NCAA Conference Realignment & Expansion Message Boards
NCAA Map

Discussions by Conference:
  It is currently Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:11 am

Help support CollegeSportsInfo.com by shopping

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 129 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Big XII Break-Up?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 8:08 pm 
Offline
All-Conference
All-Conference

Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2003 11:18 pm
Posts: 758
The only way New Mexico gets in the Big XII if one of the current members leaves, even then they would make a hard push at Arkansas first then probally BYU or Utah before New Mexico.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Big XII Break-Up?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:57 pm 
Offline
Junior
Junior

Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:33 pm
Posts: 116
I am bringing this back into this thread because I don't want to hijack the other thread.


Quote:
Big 12 is a top conference. Its about as good as you are going to find academically and athletically in the country. Texas is the top dog in the conference, I don't know where you keep getting at leaving at or booting members or forming a new conference.


It is a solid conference. IMO, it is clearly the #5 Div I conference in the nation at this point. You can argue it, but I don't think that is inaccurate.

1/1A) Big 10/Pac 10 - best combo of money, large schools, top academics, top athletics, and research institutions.
3) ACC - a number of VERY good acedemic schools, excellent football and basketball and domination of the eastern seaboard. Shared research between members and by individual member schools doesn't sound like it is at the Pac 10/Big 10 level.
4) SEC - top level sports, the best money, second tier acedemics.
5) Big XII - You can argue that the only edge the SEC has over the Big XII is financial. I don't think that is true, but even if it is, that is enough.
6) Big East - The big east is ahead by miles in basketball and market share, but that was a huge hit in football.
7) MWC - you could argue they are #6 because they are much better in football. Certainly if the split happens, yeah.
8) CUSA - Has a chance to move up one spot.
9) WAC - The WAC at then end of the day is better than the sunbelt. But they lack the legs to be anything more than a regional conference. La Tech is cutting their throat playing out of region and UNT wisely realized they would be too.
10) Sunbelt - really what most conferences used to be, in a way.

UT wants to be in a Big 10/Pac 10 level conference in terms of acedemics and esteem. They won't be allowed to just go to one of those two conferences leaving the other Texas schools behind. I question whether the Big XII as currently constituted has the motivation as a conference to ever reach that level of acedemic excellence. I think that is the perception at UT as well, but acknowledge that is speculation. (In my defense, I did go to UT when the SWC was failing and I have lived in Texas for 21 years).

That only leaves one option if they are going to pursue that goal. That is why I think in the next 5-15 years UT will have created their own conference with A&M and OU and some others.

I do think I made mistakes in my suggestions of schools that might be invited earlier in this thread, trying to get to 12 schools. The realities of the region suggest that if they will make their own conference it will be a small conference. Likely 8 schools, possibly 9 schools at most. I am thinking along the lines of the MWC model--- bailing on smaller market and difficult schools. The MWC went with 8 schools because that was the fewest number of schools they could go with. That allowed the biggest possible TV share from the top markets in the former WAC. The money UT & A&M's TVs bring in would be larger for each school the fewer schools who share it. If things were to fall right, the new conference might be able to bring in just under the number of TVs that the Big 12 has with 8-9 schools.

I think they will in this one manner follow the PAC 10 example. The Pac 10 has the best schools in their footprint and has the freedom to pick and choose who they want to invite when those schools "mature" and can add to their conference. It makes a LOT more sense for UT and the others to follow that model and try to leave 3-4 spots open for the right schools when they mature.

So that is where I am coming from.



Last edited by finitemanworks on Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Big XII Break-Up?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:41 am 
Offline
All-Conference
All-Conference

Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2003 11:18 pm
Posts: 758

Quote:

I think they will in this one manner follow the PAC 10 example. The Pac 10 has the best schools in their footprint and has the freedom to pick and choose who they want to invite when those schools "mature" and can add to their conference. It makes a LOT more sense for UT and the others to follow that model and try to leave 3-4 spots open for the right schools when they mature.

So that is where I am coming from.



Other schools mature? Best schools in the footprint. Hello, the Big 12 has the best 12 schools you can find in the midland regions. Kansas State, Iowa State, and Baylor are excellent schools for the Big 12 conference. Iowa State is a fine school, and in Iowa it is 55-45 ratio between Hawkeye and Cylcone fans. And both schools are in the right conferences bc of geography of the state as well. Ames is located near Des Moines which is more conncected to Kansas City (the hub of the Big 8/12) while Iowa City is located more near Chicago (the hub of the Big Ten). Its about the same status as UT and A&M in Texas.

