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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 11:18 am 
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Now that it is apparent that Marshall, and maybe UCF, are leaving the MAC, what is the impact of the defections on the conference? I suspect that many other MAC fans agree with me is saying "Good riddance to MU" and "Why did we need UCF in the first place?". Both have tried to leave the conference since they entered, UCF's membership is only 2 years old. The MAC offered them full membership last month and I was releived when UCF declined. The CUSA didn't want MU 2 years ago. Both teams are foolish to pin their athletic hopes on the CUSA. Much of the rhetoric about moving up to the big time I heard when East Carolina jumped from the CAA to CUSA. Have you seen College Game Day in Greenville lately?

I expect that we will soon see the CUSA go the way of the Metro and Great Midwest conferences that preceded it. I doesn't have any regional identity and there is no history between the member institutions, except for the recycled teams from the Metro and GMC. It's just lost 3 major basketball powers (Cincinnati, Louisville, and Marquette) and replaced them with one minor power (Tulsa). Gone also are two of their best football teams to be replaced by the Herd, the Knights and 2 of the worst programs in Div I. Also, CUSA faces other defections as recently admitted member TCU appears poised to jump to the MWC.

I hope Marshall enjoys those big-time gridiron match ups with UAB and Rice while they last. Playing football against SMU in Dallas might seem like fun but their non-grid teams are going to get chopped up big time. MU is fortunate that they won't have to send their basketball team to face Marquette, Cincinnati, or Louisville. I can see the day that Marshall comes hat in hand, for the second time to the MAC and asks for shelter finding the CUSA gone and none of the stable conferences wanting to adopt a troubled football that has no media market. I hope this time the MAC closes the door forever. If the MAC needs to expand there are any number of better schools in the Gateway Conference (Illinois State and Western Kentucky come immediately to mind).

As for me, I'm looking forward to a MAC w/o MU and UCF. I have followed the MAC since before Marshall was booted out before for NCAA violations and it was a great conference then and it will only improve when schools that don't value what it is are gone.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 3:24 pm 
I disagree with parts of what you convey, Virginian. Conference USA will become more regional and Marshall will fit well along with UCF and others. They plan to become all-sports with 12 teams and a playoff.
Won/loss records change, evolve, and regress. There is no permanent impediment that UCF, Marshall, ECU etc. will not beome more comeptitive in bb and other olympic sports.

Sure, C-USA is not the SEC or the ACC. But these schools want the best home possible. Becoming more regional (southern, from Dallas/Ft. Worth to Greenville, North Carolina) with distinct divisions and "all sports", they will survive and be better. Improved rivalries can be cultivated.

I agree with you that UCF is not a good MAC fit. And certainly other MAC schools have risen up to challenge Marshall's recent history of dominance. However, reputation and geography remain among the transition factors, and in the case of these two, being considered for membership elsewhere seems very logical.

Loyalty is not that critical anymore. Ask Miami, BC, VPI, TCU, Arkansas, etc. that have jumped conferences and changed the landscape. I expect the MAC will be reshaped a bit and will survive as well. They certainly have a few teams that deserve more recognition than is rendered.



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 8:53 am 
I keep wondering why I'm hearing that C USA is losing two of it's "powerhouses" to the big East ('b' intentional) Louisville and Cincinnatti are not powerhouses. Cincy has at least 2 conference losses in football already. Lousville has lost 1 to a team that also has 2 conference losses. I will be surprised if they win the conference, but if they do it will be for a lack of playing TCU or Southern Miss.
it seems C USA has actually strengthened itself with the new additions and a championship game. the regional look they now take will help with rivalries and they are at least going to be as strong as the big East or the MWC. (remember, Louisville and Cincy can't make up for the loss of V-Tech, much less Miami and BC) for the big East to keep a BCS berth over the MWC and C USA would be leaving the whole thing open to litigation for lost revenue.
can you really say that the big East is a Power Conference now?
who's the power? Pitt is having a good year. but who else? Rutgers? UConn?
call a spade a spade. with more teams C USA improves its lot even with the loss of Louisville and Cincy. (in football, basketball is another story, but baseball it's an improvement as well.)
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Now that it is apparent that Marshall, and maybe UCF, are leaving the MAC, what is the impact of the defections on the conference? I suspect that many other MAC fans agree with me is saying "Good riddance to MU" and "Why did we need UCF in the first place?". Both have tried to leave the conference since they entered, UCF's membership is only 2 years old. The MAC offered them full membership last month and I was releived when UCF declined. The CUSA didn't want MU 2 years ago. Both teams are foolish to pin their athletic hopes on the CUSA. Much of the rhetoric about moving up to the big time I heard when East Carolina jumped from the CAA to CUSA. Have you seen College Game Day in Greenville lately?

