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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:37 am 
I didn't know we were talking smack.

I won't argue the situation in the ACC because it's going to be a Florida dominated conference most years. I agree with you. I'll say this however. Right now, FSU is down, much like Miami in the mid 90's, but not as far down. They'll be back and the two sunshine state schools will have great battles for the ACC crown.

Let's look at the Big East.

By your own numbers you're saying that Miami is #1, Va Tech is #4, and BC #5.

They are being replaced by Louisville, Cincy and USF. Their current C USA rankings. . . Louisville #3, Cincy #6, and USF #7. Louisville still has TCU ahead and has already lost to USF. Cincy and Louisville still have each other to play so one of them will drop again. USF is out of the championship race after 4 conference games in which they lost 2 (and how did Southern Miss run it up on them? they have a horrible offense.), and will have to scramble to be bowl eligible because of 1-AA wins.

Those rankings are from what you've called a commandingly weaker conference.

Average the rankings. The Big East teams leaving have an average of a 3 ranking, in a tough conference.

The C USA replacements average ranking is over 5. Once again, in a weaker conference and it is one htat will probably drop further.

Miami is the major credible loss to the Big East. But the replacements they have coming don't make up for the loss of Va Tech and BC.

Put the replacements together and they don't make up for Miami.

Put the replacements together and they nowhere near come close to the loss of Miami, Va Tech, and BC.

My point I've been trying to make for the past week is that the Big East just got worse. C USA may have held ground by going to 12, any gains or losses were small.

The difference between the two conferences just got alot smaller.

The 3 teams going to the Big East will profit I do believe. Less travel, more rivalries within close proximity. They'll get better. So will C USA.

If the Big East gets to keep the BCS berth, then one should be given to C USA and the MWC (although one of its better schools got skull drug by a WAC team)

Another thing I won't argue with you. Basketball. The Big East will be huge, and the profits will help all sports.
Quote:
K Rob, yea! yea! - now that were are resorting to smack talk lets go.

I am a fan of Miami and think the school is joining the newest Big 2 Little 10 conference.

If FSU last year earned a BCS bid with four loses so do the new Big East.

Who has FSU beat this year? They consistently play in a basketball conference and may have some help with Miami comming on board. At least the ACC will have a replacement in Miami when FSU is down.

As for Va Tech and the new ACC, you are way too optimistic. Va Tech has lost two straight to WVU and several loses to Syracuse over the course of the BE football history.

Va Tech is at best the forth best football team in the BE and BC is at best the fifth.

Again the only true lose the BE had during the ACC raid was Miami.

The ACC can keep dreaming if FSU and Ga Tech think they have made the ACC a new versis of the SEC.




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 12:36 pm 
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K Rob, yea! yea! - now that were are resorting to smack talk lets go.

I am a fan of Miami and think the school is joining the newest Big 2 Little 10 conference.

If FSU last year earned a BCS bid with four loses so do the new Big East.

Who has FSU beat this year? They consistently play in a basketball conference and may have some help with Miami comming on board. At least the ACC will have a replacement in Miami when FSU is down.

As for Va Tech and the new ACC, you are way too optimistic. Va Tech has lost two straight to WVU and several loses to Syracuse over the course of the BE football history.

Va Tech is at best the forth best football team in the BE and BC is at best the fifth.

Again the only true lose the BE had during the ACC raid was Miami.

The ACC can keep dreaming if FSU and Ga Tech think they have made the ACC a new versis of the SEC.




Lash, you're avoiding the question. Who will the Big East replace Miami with? Pittsburgh isn't going to do the trick. Neither is Syracuse or WVU for that matter. Louisville is at best just another GT, hardly an awe-inspiring football powerhouse. And don't even get me started on Cincy. ::) ::) The less said about UConn, Rutgers, and South Florida the better. Furthermore, are you trying to tell me that Cincinnati has the same name recognition as Va. Tech in football?? Yes, VT is no Miami or Michigan, but they're no Kentucky or Vandy either. What you're trying to do is replace Auburn with Wake Forest essentially. Does this make any sense to you?? Even Boston College has more name recognition than Cincy in football. Replacing those two is harder than you think, IMO.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 2:50 pm 
1) Based on his history, I don't think Lash is laying waste to the credibility of VT and BC. His biggest point is the impact of Miami being as big or bigger than the loss of the other two, which arguably can be considered true. But, it's also immaterial; All three are gone, and it's safe to say the BE will be weaker next year than it is today. 'Nuff said.

But, it can also be confirmed the new BE does have some fb credibility to it. WVU, Pitt, Cuse have some history worth remembering, UConn has made some impressive strides since moving up (Go. Mr. Edsall, a former GT coach! ;) )... Carrying the BE name next year will be schools recognizable enough, with enough clout, fan support and TV attraction to keep people's attention. More people will attend BE games than MWC, I beleive. And the average will be better than at CUSA. The future will be interesting though, especially under the notion of possible further expansion.

