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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:31 pm 
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Junior
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Location: Naperville, IL

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Any Big East or MWC consolidation for the purpose of a BCS bid is unrealistic and will not happen. Among the reasons:
1. Extremes in Geography
2. No common traditions and history
3. Both the BE and MWC have teams in which to expand; they may not be beautiful, but they are there and SIZE of conference is a factor.
4. Issues with travel for minor sports and burdens for traveling fans. There will be conference fb games generally inaccessible to the bulk of traveling fans.
5. Differences in which sports (minor/Olympic) that are sponsored.
6. BE ALREADY has BCS; they don't need MWC if they must expand to maintain it.
7. MWC has certain successful WAC and western C-USA teams to draw from if need be for size enhancement.
8. Mega conferences across massive geography have failed before.
9. Even if such happened, segments of C-USA, MAC, WAC, and SUNBELT could re-formulate and deliver a challenging case of their own. It does not terminate the fairness and access issues.
10. Such a consolidation does not deliver the attraction of inter-sectional games such as Notre Dame-USC and Penn State-Alabama (to be renewed for a few years).
11. Travel costs and lucrative TV packages to justify such a move are not assured.
12. If the BCS system is such that conferences are configuring based on an external organization focused on post-season play, and natural and regional rivalries have to be negated or compromised due to this; then, the problem fundamentally resides in the criteria associated with the BCS structure. Further, the BCS structure could change, whereby proving further a cross-country conference becomes even less feasible.
13. To do a 6-6 inter-regional model, involves removing a couple to three teams on each side. Who gets sacrificed? They may be good members of the conference complying consistently with rules.
14. Those excluded could have awesome bb teams. The divide solely on fb will have serious repercussions.

The big, successful conferences are contiguous, built on traditional and regional rivalries. OK, BC in the ACC is a bit odd--but it is Atlantic coast and the profile of the school matches. The BE made replacements with contiguous schools and replaced a Florida member. While the BE can be cited for hybrid designs and reluctance to embrace all-sports because of who were already members, they are not adventurous nor seek to further compromise their northeast foundation.


I've posted on this scenario elsewhere and I must respectfully disagree. Every scenario where the BE is limiting itself to adding "eastern" or "southeastern" schools is assuming that the conference is going to keep its BCS bid. This is a wrong and dangerous assumption for BE fans. The 5 other BCS conferences are essentially subsidizing the current BE by allowing it to keep its automatic bid; this isn't going to happen much longer.

I have much greater concern for saving the status of the true BCS football schools such as Syracuse and Pitt rather than trying to "save" the Big East conference in some bastardized form. To me, the BE has already thrown "geographic purity" out the window by inviting South Florida and Louisville. They might as well look at some more radical ideas to save their BCS status. Either way, teams like East Carolina and Southern Miss are not going to make the BE any more attractive to the TV networks that pay the bills. There is simply a lack of "eastern" teams that add any value to the BE.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:25 pm 
OK, if the BE split and expanded, it would be one to four schools.
One school would solve the issue, but that would need to be Penn State or Notre Dame. We know Penn State is solidly in the B10 and has not plans to switch. There is faint hope with Notre Dame, but they are stubbornly independent, and if they did join a conference down the road, then we know they could opt for the B10.
For the two possibility, there is Army and Navy. Though they are not winning programs with consistency, they do carry a degree of prestige and strong name recognition along with a respectable fan base. Their Patriot League bb programs are not deemed sufficiently competitive, which goes to the question of fb only associations. That type of arrangement has not been good for the BE and Army's fb only membership in CUSA was not positive. There are scheduling issues, with Air Force and so forth, and the service academies seeking to play more of the Rice and Duke types. The academies could decline a BE fb offer.
Therefore, we are looking at who are willing and have reasonable resources for BE membership. The pool is there with C-USA and MAC teams. No, they are not impressive choices, but they are choices. In any 12 team arrangement, there will be a couple of schools that will have impressive records for BCS. Hanging at eight is less probable unless one owns a Miami. Look at what happened to Louisville last week? It will be tough for them to work themselves back into the top ten.
The possibility of a 1-AA school moving up should not be ruled out. Situations and attitudes can change at UMASS or Delaware.
East Carolina is not as bad as the name suggests. They have good facilities and dedicated fans. Yes, they are on tobacco road, but the BE is not attracting NC State and UNC. ECU plays WVU, and has played Pitt and Syracuse fairly recently. Any addition the BE takes will want to have someone who can near fill the home stadium. ECU does this. Academically, they have a fine graduate program in teacher education and a medical school.
Ohio University has a great proximity and a name that offers a plus. Toledo and Miami-Ohio have put forth excellent fb teams at times. Maybe Miami is too close to Cincy.
Central Florida? Marshall? Alabama-Birmingham? Memphis? Each of these have pluses and minuses, including geography concerns.
Any arrangement to MWC schools such as UNLV, BYU, Utah, Colorado, UNM, Air Force, will all negatives too for whatever positives of BCS convenience such could provide. Some trans-association involving Army, Navy, and Air Force would not be so extreme though.
Frankly, I think ECU and Ohio University should not be outrightly dismissed as future BE possibilities.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:26 pm 
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The 5 other BCS conferences are essentially subsidizing the current BE by allowing it to keep its automatic bid; this isn't going to happen much longer.