I expect that we will soon see the CUSA go the way of the Metro and Great Midwest conferences that preceded it. I doesn't have any regional identity and there is no history between the member institutions, except for the recycled teams from the Metro and GMC. It's just lost 3 major basketball powers (Cincinnati, Louisville, and Marquette) and replaced them with one minor power (Tulsa). Gone also are two of their best football teams to be replaced by the Herd, the Knights and 2 of the worst programs in Div I. Also, CUSA faces other defections as recently admitted member TCU appears poised to jump to the MWC.

I hope Marshall enjoys those big-time gridiron match ups with UAB and Rice while they last. Playing football against SMU in Dallas might seem like fun but their non-grid teams are going to get chopped up big time. MU is fortunate that they won't have to send their basketball team to face Marquette, Cincinnati, or Louisville. I can see the day that Marshall comes hat in hand, for the second time to the MAC and asks for shelter finding the CUSA gone and none of the stable conferences wanting to adopt a troubled football that has no media market. I hope this time the MAC closes the door forever. If the MAC needs to expand there are any number of better schools in the Gateway Conference (Illinois State and Western Kentucky come immediately to mind).

As for me, I'm looking forward to a MAC w/o MU and UCF. I have followed the MAC since before Marshall was booted out before for NCAA violations and it was a great conference then and it will only improve when schools that don't value what it is are gone.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:46 am 
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Virginian, don't be surprised if this thread is moved soon as this board is for posting links to/copies of news articles. Just a note,

I agree with you that a) UCF was a bad fit for the MAC, b) the MAC does involve a good regional identity and sense of solidarity, and that c) a move by Marshall to CUSA is not a huge step up, if at all. However, I disagree with you in two areas:

1) CUSA does stand to prosper, no matter how lightly, due to increased regionalism on their part and the general thinning of the national football herd. CUSA will soon join the ranks of the SEC, Big 12, ACC and (if they're still able) the MAC in hosting a conference championship game. While that may not rake in the same dough as the first three, it will be national attention and likely yield more per-school revenue than the MAC. Now, whether or not it offsets the sost to yield a greater net-profit margin, who knows.

2) Yeah, Rice is not so hot, but neither is Buffalo, Kent State, EMU... Marshall will step from what is percieved to be a good small conference to what is perceived to be a good larger conference. For all the press NIU and others have brought the MAC, they also stand perilously close to losing 4 members to 1-A attendance requirements. Memphis, So. Miss, TCU, UCF, SMU all offer some decent competition in some decent TV markets. Assuming Marshall is the equivalent of Louisville in football, then it can be said CUSA will end up stronger as a football conference assuming all parties now stay.

For the record, I'd prefer Marshall stayed in the MAC and helped the league reshape itself by adding Temple, MTSU and ECU. Unlikely, now. Alas...


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:01 am 
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After Va Tech huge loss to WVU last week, don't think anyone is concerned about replacing Va Tech in the BE.
Miami has always been the big loss to make up.

We have to look at future potential to see if the BE will maintain the commanding lead over Conf USA and MWC.

The problem with Conf USA has always been exposure. Trying to build a conference in the shadows of the SEC and Big 12 is a tough sell.