2) Back to the issue of this thread, the MAC had best be paying attention to item #1 above. Surviving the loss of Marshall and UCF is one thing, finding any prosperity in the 1A should any other schools leave will prove a tall order. Should the BE truly exceed expectations in fb, that will be one more major conference stealing the limelight within MAC territory. Surely Toledo will lobby themselves for future "BE" inclusion should the basketball and football schools part ways. And notice that some schools discussed for MAC re-expansion (Temple, ECU) are also considered candidates for the BE should they seek #10-12.

The MAC is a good conference, but without Marshall they've become trapped in a position that does not lend itself to growing beyond mid-major status.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 2:52 pm 
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I think it is funny how people seem to always want to down the leftover Big East schools. The Big East has had more different champions than the New ACC has had since Florida State arrived. Since its inception, West Virginia, SU, Va Tech and Miami have all won or shared the Big East title. Before the Big East football conference started West Virginia and Syracuse challenged or played for national titles in the eighties. What happened when Miami joined the Big East is that all these other schools lost their publicity. Everyone thought of the Big East being Miami's conference. The same thing happened to the ACC with Florida State. When you looked at these 2 conferences you think of those two teams, not Va Tech, SU, Clemson, Georgia Tech,etc. I imagine it has hurt the other schools recruiting just a little. Some recruits might have decided to go to the SEC, Big 12, OR Big Ten because they weren't going to have a great chance at a conference Championship and BCS bid unless they were accepted at Miami or Fla. State.
Now the rest of the Big East schools are out from under Miami's shadow again. I actually think it will help their recruiting. They can sell a BCS bid that the Big East will most likely still have. SU , West Virginia and Pitt will be able to recruit players better now that they have a better chance. That Miami road trip loss will be gone now too. The new additions will help too. Louisville and South Florida are only going to get better with The BCS to recruit too. UCONN is going to only get better. How many teams that have moved up to 1a have done as well as UCONN has in their first 2 years. Rutgers is 4-4 this year with more wins possible. Too me it looks like what the Big East will become is a competitive league now that their" superpower" Miami is gone. No they will not have a national champion every year but no league does.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 4:26 pm 
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Reality check:

Big East has good potential but will take a while to reach that potential (in football-bb already there).

USF and UConn are not household names in fb. Neither has been in I-A 5 years.

Rutgers and Cincinnati-Rutgers played the first game and hasn't really done anything else in the last 135 years. Cincinnati has played Miami (the one in Ohio) more than just about anyone in I-A has played another school. I believe its the third most played series. That is basically their only claim to fame.

Louisville and Pittsburg have had 1 or 2 years with any impact on the national scene in the last 20 years. Pittsburg was very good in the early 80s and 70s. Louisville was nothing prior to the last 15 years.

That is 6 of the 8 members. And of the 2 with strong programs in the last 20 years (WVU and SU), both have been in a slump the last 2 or 3 years.

They need a couple of schools to really turn things around or they will play themselves out of the BCS bid in 2007. Pittsburg is certainly a good candidate. Louisville and USF are unlikely in the next 4 years. So SU or WVU need to improve quickly.

They have 2 schools with MNCs, 2 schools new to I-A and 2 schools that have never done anything in fb. 4 of their 8 members have been in the BCS.

MWC has 1 school with MNC, no schools new to I-A and 3 schools (SDSU, UNLV, UNM) that have never done much in fb.

Future CUSA has 2 schools with MNC, 1 with I-AA championships, 2 other schools (assuming UCF joins) new to I-A, 3 schools that haven't done much in fb(Tulsa, Rice, Memphis), 4 schools with some accomplishments (UH,USM, Tulane, ECU). 4 of their 12 members have been in the BCS or pre-BCS.

The pedigree of the 3 conferences is not much different.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 10:02 am 
I totally agree. I believe from a legal standpoint that the BCS will be changed to include more conferences. It will be an easier case in court to prove that the system is exclusionary when you examine all members and compare them.
Tulane's president seems very decided on pushing the matter. Did I mention that Tulane has a law school with a program devoted to sport's law. The "magic bullet" in the case remains the undefeated season in '98 (?). Of course other schools have had the same accomplishments and been included.

I pose this question? What happens to college football if C USA and MWC are included in the BCS?


Quote:
Reality check:

Big East has good potential but will take a while to reach that potential (in football-bb already there).

USF and UConn are not household names in fb. Neither has been in I-A 5 years.

Rutgers and Cincinnati-Rutgers played the first game and hasn't really done anything else in the last 135 years. Cincinnati has played Miami (the one in Ohio) more than just about anyone in I-A has played another school. I believe its the third most played series. That is basically their only claim to fame.

Louisville and Pittsburg have had 1 or 2 years with any impact on the national scene in the last 20 years. Pittsburg was very good in the early 80s and 70s. Louisville was nothing prior to the last 15 years.

That is 6 of the 8 members. And of the 2 with strong programs in the last 20 years (WVU and SU), both have been in a slump the last 2 or 3 years.

They need a couple of schools to really turn things around or they will play themselves out of the BCS bid in 2007. Pittsburg is certainly a good candidate. Louisville and USF are unlikely in the next 4 years. So SU or WVU need to improve quickly.

