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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:38 am 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
With only a few weeks ahead, the first season of the MWC will have division play (along with its first CCG) will start. But looks very awkward to see a conference with 11 full members (one additional football-only member in Hawaii, who should had join as a full member in the MW in my opinion). I believe that the MW should have time in the future to find a suitable non-football member for all sports. Sadly, neither Idaho nor New Mexico State are "qualified" under the MWC staff's minds.


The WAC schools who eventually became the original members of the MWC wanted nothing to do with a lot of the schools who eventually became the new WAC and western edge of CUSA. I've never been convinced of any stories about BYU and Boise willingly going anywhere together...quite frankly, I think BYU left the MWC because of Boise and the inevitable "re-"absorption of schools they were done with.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:43 am 
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The Bishin Cutter wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
With only a few weeks ahead, the first season of the MWC will have division play (along with its first CCG) will start. But looks very awkward to see a conference with 11 full members (one additional football-only member in Hawaii, who should had join as a full member in the MW in my opinion). I believe that the MW should have time in the future to find a suitable non-football member for all sports. Sadly, neither Idaho nor New Mexico State are "qualified" under the MWC staff's minds.


The WAC schools who eventually became the original members of the MWC wanted nothing to do with a lot of the schools who eventually became the new WAC and western edge of CUSA. I've never been convinced of any stories about BYU and Boise willingly going anywhere together...quite frankly, I think BYU left the MWC because of Boise and the inevitable "re-"absorption of schools they were done with.


No wonder it eventually led to the death of the WAC (in football) because of that. But of those former WAC schools that became the charter members of the MW, how come UNLV was part of the list? UNLV joined with San Jose State, Tulsa, Rice, SMU and TCU 3 seasons before the MW was formed. Hawaii or UTEP or Fresno State should had become the spot instead of UNLV, which the Rebels were recently a newcomer.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:46 pm 
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The logical all sports member for the Mountain West is University of Denver. They don't play football, but are strong in all of the Olympic sports. Denver has been the strongest DI school without football for 5 of the past 6 years. Their basketball is getting stronger yearly and probably would be in the middle of the MWC right now. They have won 22 Mens BB games for the past 2 years and should do as well this year.

They have long time rivalries with Air Force, CSU, Wyoming and Utah State. They won the WAC in their only season their and made it to the second round of the NIT, where they almost upset Maryland. If the MWC doesn't take another football school, Denver would be perfect on al fronts. Strong athletic budget, new arena seating 7,200 for basketball and right in the middle of the conference. What Denver needs to do is keeping winning in Men's BB and maybe the MWC will wakeup and take the premier academic school in the region.

If the MWC wants a non-fB school, they need not look farther than Denver and then it would be 12 for everything.

Go Pioneers


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:37 am 
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AtlPioneer wrote:
The logical all sports member for the Mountain West is University of Denver. They don't play football, but are strong in all of the Olympic sports. Denver has been the strongest DI school without football for 5 of the past 6 years. Their basketball is getting stronger yearly and probably would be in the middle of the MWC right now. They have won 22 Mens BB games for the past 2 years and should do as well this year.

They have long time rivalries with Air Force, CSU, Wyoming and Utah State. They won the WAC in their only season their and made it to the second round of the NIT, where they almost upset Maryland. If the MWC doesn't take another football school, Denver would be perfect on al fronts. Strong athletic budget, new arena seating 7,200 for basketball and right in the middle of the conference. What Denver needs to do is keeping winning in Men's BB and maybe the MWC will wakeup and take the premier academic school in the region.

If the MWC wants a non-fB school, they need not look farther than Denver and then it would be 12 for everything.

Go Pioneers


I believe you're right. I think that Denver should be a great candidate to join the MWC for non-football schools, especially for division play within basketball. Hope the MWC should check out the school in the future. But let's see how Denver would do in the Midwest-based almost-endangered Summit League this season.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:42 pm 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
No wonder it eventually led to the death of the WAC (in football) because of that. But of those former WAC schools that became the charter members of the MW, how come UNLV was part of the list? UNLV joined with San Jose State, Tulsa, Rice, SMU and TCU 3 seasons before the MW was formed. Hawaii or UTEP or Fresno State should had become the spot instead of UNLV, which the Rebels were recently a newcomer.


If UNLV didn't play top-tier basketball, I don't know who would have gotten the nod to join the conference back then. It certainly wasn't for football that the Mountain West asked them to hop on board. UNLV could very well be the worst Division 1A football program ever. Then and now.

MWC claimed travel and academic profile as a reason to break away, although when you turn away from Rice, SMU, and Tulsa for UNLV when you have Utah, BYU, AFA, and then TCU, I'm not quite sure how that's spun.

Agreed about Denver, AtlPioneer, but I think they are aiming for something more their "type" (WCC). If ice hockey was the only thing they were doing at the D1 level, they'd be the JHU equivalent in the Big Ten's scheming. Who knows...