The Big East has the TV markets to build future momentum. There is no BCS competition in the states of New York, West Virginia, Connecticut, and New Jersey.

Factor in Kentucky and Ohio with one BCS member and the Big East has a big advantage in future exposure and requiting.

Will it be enough to keep the Big East in the BCS. Who knows, however, it will keep the Big East a head of Conf USA.

I have to agree with Virginian, Conf USA is very spreadout with the addition of Marshall and possible CFU.

It is going to be hard to build close rivalries. Marshall will move to the Big East the first chance it gets. Marshall goal is to be in the same conference with WVU. Same for CFU to join the same conference as USF.

The postive side to the new Conf USA is the ability to build on the old SWC with four Texas schools.

MWC is very interesting. I think the Big East and MWC should form a partnership as both have the potential to be the best two conferences after the ACC, Big 10, Pac 10, SEC, and Big 12.

If the MWC snags TCU, Conf USA is in big trouble before it gets out of the gate.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 12:07 pm 
Evem after that great win by WVU, the big East would give its left reproductive organ to keep V Tech. They are above the rest of the teams in the conference and in football, worth Louisville and Cincy both.

of course the big East will grow with South Florida. Don't let that pesky road trip to Southern Miss, where they were routed, and brought only 100 fans hurt their chances. We know their road trips will be further in the big East but with such high profile opponents such as UConn and Rutgers, how could they refuse. I'd fly 1500 miles to see the bulls take on the huskies.

On a serious note, the new Big East will be a good conference, but let's not over-inflate the teams they are picking up. Basketball will be great, other sports will suffer travel cost for schools such as USF only, but football will be about the same as the new C USA. I don't see it being fair to let them keep their BCS bid when the justifiying argument of the BCS is that in these conferences are the teams that have played for the last 25 National Titles. If that be the case then the Big East just lost its two.

Why Marshall, Tulsa, Rice, and SMU joined C USA and Why will TCU stay in C USA? 5 bowl tie ins, $20 million + TV contract, low travel cost with 2 divisions, strong football and one of the best baseball conferences, and a growing lobby for inclusion in the BCS or a new system. The remaining Big East teams aren't that much ahead of or behind any of C USA. They are very equal.
Quote:
After Va Tech huge loss to WVU last week, don't think anyone is concerned about replacing Va Tech in the BE.
Miami has always been the big loss to make up.

We have to look at future potential to see if the BE will maintain the commanding lead over Conf USA and MWC.

The problem with Conf USA has always been exposure. Trying to build a conference in the shadows of the SEC and Big 12 is a tough sell.

The Big East has the TV markets to build future momentum. There is no BCS competition in the states of New York, West Virginia, Connecticut, and New Jersey.

Factor in Kentucky and Ohio with one BCS member and the Big East has a big advantage in future exposure and requiting.

Will it be enough to keep the Big East in the BCS. Who knows, however, it will keep the Big East a head of Conf USA.

I have to agree with Virginian, Conf USA is very spreadout with the addition of Marshall and possible CFU.

It is going to be hard to build close rivalries. Marshall will move to the Big East the first chance it gets. Marshall goal is to be in the same conference with WVU. Same for CFU to join the same conference as USF.

The postive side to the new Conf USA is the ability to build on the old SWC with four Texas schools.

MWC is very interesting. I think the Big East and MWC should form a partnership as both have the potential to be the best two conferences after the ACC, Big 10, Pac 10, SEC, and Big 12.

If the MWC snags TCU, Conf USA is in big trouble before it gets out of the gate.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:05 pm 

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After Va Tech huge loss to WVU last week, don't think anyone is concerned about replacing Va Tech in the BE. Miami has always been the big loss to make up.

Lash, I agree with most of your discussion, with a few comments. While VT may not carry the history or perennial Top 5 cache that Miami carries, they're at least perennial Top 20, they travel well and are (lately and projected) a better TV draw than most (all?) remaining BE schools. I'd have to imagine in the scheme of the BCS, the loss of VT is quite big as well. Miami has the titles, but VT is far from Rutgers.


