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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:51 pm 
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Where are UCOnn,Cinn,UCF and USF going?
Another new league without a tv contract?
The B12 wants to be at 10

Growing the AAC seems an easier way.
Getting a better tv contract seems possible.

Will Army join Navy as football only members of the AAC?
Will MAC members such as Buffalo or Norther Illinois join the AAC as all sports members?


Could BYU rejoin the MWC for football only?
Possible if they find it hard to get


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:29 pm 
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ctx48c wrote:
Where are UCOnn,Cinn,UCF and USF going?
Another new league without a tv contract?
The B12 wants to be at 10

Growing the AAC seems an easier way.
Getting a better tv contract seems possible.

Will Army join Navy as football only members of the AAC?
Will MAC members such as Buffalo or Norther Illinois join the AAC as all sports members?


Could BYU rejoin the MWC for football only?
Possible if they find it hard to get

2 of the AAC schools I'm sure will hope for the day when the B12 goes to 12 again. UConn hopes ACC goes to 16. Growing the AAC is easier but it still wouldn't make UConn, Cincy, UCF, USF happy like the B12 or ACC would.

AAC needs to come to grips w/ the fact they are w/ the cast offs now and the ACC/B1G/B12 own all those markets.

I'm sure Buffalo and NIU would but they don't add enough to grow the pie.

BYU would rather have its other sports in the MWC than fb. They already asked for that deal. BYU wants the B12

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:46 am 
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Texas and Oklahoma do not want more than 10 members in the B12.
The ACC made a special deal for ND,they do not want UCONN.
Thus the illusion of Cinn,Conn abd UCF and USF going to the P5 is not likely to happen.Also the PAC 12 is holding at 12 members.Sure the B10 would like more members but they are from the ACC,but thats an unlikely happening.

Also BYU is having a hard time getting takers for its 2016 football schedule.
thus they may need to come back to the MWC.

Who are the adds for the AAC that would help football ?Army.
Then if Army joins another school would be needed to even the football conference membership.
After that there are MAC schools or CUSA schools.
Also A10 schools with good bb programs that would be other sports components for Army and Navy.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:48 am 
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The Bishin Cutter wrote:
sec03 wrote:
If PART of the MWC combined with PART of the AAC, and Army with Navy got included in a new conference, then a very slight 'MAYBE' a new order (conference) could be established. But such would take major cooperation and determination, including overcoming resistance from those "left-out" and the resisting for those sought to be included, but have individual agendas.


Networks and bowls with suitcases of cash. That's what it will take. And the bowls shouldn't be discounted, because the new playoff structure makes all but three games completely irrelevant. The minor bowls are going to be clawing for content and, as BYU and Navy have, some of these games want specific programs if it comes down to it. And those programs aren't sharing...unless there's reason for them to.

I don't think there's much programs left behind can do. I mean, you can win and schedule up, which used to be the way one could prove themselves, and it's still meaningless now. Get on the wrong side of a program or two, and you're wandering aimlessly in the desert.

Quinn wrote:
Why would Air Force downgrade to the AAC from the MWC. I mean, in the past that word "downgrade" might have been debatable as the Big East had a BCS bid. But now? Is Petersen leaving Boise St. really that much of an issue...to think that Air Force would be better in an east coast/southern conference that is losing Louisville and Rutgers to other conferences and replacing them with the likes of Tulane??


I don't think it was debatable when AQ was on the table, but now, yeah, it's a downgrade. It doesn't help when UConn and Cincy are trying to leave and aren't really refuting any of it. I have a feeling if someone big does leave, the TV contract is altered, and Navy is as good as gone (like an auto-eject clause similar to what Notre Dame had in the Big East).

It's weird, though, because I think the AAC has the better, bigger athletic programs, but collectively, its value is pretty much just a couple of schools. Lose them, and it's over. In the Mountain West, the programs are smaller, and it would still survive were a few of them to leave. Heck, it could lose a school or two, and I bet it could be picky about replacements (and it might even get those quirky Cougs from Provo back in).