They have 2 schools with MNCs, 2 schools new to I-A and 2 schools that have never done anything in fb. 4 of their 8 members have been in the BCS.

MWC has 1 school with MNC, no schools new to I-A and 3 schools (SDSU, UNLV, UNM) that have never done much in fb.

Future CUSA has 2 schools with MNC, 1 with I-AA championships, 2 other schools (assuming UCF joins) new to I-A, 3 schools that haven't done much in fb(Tulsa, Rice, Memphis), 4 schools with some accomplishments (UH,USM, Tulane, ECU). 4 of their 12 members have been in the BCS or pre-BCS.

The pedigree of the 3 conferences is not much different.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 11:36 am 
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This is a very fun thread. K Rob a lot can be learned from smack talk.

DawgNDuckFan, the team that will actually replace Miami for the Big East is a different type of team.

US Congress will ensure the Big East has an opportunity to compete for a national championship. This is all the BE basically needs for future assurance. With the Gator bowl on New Years day rotation for the BE, the championship oppotunity is all the BE needed once Miami is gone.

Va Tech and Boston College are already replaced by Louisville and Cincinnati. Both schools will bring more revenue to the future BE than both of the predecessors.



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 11:40 am 
"US Congress will ensure the Big East has an opportunity to compete for a national championship."

So basically the "Top Six" rule will be expanded to include BIG EAST? That automatic bid is gone...gone...face it...gone


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 11:51 am 
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Quote:
This is a very fun thread. K Rob a lot can be learned from smack talk.

DawgNDuckFan, the team that will actually replace Miami for the Big East is a different type of team.

US Congress will ensure the Big East has an opportunity to compete for a national championship. This is all the BE basically needs for future assurance. With the Gator bowl on New Years day rotation for the BE, the championship oppotunity is all the BE needed once Miami is gone.

Va Tech and Boston College are already replaced by Louisville and Cincinnati. Both schools will bring more revenue to the future BE than both of the predecessors.



One word: ROFLMAO!!!!!! ;D


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 12:40 pm 
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Guys, I know everyone wants US Congress to stay out of sports, however, sports (BCS) apparently can't manage other than through a monopoly system.

Do you want US Congress to stay out of other monopolies. Ma Bell, would make the same statement as the BCS. We are only providing electricity to the ones that want it or can afford it. Others be dam@d.



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 12:46 pm 
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DawgNDuck, one more point on BCS and US Congress. Either of us may not agree with US Congress looking into the BCS, however, it does not change the fact that it is taking place.

I can only see this providing a benefit to the Miami(less) Big East.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 1:02 pm 
If Congress makes the BCS include the Big East (which is probably the only way they'll keep that bid) they will more than likely have to include other comparable strong conferences. (MWC and C USA)
Take out Va Tech and Miami and you don't have a team in the Big East that has played for a NC since Pitt did in what, 80? Tony Dorsett? Isn't he a grandfather now? That's it. They'll get in under the grandfather clause.

Louisville, Cincy, and USF are dropping in C USA standings and (in football) will not, can not, and should not be expected to make up for Miami, Va Tech and BC.


Quote:
DawgNDuck, one more point on BCS and US Congress. Either of us may not agree with US Congress looking into the BCS, however, it does not change the fact that it is taking place.

I can only see this providing a benefit to the Miami(less) Big East.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 1:02 pm 
If Congress makes the BCS include the Big East (which is probably the only way they'll keep that bid) they will more than likely have to include other comparable strong conferences. (MWC and C USA)
Take out Va Tech and Miami and you don't have a team in the Big East that has played for a NC since Pitt did in what, 80? Tony Dorsett? Isn't he a grandfather now? That's it. They'll get in under the grandfather clause.

Louisville, Cincy, and USF are dropping in C USA standings and (in football) will not, can not, and should not be expected to make up for Miami, Va Tech and BC.


Quote:
DawgNDuck, one more point on BCS and US Congress. Either of us may not agree with US Congress looking into the BCS, however, it does not change the fact that it is taking place.

I can only see this providing a benefit to the Miami(less) Big East.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 1:03 pm 
If Congress makes the BCS include the Big East (which is probably the only way they'll keep that bid) they will more than likely have to include other comparable strong conferences. (MWC and C USA)
Take out Va Tech and Miami and you don't have a team in the Big East that has played for a NC since Pitt did in what, 80? Tony Dorsett? Isn't he a grandfather now? That's it. They'll get in under the grandfather clause.

Louisville, Cincy, and USF are dropping in C USA standings and (in football) will not, can not, and should not be expected to make up for Miami, Va Tech and BC.


Quote:
DawgNDuck, one more point on BCS and US Congress. Either of us may not agree with US Congress looking into the BCS, however, it does not change the fact that it is taking place.

I can only see this providing a benefit to the Miami(less) Big East.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 2:06 pm 
You don't understand...BCS has a *semblance* of inclusion that did not previously exist...this has replaced the unspoken complicity of the bowl committees...


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