Well considering you don't think the Big 12 is academically good enough ala the Pac 10 or Big Ten lets look at this:
AAU Schools
Big Ten - 11 (all of them)
Big 12 - 7
(Split between the Big 8 and SWC schools)
Big 8 - 5 (Colorado, Iowa St, Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska)
SWC - 3 (Texas, A&M, Rice)
Pac 10 - 7 (Arizona, California, Oregon, UCLA, USC, Stanford, Washington)
ACC- 4 (Duke, Maryland, North Carolina, Virginia)
Big East 3 - (Pittsburgh,Rutgers, Syracuse)
SEC - 2 (Florida, Vanderbilt)

The Big 12 is on par with the Pac 10 on number of AAU schools and large state schools.

Like I said before the Big 12 is 3rd overall in academics, way better than the SEC and ACC in that regard. Athletically it has to be #1 overall, I am going by strength of the main 4 sports - football, both basketballs and baseball. The money making sports. Big 12 is number if you combine those, Pac 10 gets a lot more votes in the end bc they dominate non reveune sports.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Big XII Break-Up?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:54 am 
Offline
Sophomore
Sophomore

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:44 pm
Posts: 56

Quote:

Like I said before the Big 12 is 3rd overall in academics, way better than the SEC and ACC in that regard. Athletically it has to be #1 overall, I am going by strength of the main 4 sports - football, both basketballs and baseball. The money making sports. Big 12 is number if you combine those, Pac 10 gets a lot more votes in the end bc they dominate non reveune sports.


You raise a good point about AAU status in the Big XII making it a solid academic conference. I'd still say the ACC is a better academic conference with Duke, Wake Forest, UVA, UNC, and Boston College all being top 40 universities. It does look like the Big XII would be a better academic alliance than the formation of a new Southwestern Conference and that may prevent it from happening.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Big XII Break-Up?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:33 pm 
Offline
Junior
Junior

Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:33 pm
Posts: 116

Quote:
Like I said before the Big 12 is 3rd overall in academics, way better than the SEC and ACC in that regard. Athletically it has to be #1 overall, I am going by strength of the main 4 sports - football, both basketballs and baseball. The money making sports. Big 12 is number [one] if you combine those, PAC 10 gets a lot more votes in the end bc they dominate non revenue sports.


Let's deal with the points you've put forward.

As another poster has already pointed out, the ACC is a dynamite academic conference. Who is the Duke of the Big XII? The Virgina? Wake Forrest? UNC? There is no comparison.

The Big XII's #1 academic school is UT, generally rated as on the bubble between tier 1 & tier 2. A&M is very close behind, rated at the top of tier 2 annually. [I personally think they are both a little low as are a number of the large state flagships (Michigan, Penn st., and others) --- I am guessing this is because of freshman retention levels. I suspect both are perceived as tier 1 schools by other universities in part because their combination of large school size plus top academics may help give these schools an international esteem that similarly ranked smaller schools may not possess, but that is pure speculation (and I acknowledge that view may be flavored by where I hail from).]

THAT is the academic strength of the conference. These are huge Schools with great academics; not 20K schools with solid academics. Those two would be a huge part of the academic strength of any SWC that came about. When you talk about great academic conferences, you are talking about schools that are tier 1 schools, not the collection of tier 2 schools. Beyond sometimes UT and possibly A&M, where are the other Big XII schools that are crucial to the conference's academic reputation?

The Big XII is one of the better collections of 12 schools you can find in this central region. But is that what UT wants? Does UT need to be in a 12 team conference to get the TV money they get today? Does UT want to be affiliated with 11 other schools, some of which they may not like or respect? Or are they looking at their options? The article suggests UT, OU, and others have talked about other options. I want to know what options they looked at. That is the point behind my attempts to figure things out. If you don't want to know what they might have discussed...well... that is your perogative. I find the idea an interesting one.

The Big XII's current top dog athletic standing argument is a red herring IMO. In 3 years, it is very conceivable that the ACC will have passed the Big XII in basketball and possibly in football as well. Does it change the view of the Big 10 or the PAC 10 as premier academic conferences and the elite conferences overall that the Big XII has had more teams in the FB and BB mix lately? No.

The Big XII's strengths are UT, OU, Tech, OSU, and K St. in football, UT, OU, OSU, Missou, Kansas, and Iowa St. in basketball. K. St. and Iowa St. are the only schools out of that bunch that I'd imagine might get passed on if a SWC plan did go into affect. So is the athletics argument a moot point? I think so. One of the top 5 conference is going to be top dog every year.