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:45 pm 
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Hockey and Skiing are just two of Denver's strong sports. Here is a quick summary of why the MWC should stop looking and invite Denver. Yes, I have heard that Denver wants the WCC, but it is the MWC bb games that sellout the arena,not the Gonzaga's and St. Marys'.
Hockey - one of the top programs in all of college hockey multiple National Championship
Skiing - one of the top programs in all of college skiing
Men's BB 22 wins for the past 2 seasons. Won the Sun Belt and WAC regular seasons and last year made it to the 2nd round of the NIT.
Woman's BB respectable middle of the pack program with a new coach
Gymnastics- Top 20 NCAA team almost every year
Men's Lacrosse Top 10 Team- made it to NCAA Quarter and Semi Finals. In Big East for Men's Lacrosse
Women's Lacrosse - Top 25 Team
Men's Soccer - strong program that was a rival of Air Force, New Mexico, UNLV in the Mountain Pacific
Women's Soccer- Top 25 NCAA team regularly
Golf - Regular NCAA team in Men's and Women's
Tennis - Strong Program that is usually a Top 50 in both Men's and Women
Swimming - One of the top mid major programs in the country for both men and women
Volleyball - middle of the road program

Take all of this and add in that Denver has won the Directors Cup for non-football DI school 5 out of the past 6 years and couple it with Denver being the highest rated University in the Rocky Mountain region, It makes sense for the MWC to take Denver if Hawaii stays a FB only member. The budgets, facilities and programs are already on a par with the MWC. I personally would rather see us in the MWC than the WCC for maybe someday the administration will wake up to the fact that we could compete at the MWC level if they added FB. That's my dream and who know.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:07 pm 
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The old WAC expansion from 10 to 16 has also baffled me. More baffling was that 7 of the 10 schools that voted that new block in turned around and left. I wonder how much of it had to do with loss of old rivalries and how much of it was really about the old guard not being satisfied with the television revenues generated by America's first super-conference.

In retrospect, I think the WAC would have been better off had Tulsa and the SWC refugees partnered with C-USA like Houston did. Tulsa, TCU, SMU, and Rice all ended up with C-USA at some point anyway. Those 4 along with Houston, Tulane, Memphis, Louisville, Cincinnati, Southern Miss, UAB, USF, UCF, and ECU would have made a pretty good conference.

If the WAC had just added UNLV and San Jose St from the Big West in 1996 they would have had 12 teams and divisional play would have worked out nice--the Utah schools would have to be in separate divisions with a protected crossover but that's not too horrible. To remedy that a few years down the road they could have added Nevada and Boise St and gone to 14 members when those schools were ready. Utah and BYU leaving in 2010 would have opened up spots for Utah St and New Mexico St.

As for the MWC adding a non-football school to off set Hawaii, I think there is a program out there that would be more desirable than Denver--that school would be Gonzaga. They have better basketball than Denver and if they could be pried away from the WCC that would make the WCC a less desirable home for BYU which might make them reconsider coming back to the MWC especially if they can take of the financial policies created by the MWC to placate Boise St.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:18 am 
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If the MWC plans to have Gonzaga, then which team would the WCC replace then?

AtlPioneer wrote:
It makes sense for the MWC to take Denver if Hawaii stays a FB only member. The budgets, facilities and programs are already on a par with the MWC. I personally would rather see us in the MWC than the WCC for maybe someday the administration will wake up to the fact that we could compete at the MWC level if they added FB. That's my dream and who know.


@AtlPioneer: If Denver would plan to add football, which facility would the Pioneers use? Like the Mile High Stadium the Broncos play?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:15 am 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
If the MWC plans to have Gonzaga, then which team would the WCC replace then?


Seattle or Denver.

However, at some point, that cluster in the MWC and Montana are going to cross paths...


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:21 am 
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The Bishin Cutter wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
If the MWC plans to have Gonzaga, then which team would the WCC replace then?


Seattle or Denver.

However, at some point, that cluster in the MWC and Montana are going to cross paths...


Maybe the WCC should add both Seattle and Denver together. And if the MWC plan to expand through the state of Montana, that means Montana and Montana State should be the candidates; but both of them must upgrade their facilities to at least 30k to 40k in capacity to become full FBS members and within the MW.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:36 am 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
The Bishin Cutter wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
If the MWC plans to have Gonzaga, then which team would the WCC replace then?


Seattle or Denver.

However, at some point, that cluster in the MWC and Montana are going to cross paths...


Maybe the WCC should add both Seattle and Denver together. And if the MWC plan to expand through the state of Montana, that means Montana and Montana State should be the candidates; but both of them must upgrade their facilities to at least 30k to 40k in capacity to become full FBS members and within the MW.


Montana's got that in check; stadium's expandable to 30K without demo. It's State who would need to do some serious work, who just completed a round of renovations to 20K. Looking at Bobcat Stadium, something's going to have to come down before they can get to 30K+ at that place.