It's important to note that Air Force DID have conversations with the Big 12 about joining. Ultimately, it was Air Force that went public and said they were not interested in joining as they felt they wouldn't be able to compete.

http://espn.go.com/blog/big12/post/_/id ... -air-force" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quote:
"We were approached by the Big 12, and I told them we're not a good fit for that conference. In the Big 12, geography makes sense, the economics make sense, but recruiting makes no sense for us. I can't recruit against Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State," [Air Force athletic director Hans] Mueh said.

"That's why I turned down the Big 12. I can't do that to my kids, because they'll get beat up. I'd love the extra $12 million or whatever it would be per year from the TV money. And I know how I'd spend the money. I'd build a new soccer stadium, and I'd build a new baseball facility, all in one year. But I can't do that."




It's not all about money for Air Force like it is for many other schools...reputation means something and having to play in a conference on the other side of the country is not going to make things easier when the conference (AAC) is an inferior product at this point to their current conference (MWC) which also resides in their backyard. There isn't going to be the money in the AAC, there isn't going to be the auto bid. There will be a ton more travel, a need to find a home for their non-football programs which would likely be stuck asking to join a Christian-based WCC. To be blunt, there is no benefit to Air Force in the AAC over the MWC, only problems. At this point, suggesting they make that move would be akin to thinking Tulane should put their basketball in the Southland and football in the Mountain West.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:35 am 
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Quinn wrote:
The Bishin Cutter wrote:
sec03 wrote:
If PART of the MWC combined with PART of the AAC, and Army with Navy got included in a new conference, then a very slight 'MAYBE' a new order (conference) could be established. But such would take major cooperation and determination, including overcoming resistance from those "left-out" and the resisting for those sought to be included, but have individual agendas.


Networks and bowls with suitcases of cash. That's what it will take. And the bowls shouldn't be discounted, because the new playoff structure makes all but three games completely irrelevant. The minor bowls are going to be clawing for content and, as BYU and Navy have, some of these games want specific programs if it comes down to it. And those programs aren't sharing...unless there's reason for them to.

I don't think there's much programs left behind can do. I mean, you can win and schedule up, which used to be the way one could prove themselves, and it's still meaningless now. Get on the wrong side of a program or two, and you're wandering aimlessly in the desert.

Quinn wrote:
Why would Air Force downgrade to the AAC from the MWC. I mean, in the past that word "downgrade" might have been debatable as the Big East had a BCS bid. But now? Is Petersen leaving Boise St. really that much of an issue...to think that Air Force would be better in an east coast/southern conference that is losing Louisville and Rutgers to other conferences and replacing them with the likes of Tulane??


I don't think it was debatable when AQ was on the table, but now, yeah, it's a downgrade. It doesn't help when UConn and Cincy are trying to leave and aren't really refuting any of it. I have a feeling if someone big does leave, the TV contract is altered, and Navy is as good as gone (like an auto-eject clause similar to what Notre Dame had in the Big East).

It's weird, though, because I think the AAC has the better, bigger athletic programs, but collectively, its value is pretty much just a couple of schools. Lose them, and it's over. In the Mountain West, the programs are smaller, and it would still survive were a few of them to leave. Heck, it could lose a school or two, and I bet it could be picky about replacements (and it might even get those quirky Cougs from Provo back in).




It's important to note that Air Force DID have conversations with the Big 12 about joining. Ultimately, it was Air Force that went public and said they were not interested in joining as they felt they wouldn't be able to compete.

http://espn.go.com/blog/big12/post/_/id ... -air-force" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quote:
"We were approached by the Big 12, and I told them we're not a good fit for that conference. In the Big 12, geography makes sense, the economics make sense, but recruiting makes no sense for us. I can't recruit against Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State," [Air Force athletic director Hans] Mueh said.

