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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:50 pm 
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Last year Terry Hooland tried his best to get ECU into the BE even for football ans turned down before he got to first base.Next thing you know ND announces 3 games per year in bE football.Look at Villanova to upgrade and bring in the Philly market long before any MAC or CUSA is even offered football only.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:54 pm 
If they wanted Philly market, they once had Temple. Actually, the successful college team in Philadelphia is neither Temple or lowly Villanova, but rather Penn of the Ivy League.

A conference lusting after Notre Dame for fb which will never come true, and the BE is stooping to hopes of Villanova and Georgetown offering up something, validates the arguement the BE does not belong in the BCS. Unfounded rumors of this nature do not help the BE cause.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:06 am 
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Lash, you may be right about ND not joining the Big 10 in your lifetime, but I doubt it. It is the only logical path, the only place where ND can make significantly more $$$$. Playing the poorly supported Pitt (thank God it's no longer "Pittsburgh") and Rutgers is no answer for the Irish. D&C and SportsKC are on the right track.

Contrary to your beliefs, I do not want to see the BE fail. As far as I'm concerned, the more strong conferences the better, but who is available to strengthen the BE now? ECU, Memphis, Villanova, Delaware, UMass? Don't think so.


Last edited by westwolf on Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:04 am 
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BE football in the future: ND 4 games for one half BE schedule and Villanova the other half for 4 games.Both Villanova and ND will play both Army and Navy that will be the grouping.ND will play Rutgers and Army alternate years in the Meadowlands and play Villanova and Navy at the Lincoln in alternate years.More big pay days for ND.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:58 pm 
Wow! Sounds like the BE and Notre Dame are downgrading to 1-AA! Can't wait to see the press releases on this.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 1:11 pm 
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Quote:
BE football in the future: ND 4 games for one half BE schedule and Villanova the other half for 4 games.Both Villanova and ND will play both Army and Navy that will be the grouping.ND will play Rutgers and Army alternate years in the Meadowlands and play Villanova and Navy at the Lincoln in alternate years.More big pay days for ND.


So ND will get West Virginia, Syracuse, Rutgers, and Pitt. While Nova will play Louisville, USF, Cincinnati, and UConn. Thats a real good setup. ::) There will be some complaining in the BE if this goes down. ND will go to the B10 in the next 10 years.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:59 pm 
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Partial schedules would be folly and make the BE look like a softball league.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:57 am 
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There is no mistake in keeping ND.It helps with money,bowls and ratings.Adding Villanova would also be a great move.No need for MAC or southern CUSA schools.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:54 pm 

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Partial schedules would be folly and make the BE look like a softball league.


Agree. Every team that plays has a partial schedule in that all fb schools are going to play 3 to 4 out-of-conference games. In the case of independents, certainly a particular conference or two is going to have multiple teams on their schedule. Look at who 1-A independents had scheduled for 2005 alone:

Temple (pst BE\prior to MAC move announcement)
5 ACC
3 MAC
1 P10
1 SB
1 Indep.

Navy
3 Indep.
2 C-USA
2 ACC
1 MAC
1 MWC
1 P10
1 BE

Army
2 MAC
2 B12
2 MWC
1 ACC
1 BE
1 SB
1 Indep.
1 A10 (1AA)

Notre Dame
3 B10
3 P10
2 BE
1 MWC
1 SEC
1 Indep.

It appears three opponents from a particular conference is about the maximum an independent would play in a season. If four happened it would not be shocking. In the case of Temple, the ACC anomaly was a one shot situation, and was a potential ACC stop-gap measure.

If you look at the schools an independent schedules, it is motivated by characteristics of the indiviual school, of which the conference each belongs too is a factor in the characteristic. An independent is not going to a Conferences headquarters and say "sign us up with two or three of your members, it does not matter who".

Notre Dame playing Pittsburgh (which they regularly do and was before the BE became an idea) and Syracuse appear obvious and fit Notre Dame's traditional choices of opponents. If West Virginia (happened before) or Rutgers are scheduled by ND, that would not be shocking. ND's first entanglement with WV showed in a post regular season championship game.

If Notre Dame scheduled USF, Cincy, and/or L'ville, then eyebrows would be raised. Conferences cutting deals with each other or wheel and deal over bowls is nothing new. The bottom line, one is not a conference member in fb (or other sports) until the PAPERS HAVE BEEN SIGNED AND SLATE OF EIGHT CONFERENCE OPPONENTS HAVE BEEN SCHEDULED.

Agree Sportskc. Notre Dame's history playing B10 teams reaches beyond Purdue, Michigan, and MSU. Penn State, Northwestern, and Ohio State, among a couple other B10 teams, have played ND in recent decades. Many would like to work out games, but with the slates limited to 11 or 12 opponents, of which 8 or so are predetermined by conference play, there is little flexibility. The pressure to play other in-state and a MAC opponent or two are also there, plus intersectional contests and give-me prep-type games.

Navy may be even more rigid than Notre Dame. They have cultivated their nation-wide slate and established much of their regulars. Notre Dame, Army, and Air Force are obvious regulars for Navy, but they also want to maintain competitiveness with games against teams such as Rice, Tulane, and Duke (short name known privates sort of). Army will be soldifying its own pattern having exited C-USA.

When Notre Dame addressed conference membership in football at the end of the 90s', it was a BIG10 offer they formally declined. When the ACC expansion neared conclusion, it was the ACC and Big 10 they flirted with in a detached, speculative way.