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It is going to be hard (for CUSA) to build close rivalries. Marshall will move to the Big East the first chance it gets. Marshall goal is to be in the same conference with WVU. Same for CFU to join the same conference as USF.

While CUSA is far from perfect, the potential is there. You said the BE is trying to stay ahead of CUSA and MWC; It could be said that all CUSA needs to do is stay ahead of the MAC, Sun Belt and WAC. And while Marshall is suffering something of WVU envy, I'd assume they merely want equal status. If they could find that apart from WVU, so be it.

You're right about CUSA's potential seeming tenuous, though, as UCF, Marshall, ECU and TCU all appear inviting targets for future movements. Earlier newsposts suggested the conference would add more than 12 to compensate for that eventuality. Will they still consider this? WIll it frustrate their efforts to keep the family happy and end up forcing someone out? We'll see.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:34 pm 
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Guys, the point that was being made was not a slam against Va Tech. Va Tech is a very good football school.

The point being made was that if Miami had remained in the Big East would any one in the BE been overly concerned with Va Tech and Boston College heading off to the ACC.

There is a reason why the BE offered Miami 45 million dollar deal for five years.

Only Notre Dame and possibly Penn State could demand that deal in the Big East.

By the way Va Tech did place forth in the conference last year and has games remaining with Miami and at Pitt this year.

Miami, Temple, Rutgers, Army, Navy, Duke, North Carolina, Vanderbilt would continue to acquire a BCS bid. Maybe an ugly bid, neverless, a BCS bid.

Replace Miami with almost every other team and would you come up with the same results.

Once again Va Tech or BC are no Miami and can not demand the same respect.





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 1:33 pm 
I totally agree with your point on Miami.

The point I was trying to make is that Louisville and Cincy don't make up for Va Tech and BC.

And, the Big East lost Miami. The Big East lost a huge amount of value.

With these losses, and the new additions, even assuming that South Florida joins the Big East, Does the new Big East still deserve BCS status?

Is the new Big East any stronger than the new C USA and the possibly new MWC (with additions of WAC schools.) or the current MWC?

That is the point I was making. IMO if they are ahead, it is slightly and nothing worth noting. South Florida, Louisville, and Cincy are steps down (from where the Big East now with BC, Miami, and Va Tech). Cincy is getting batterred in C USA competition, South Florida has been beaten (narrowly) by TCU and (handily 27 - 6 ) to Southern Miss while Louisville has lost to South Florida and won against the bottom rung of the conference.
The Big East is not a power conference any longer.

That doesn't mean that the team that wins the Big East isn't a top team and deserving of BCS recognition.

The same argument can be said of MWC and C USA.

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Guys, the point that was being made was not a slam against Va Tech. Va Tech is a very good football school.

The point being made was that if Miami had remained in the Big East would any one in the BE been overly concerned with Va Tech and Boston College heading off to the ACC.

There is a reason why the BE offered Miami 45 million dollar deal for five years.

Only Notre Dame and possibly Penn State could demand that deal in the Big East.

By the way Va Tech did place forth in the conference last year and has games remaining with Miami and at Pitt this year.

Miami, Temple, Rutgers, Army, Navy, Duke, North Carolina, Vanderbilt would continue to acquire a BCS bid. Maybe an ugly bid, neverless, a BCS bid.

Replace Miami with almost every other team and would you come up with the same results.

Once again Va Tech or BC are no Miami and can not demand the same respect.





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:22 pm 
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K Rob, if we want to split hairs

WVU lost to Cincinnati, and WVU just pounded Va Tech with both games a WVU.

Either Va Tech is overrated or the new Big East is going to surprise a lot people and be much better than the ACC expansion folks would like to believe.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 5:16 pm 
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K Rob, if we want to split hairs

WVU lost to Cincinnati, and WVU just pounded Va Tech with both games a WVU.