(Now you will note that I blew off Nebraska and Colorado in the football discussion. I think both will return to prominence (consistent top 25 or higher) one day, but maybe not soon. I think Nebraska may be a coach or looser academic standards/conference away. With the scandal it may be a while and a new coach for Colorado as well. Again, just opinions, I think Colorado would definitely be a candidate for any SWC anyway. )


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Big XII Break-Up?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:40 pm 
Offline
Junior
Junior

Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:33 pm
Posts: 116
As I conceded Memphis like 2 pages ago, I won't be answering any more posts that use mississippi markets as the crux of it's arguements.

That horse is dead and in the ground.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Big XII Break-Up?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:54 pm 
Online
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am
Posts: 3811

Quote:
[quote author=sportskc board=news thread=1115231403 post=1124520104]

The Big XII's #1 academic school is UT, generally rated as on the bubble between tier 1 & tier 2. A&M is very close behind, rated at the top of tier 2 annually.


US News has the breakdown as such:

Texas #52
Tex A&M #60
Iowa #60
Baylor #78
Colorado #78
Missouri #85
Iowa State #85
Kansas #97
Nebraska #97
Oklahoma #109

not that they are the end-all-be-all in ranking schools, and not that they compare with the ACC, but 10 of the 12 Big XII schools are rated Tier 1

_________________
Image

Image@ncaasports Image csi.com/facebook

Image
Like the new CSI Userbar? Feel free to use it here and any other forums.
You can save and host it yourself or link from here.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Big XII Break-Up?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:56 pm 
Offline
Junior
Junior

Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:33 pm
Posts: 116
Lets talk esteem and conference direction for a second.

Will the Big XII ever be mentioned in the same breath as the PAC 10 and Big 10 as an acedemic conference? No.

That alone guarantees UT will always be looking for a better home.

If UT feels like the Big XII is not meeting their goals or more to the point of this article, working against their goals, I could see them taking the schools they like and leaving. If UT decides there is a better future for them as the kingpin of a new SWC, they will leave. It really is as simple as that.

And lets not talk nonsense about northern solidarity. Kansas, Missou, and Colorado aren't going to thumb their nose at what UT and OU do so they can play Nebraska in conference. What is Nebraska without the Oklahoma and Texas schools? A cross between BYU and Utah. A MWC school. Granted a nice MWC school, but a MWC school anyway.





Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Big XII Break-Up?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:59 pm 
Offline
Junior
Junior

Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:33 pm
Posts: 116

Quote:
US News has the breakdown as such:

Texas #52
Tex A&M #60
Baylor #78
Colorado #78
Missouri #85
Iowa State #85
Kansas #97
Nebraska #97
Oklahoma #109


I believe tier 1 cuts off around 50 doesn't it? And tier 3 starts after what 120ish?


Quote:
not that they are the end-all-be-all in ranking schools, and not that they compare with the ACC, but 10 of the 12 Big XII schools are rated Tier 1


You had Iowa in there.... And yes, as you note, they do not compare to the ACC. Since you have the rankings right in front of you, why don't you post the ACC rankings?


Last edited by finitemanworks on Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Big XII Break-Up?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:53 pm 
Offline
All-Conference
All-Conference

Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2003 11:18 pm
Posts: 758
I don't know who is the bigger quack, FiniteManWorks or tigersharktwo.

Nebraska is just a MWC school, Villanova is the savior of the Big East. Who is crazier?

But here is the ACC rankings, so I stand corrected on that. But in Big Ten terms (AAU schools), Big 12 stands up there.
5. Duke
23. Virginia
27. North Carolina
27. Wake Forest
37. Georgia Tech
40. Boston College
55. Maryland
55. Miami
78. Clemson
78. NC State
78. Virginia Tech
109. Florida State

Tier One ends at 120, Tier 3 starts at 121.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Big XII Break-Up?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:06 pm 
As much as Texas may express reservations about the Big12 design, and academics are brought into the equation as well, Texas will want and need to continue association with flag-ship, land grant, and high profile schools in the region. The Big12 offers them this.
For Texas to go to the PAC10 or Big10, distance and geography become a major issue, and may be a troubling factor to the level that the status quo looks better.
While Texas may have a bit of a superiority attitude of themselves in terms of size and name, their track record in the Big12 does not suggest they dominate or that they are a bottom feeder. In this regard, athletics wise, the Big12 looks most appropriate. If Texas insists that they have a conference whereby dominance is guaranteed, then that is arrogance and another matter. Maybe Texas wants a structure whereby they prevail such as Florida State did in the ACC prior to that conference's recent expansion.


Top
  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 129 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Quinn and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
 

 




Looking for College Sports apparel? Support our partner:








Support Our Partners: Search Engine Marketing - Search Engine Optimization - Search Engine Training - Online Marketing for Restuarants

Subway Map Shirts - Food and Travel

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group