Even BE Commisioner MT was adament that Notre Dame is staying fb independent. How many years will it be before Notre Dame finally commits to a conference for fb is unknown. Much depends on their on-field success and what will be available later.

The Notre Dame faculty and perhaps, as previously reported, parts of their administration and board favor the B10. One thing for sure, we are not hearing forces from Notre Dame exclaiming "LET'S JOIN THE BE IN FB"! Rather, it is certain BE fans that are hoping for the enhanced bonding.

Notre Dame fans and alumni, at some point, could face reality and swallow the idea of B10 membership. To say the same for BE, from the Notre Dame angle, not the BE angle, is not happening. Maybe---if L'ville, Pitt, and Syracuse---won at least ten of the next fifteen national championships. But then again, if that happened, someone else may be vying for that #12 B10 spot.





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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:21 pm 
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I do not understand why the issues of a Big East split and/or football expansion are so tied into whether Notre Dame plays three football games per year against Big East teams.

We know that the three games are coming. That apparently is fact. That still does not make ND a BE conference football competitor, nor is Villanova IF they do play four annually.

If Villanova does make the move to 1-A then I would assume it would be to play as a BE Conference member. That would bring the league to nine and even out the scheduling.

IF a split does occur, ND is not going to stop the new all-sports conference from expanding IF they so desire.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:57 am 
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ND has big time weight in football.They get their own BCS package.They have their own tv package.They are unlike anyone else in 1A football.ND is full time in the BE for all other sports than football.This is clearly different than any b10 relationship.Also being part of the BE bowl package is clearly differentthan any relationship with the b10.The BE football schools are going no place without ND.In 2003 they had a choice and they stayed with ND.The BE always allowed special deals(ie Miami baseball was always independent)


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:01 am 

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The BE football schools are going no place without ND.


This was not the case with Miami, VPI, and BC; and certainly Syracuse was willing to leave.
By accepting your thesis as correct, TS2, then it confirms the BE football are holding themselves in limbo, hoping upon a Notre Dame. Thus, would one assume the ACC had extracted from this conference the non-dependent, self-assured schools? It is a challenge to visualize savvy schools such as West Virgina and Louisville locking themselves into such a tangential situation whereby they have accumulated their merit exclusive of any Notre Dame coattails.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:19 pm 
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Westwolf, thanks for the response. I do not like how college sports are managed today especially football. The fact that ACC expansion taking three Big East schools could kill the conference or reduce a conference to non BCS status is totally unaccepable to me. The BCS simply must go. With this statement it does not matter how strong the future Big East as long as the fans continue to support the teams and there is no reason to see a downward trend in fan support. In fact Louisville and Cincinnatti are having better than previous years on season tickets. By the way, agreed on Pitt and not Pittsburgh.

DogsNCo@ks, it just seems like destiny for the 16 member Big East basketball to spin off in a few years. There are too many strong basketball schools to be left out of the 12 team tournament in NY. I think this alone will cause a split and not a need for Notre Dame football or other football members for expansion. I am back on a 12 team conference that would allow for 6 teams to remain in the north division. This will be the closest the east will ever come to the proposal by JoePA at Penn State to create an eastern all sports conference. If you take Pitt, Syracuse, WVU, Rutgers, UConn, and Villanova if upgraded to 1a, this would allow an eastern type division for a BCS play in game. The basketball rivals would be fantastic and generate local interest. If Villanova does not upgrade then move Cincinnatti to the North division. Any of these schools would come from a state that is partial or full above the Mason Dixion line.
Mason Division is listed above. The Dixon divison would be Louisville, Cincinnatti, Memphis, UAB, South Florida and one of the following (East Carolina, Southern Miss, or Marshall).

Unlike the new ACC, this 12 team conference would actually geographically be connected with each state that contained a member school. And member schools in each division would have a history and be connected by location.

Anyway we will have to wait and see how this 16 team basketball thing plays out before the football schools will look for an alternate. If so, my 12 team proposal above would be the preferred direction for expansion.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:22 pm 
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Eleven or twelve it maybe.But likely those who will be leaving will be schools like Seton Hall,Providence,Marquette,DePaul,St Johns and merging with the likes of Xavier and Dayton.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:07 pm 
Could be, TS2, would such take an amicable split? The BE bb schools you noted do profile better, together, than what currently appears in the group of 16. If the fb schools do want to expand with all-sports participants, and they want to add schools not currently affiliated with the BE, then I don't see how the current full group will hold together.

Lash, I concur with your theme as a general possibility. Not sure here, if Mason-Dixon designation will be accepted as being politically correct. While some of the schools you mentioned will be in play, it takes on an even greater C-USA characterization. That is not all bad considering they do have some quality schools and the options are very narrow since all highly prominent schools east of the Mississippi, with the exception of Notre Dame, are already in a BCS conference. With schools such as Memphis or Southern Miss or UAB, that is getting into a geographic stretch, even if there are two divisions. On the other hand, C-USA stretches from Greenville, NC and Orlando all the way to El Paso. Their two divisions though, have a southern commonality. If the BE did split, and it goes deeper "southeastern" or "south central", then C-USA would pick up possibly more "southwestern" types i. e. LA Tech, North Texas, possibly Arkansas State. If such happened, C-USA could evolve into a thorough revision of what once was the Old Southwest. Interesting!


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