I have much greater concern for saving the status of the true BCS football schools such as Syracuse and Pitt rather than trying to "save" the Big East conference in some bastardized form. To me, the BE has already thrown "geographic purity" out the window by inviting South Florida and Louisville. They might as well look at some more radical ideas to save their BCS status.


The BE isn't going to have the BCS much longer? Why do you say that? The BE has a chance and if they aren't close to the autobid requirements then they deservere to be kicked out.

Remember, the BCS also has the other 'criteria' that can be used to maintain the autobid. Most of the 'pundits' agreed that this was to keep the BE in the BCS mix. They are certainly the weakest but they are given a fair chance to keep it.

How is the addition of UL beyond the 'geography purity'? UL is contiguous with WVu. I agree with USF but out of the remaining schools available to be added to the BE, the ADs and Presidents thought USF has alot of upside compared to the rest of the players.

Remember, had BC stayed the BE might have not had a florida team and would have stayed in the 'NE' footpring with the 'outliers' if you call them that - of UC and UL.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:46 pm 
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No the sky is not falling.The MWC has no significant fan base in major states.Laugh as you like,the folks at Villanova are talking new press boxes,new scoreboards and more seats.(again they are already BE members something only ND has).Expansion from the MAC or the new CUSA eastern division is not on the table.Talk of Temple who cannot win a game against the losers in the MAC is also a joke.There are 3 independents left in 1A football ND,Army and Navy and their significant affilation with BE football is enough mixed the great market of the BE to hold BCS status(writing the NE market is to dumb and will not be permitted by those advertisers who support the BCS


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:11 pm 
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All-Conference
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No the sky is not falling.The MWC has no significant fan base in major states.Laugh as you like,the folks at Villanova are talking new press boxes,new scoreboards and more seats.(again they are already BE members something only ND has).Expansion from the MAC or the new CUSA eastern division is not on the table.Talk of Temple who cannot win a game against the losers in the MAC is also a joke.There are 3 independents left in 1A football ND,Army and Navy and their significant affilation with BE football is enough mixed the great market of the BE to hold BCS status(writing the NE market is to dumb and will not be permitted by those advertisers who support the BCS


TS2,

What are you talking about?

I have never dissed the NE market. Its a very prime college football market. Army and Navy are like Air Force in stature of their market. They are national niche teams. My father who didn't have an interest in sports and was in the Air Force is an example of that. Notre Dame's market is national, pure and simple, with a fairly good concentration in the Indiana, Michigan, Chicago metro area and Illinois, Ohio, and maybe some in Wisconsin, where there are numerous fans in those states that are ND. The NE markets as well. But national as well. But Army, Navy and Notre Dame have some games scheduled with the Big East. Notre Dame also has some games scheduled with the Big 10, Pac 10, sometimes ACC and occaisonally SEC, Big 12 and even MWC teams (BYU, AFA, and I think SDSU is on their schedule once). None of these three members are FB members of any sort with any conference.

The MWC predominance in the states of UT, NM, NV and share of CO is significant and notable enough along with their traditional elements of 2 national championships and 2 Heisman Trophies that if they meet the new 3 primary criteria, these traditional and market elements would be additional extra credit that would help their argument for BCS inclusion over CUSA, WAC, MAC and Sun Belt teams.

Villanova is not a likely team to move-up to 1-A.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:47 pm 
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Met,we will try again.There is a significant between Football independents ND,Army and Navy relationship with the BE and the OOC games ND has with the B10.Market places in significant states are more important to advertisers than mountain states.By the way not that that it makes any difference to our discussions,but my father served as a combat infantryman in WWII and won decorations for his valor including severe wounds in combat,as did my grandfather in WWI.My army service was certainly less dangerous and required very little valor.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:21 pm 
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Met,we will try again.There is a significant between Football independents ND,Army and Navy relationship with the BE and the OOC games ND has with the B10.


Nope, they are pretty much the same and no conference conference membership affiliation exists in football with Army, Navy, and ND with any conference anywhere.


Quote:
Market places in significant states are more important to advertisers than mountain states.


It is true that flagship universities located in big states will garner the most attention. That is why the Big 10, located in the populated midwest has the best TV contract. SEC, with some populated states have great TV contracts too. The other BCS leagues do as well.

But among the other conferences, the MWC has the best out-front, and least competition within their footprints. This is an added bonus. That and those states are growing. Florida's college football market wasn't much 35 years ago. Now it is primetime for the 3 teams of UF, FSU and Miami which all came into their own since then. The out-front situation in UT, NM, NV, and 45% share of Colorado is significant enough to give it a look of the market size of the old Big 8 or the SWC. It is a potential extra credit when this conference is considered and evaluated for BCS conference autobid status.


Quote:
By the way not that that it makes any difference to our discussions,but my father served as a combat infantryman in WWII and won decorations for his valor including severe wounds in combat,as did my grandfather in WWI.My army service was certainly less dangerous and required very little valor.


Congratulations for your service to our country. Thank you to you and your father for serving our country. I mean that sincerely.


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