I have to wonder if NDSU might be aiming for FBS. They would have been a natural for the WAC when they still sponsored football...now, it's kind of a push for MAC or MWC. If the Fargodome expansion is green-light'ed, I expect they're pushing for the football upgrade.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:44 am 
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The Bishin Cutter wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
The Bishin Cutter wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
If the MWC plans to have Gonzaga, then which team would the WCC replace then?


Seattle or Denver.

However, at some point, that cluster in the MWC and Montana are going to cross paths...


Maybe the WCC should add both Seattle and Denver together. And if the MWC plan to expand through the state of Montana, that means Montana and Montana State should be the candidates; but both of them must upgrade their facilities to at least 30k to 40k in capacity to become full FBS members and within the MW.


Montana's got that in check; stadium's expandable to 30K without demo. It's State who would need to do some serious work, who just completed a round of renovations to 20K. Looking at Bobcat Stadium, something's going to have to come down before they can get to 30K+ at that place.

I have to wonder if NDSU might be aiming for FBS. They would have been a natural for the WAC when they still sponsored football...now, it's kind of a push for MAC or MWC. If the Fargodome expansion is green-light'ed, I expect they're pushing for the football upgrade.


At least the U. of Montana is a strong candidate for now. And if North Dakota State plans to be an FBS member, then it should be for the WAC, along with the other Dakota schools, and a re-instated UN-Omaha on that sport with needs of facility upgrades themselves. However, if NDSU does plan it to be another affiliate member for the MW, then the MW must need another non-football member within the Western U.S. I missed when the WAC had some South Central/Lower Midwest teams to represent the conference. But that's history, the MW has become the WAC's successor since 1999. It was slowly, but surely.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:37 am 
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Quick replies:

MWC is fine at 11/12 but the theory about looking at Gonzaga was more than just a rumor per CBS Sports over a year ago.

The end game would be to get BYU back as a full member by taking the only other gem in the WCC plus the Pacific Northwest doesn't have much representation in the MWC.

WCC won't take Seattle unless Gonzaga leaves or they get raided for multiple programs which looks unlikely. Denver would be next in line but they'd be on an island without BYU.

If I was the MWC I'd seriously consider adding Gonzaga AND St Mary's then offering Hawaii full membership for 14 then approaching BYU for 15 with an option for Montana (alone, sorry Mont St) or UTEP as 16. W/ BYU, Zags and StMarys the MWC would be a better bball conference than the PAC12 by far, and would be great for them when they renegotiate their TV deal.

Montana could be the next Boise but what are those odds? By adding them you're adding a new state, but a new state with half the population of Idaho. If they added Montana and Mont St their market penetration (500K each) in Montana would be for less people than WYO (600K). I just don't see it happening, UTEP is much safer.

I like Denver BUT the MWC already has control of Colorado with 2 schools plus WYO right on the border and Denver doesn't feel right in the MWC to me, the WCC should be their goal.

Also, as AtlPioneer points out, Denver already has plently of Men's sports w/o football including Hockey, Skiing, Soccer, and LAX (now as a BE affiliate). Since there is no Women's Hockey, Denver has Volleyball and Gymnastics to offset Men's Hockey so their almost no way do they have the ability to add Men's football with Title IX as it is, without sacrificing some of these successful sports which makes them unique.

They'd have to add Women's Hockey, Women's Field Hockey, and Women's Softball to even get close to the scholarships required for FCS and would still need another to go FBS.

If Denver wants to add some sports and make themselves more atractive for the WCC they should look at Track&Field/CC and baseball/softball.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:01 pm 
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The problem with non-FB members is that once they are invited, you typically can't get rid of them or force them to add football (unless something is written into the contract when they join).

Denver has made it pretty clear that they don't have the financial wherewithal to add FB in the foreseeable future, and don't really even want to entertain discussions about that.

So the MWC has solidified their position as the No. 2 conference in the Mountain / West time zones, and the only really attractive programs remaining in that region are BYU,
maybe UTEP, and then someday the Montana schools when they are ready to upgrade (which could coincide with the PAC expanding by grabbing some MWC teams in the future).

Assuming there may be a bit more realignment (let's say if and when FBS (or just the Power 5 conferences)
carves out a new NCAA Division and maybe consolidate to 4 18-team conferences or something like that),
that may be when a confernece like the MWC, AAC look toward their "ultimate alignment".
At such a time, BYU wrangle a spot with the big boys, or have to bite the bullet and re-join the MWC.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:33 pm 
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Here's the simple actual options in order. BYU & UTEP, no one, Hawaii as a full member, UTEP & UTSA, UTEP & UNT.

Montana would need to go fb only in the SBC 1st and be good before they get on that list at the ass end.

If they ever changed their mind to get a school for all sports but fb it would be BYU, which is what BYU wanted.

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