Either Va Tech is overrated or the new Big East is going to surprise a lot people and be much better than the ACC expansion folks would like to believe.

In this case, VT was grossly overrated given their mediocrity last year and their weak schedule to date.
Top 25? Yes. Top 5? No.

It must be nice to be able to ride that NC appearance and their association with Miami into the preseason rankings every year.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:00 am 
The point I'm making is that Cincy has lost 2 C USA games. At least 1 at home.

So, as our logic seems to go, if WVU beat Va Tech 28 - 7, then Cincy should beat WVU, then Cincy loses to Southern Miss (at home) then Southern Miss should beat Va Tech or WVU?

I'm a C USA fan, a former college player, and current football coach. It doesn't work that way. Sports are mental and whoever shows up that day wins.

Year in, year out, Va Tech is going to be stronger, and show up better, than current Big East teams, the left overs from the split (no offense intended) and the new guys.

As for the strength I want to point out that while Louisville and Cincy are 4 - 0 against the Big East (including Syracuse and WVU) they are ranked 3 and 7 in C USA. Cincy beat Army by 4 points at home! Lost to UAB by at least 13 points. Va Tech would beat them. Louisville's only loss is to USF who was assaulted by Southern Miss who's offense is totally anemic. They have TCU next week which will be an oil check.

I'll admit, the additions to C USA aren't power houses either, but the Big East is taking a much bigger hit with Miami and Va Tech.

BIG HIT.

That's all I'm saying.

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K Rob, if we want to split hairs

WVU lost to Cincinnati, and WVU just pounded Va Tech with both games a WVU.

Either Va Tech is overrated or the new Big East is going to surprise a lot people and be much better than the ACC expansion folks would like to believe.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 12:28 pm 
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K Rob, yea! yea! - now that were are resorting to smack talk lets go.

I am a fan of Miami and think the school is joining the newest Big 2 Little 10 conference.

If FSU last year earned a BCS bid with four loses so do the new Big East.

Who has FSU beat this year? They consistently play in a basketball conference and may have some help with Miami comming on board. At least the ACC will have a replacement in Miami when FSU is down.

As for Va Tech and the new ACC, you are way too optimistic. Va Tech has lost two straight to WVU and several loses to Syracuse over the course of the BE football history.

Va Tech is at best the forth best football team in the BE and BC is at best the fifth.

Again the only true lose the BE had during the ACC raid was Miami.

The ACC can keep dreaming if FSU and Ga Tech think they have made the ACC a new versis of the SEC.




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:37 am 
I didn't know we were talking smack.

I won't argue the situation in the ACC because it's going to be a Florida dominated conference most years. I agree with you. I'll say this however. Right now, FSU is down, much like Miami in the mid 90's, but not as far down. They'll be back and the two sunshine state schools will have great battles for the ACC crown.

Let's look at the Big East.

By your own numbers you're saying that Miami is #1, Va Tech is #4, and BC #5.

They are being replaced by Louisville, Cincy and USF. Their current C USA rankings. . . Louisville #3, Cincy #6, and USF #7. Louisville still has TCU ahead and has already lost to USF. Cincy and Louisville still have each other to play so one of them will drop again. USF is out of the championship race after 4 conference games in which they lost 2 (and how did Southern Miss run it up on them? they have a horrible offense.), and will have to scramble to be bowl eligible because of 1-AA wins.

Those rankings are from what you've called a commandingly weaker conference.

Average the rankings. The Big East teams leaving have an average of a 3 ranking, in a tough conference.

The C USA replacements average ranking is over 5. Once again, in a weaker conference and it is one htat will probably drop further.

Miami is the major credible loss to the Big East. But the replacements they have coming don't make up for the loss of Va Tech and BC.

Put the replacements together and they don't make up for Miami.

Put the replacements together and they nowhere near come close to the loss of Miami, Va Tech, and BC.

My point I've been trying to make for the past week is that the Big East just got worse. C USA may have held ground by going to 12, any gains or losses were small.

The difference between the two conferences just got alot smaller.

The 3 teams going to the Big East will profit I do believe. Less travel, more rivalries within close proximity. They'll get better. So will C USA.

If the Big East gets to keep the BCS berth, then one should be given to C USA and the MWC (although one of its better schools got skull drug by a WAC team)

Another thing I won't argue with you. Basketball. The Big East will be huge, and the profits will help all sports.
Quote:
K Rob, yea! yea! - now that were are resorting to smack talk lets go.

I am a fan of Miami and think the school is joining the newest Big 2 Little 10 conference.

If FSU last year earned a BCS bid with four loses so do the new Big East.

Who has FSU beat this year? They consistently play in a basketball conference and may have some help with Miami comming on board. At least the ACC will have a replacement in Miami when FSU is down.

As for Va Tech and the new ACC, you are way too optimistic. Va Tech has lost two straight to WVU and several loses to Syracuse over the course of the BE football history.

Va Tech is at best the forth best football team in the BE and BC is at best the fifth.

Again the only true lose the BE had during the ACC raid was Miami.

The ACC can keep dreaming if FSU and Ga Tech think they have made the ACC a new versis of the SEC.




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:37 am 
I didn't know we were talking smack.

I won't argue the situation in the ACC because it's going to be a Florida dominated conference most years. I agree with you. I'll say this however. Right now, FSU is down, much like Miami in the mid 90's, but not as far down. They'll be back and the two sunshine state schools will have great battles for the ACC crown.

Let's look at the Big East.

By your own numbers you're saying that Miami is #1, Va Tech is #4, and BC #5.

They are being replaced by Louisville, Cincy and USF. Their current C USA rankings. . . Louisville #3, Cincy #6, and USF #7. Louisville still has TCU ahead and has already lost to USF. Cincy and Louisville still have each other to play so one of them will drop again. USF is out of the championship race after 4 conference games in which they lost 2 (and how did Southern Miss run it up on them? they have a horrible offense.), and will have to scramble to be bowl eligible because of 1-AA wins.

Those rankings are from what you've called a commandingly weaker conference.

Average the rankings. The Big East teams leaving have an average of a 3 ranking, in a tough conference.

The C USA replacements average ranking is over 5. Once again, in a weaker conference and it is one htat will probably drop further.

Miami is the major credible loss to the Big East. But the replacements they have coming don't make up for the loss of Va Tech and BC.

Put the replacements together and they don't make up for Miami.

Put the replacements together and they nowhere near come close to the loss of Miami, Va Tech, and BC.

My point I've been trying to make for the past week is that the Big East just got worse. C USA may have held ground by going to 12, any gains or losses were small.

The difference between the two conferences just got alot smaller.

The 3 teams going to the Big East will profit I do believe. Less travel, more rivalries within close proximity. They'll get better. So will C USA.

If the Big East gets to keep the BCS berth, then one should be given to C USA and the MWC (although one of its better schools got skull drug by a WAC team)

Another thing I won't argue with you. Basketball. The Big East will be huge, and the profits will help all sports.
Quote:
K Rob, yea! yea! - now that were are resorting to smack talk lets go.

I am a fan of Miami and think the school is joining the newest Big 2 Little 10 conference.

If FSU last year earned a BCS bid with four loses so do the new Big East.

Who has FSU beat this year? They consistently play in a basketball conference and may have some help with Miami comming on board. At least the ACC will have a replacement in Miami when FSU is down.

As for Va Tech and the new ACC, you are way too optimistic. Va Tech has lost two straight to WVU and several loses to Syracuse over the course of the BE football history.

Va Tech is at best the forth best football team in the BE and BC is at best the fifth.

Again the only true lose the BE had during the ACC raid was Miami.

The ACC can keep dreaming if FSU and Ga Tech think they have made the ACC a new versis of the SEC.




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