"That's why I turned down the Big 12. I can't do that to my kids, because they'll get beat up. I'd love the extra $12 million or whatever it would be per year from the TV money. And I know how I'd spend the money. I'd build a new soccer stadium, and I'd build a new baseball facility, all in one year. But I can't do that."




It's not all about money for Air Force like it is for many other schools...reputation means something and having to play in a conference on the other side of the country is not going to make things easier when the conference (AAC) is an inferior product at this point to their current conference (MWC) which also resides in their backyard. There isn't going to be the money in the AAC, there isn't going to be the auto bid. There will be a ton more travel, a need to find a home for their non-football programs which would likely be stuck asking to join a Christian-based WCC. To be blunt, there is no benefit to Air Force in the AAC over the MWC, only problems. At this point, suggesting they make that move would be akin to thinking Tulane should put their basketball in the Southland and football in the Mountain West.


I don't disagree. I've been preaching the AAC doomsday stuff for a bit, what with schools with big athletics budgets getting slashed and travel concerns, as well as general unhappiness with media deals, bowl affiliations, and the possible still-present political issues...UConn and Cincy clearly do not fit, and they make this conference EVERYTHING that it is financially. They don't want to be there, and so it only adds to the perception of its instability.

But, I do think there's a puncher's chance it survives, and may even survive with most/all of its current programs until the next decade. Is it enough to have a shot with AFA? Personally? Not a chance. That doesn't mean they won't take conversations, though. And, it sounds like the AAC wants to continue that with the other two SAs. I don't know what the AAC has to offer AFA...but the AAC seems to think they're in the right arena, so I honestly don't know.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:07 pm 
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Obviously, the AAC and the MWC are not going to get TV and bowl agreements anywhere near the level of the power 5 conferences. It may be wise for the MWC and the AAC to engage in some scheduling agreements. Didn't the MWC and CUSA explore some combo deal awhile back (3 or so years ago) but never developed due to realignment/expansion activities happening then?

If Army became part of the AAC along with Navy, the ongoing scheduling with the AFA could be incorporated into a MWC-AAC 'PAC'. Others would do cross-games as well. It may help some financially, and strategically, for the TV sponsor to present some more interesting inter-conference games; and could captivate some enhanced bowl interest.

Coop agreements such as the PAC12-B1G attempt and the exploration of such between the ACC and the SEC, may be a good way to resolve some OOC scheduling issues, protect certain rivalries, provide a few more intriguing games, and offer enhanced, though limited, certain market penetration when expansion itself is not desired or available.

The problem, though, with these 'coop agreement' efforts is that certain schools within a given conference shall resist, putting their self-interests first, or do not see it benefiting themselves as much as certain other conference members.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:26 pm 
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I'd have to rank the AAC and MWC as approximately even.

Those 2 are the top conferences ust beneath the Power 5 (one in the eastern / central time zones, the other in Mountain / pacific / Hawaiian time zones).
In a given year, one may be a bit stronger in this or that sport, but they are fairly equivalent.

As pertains to Air Force, I don't think they were strongly inclined to change conferences, but with everything in flux back in 2012,
they were fielding phone calls to keep their options open.

As a service academy, I get the strong vibe that they ARE actually concenrned with the well-being of their student athletes.
Travel IS a real concern.
And they realize they are not in position to compete on the recruting trail wiht the Power 5 schools, because their students are bound to a military commitment.

Where at one time the BE -> AAC was a big deal (due to their auto-bid, and a lucrative TV contract that they passed up on), the AAC schools and the MWC schools
will not be knocking down the kind of TV revenue the Power 5 schools get ($20 million each). AAC and MWC will be lucky to pull down $2 million each.
Now that that reality has set in, the school's travel budget is a real concern,
and Air Force would seem to have no desire to send their sports teams to the east coast on a regualr basis.
I think they are truly happy in the MWC, which fits the bill in terms of competitiveness and geography.

If the Air Force Academy were located on the east coast instead of Colorado Springs, then yeah, they'd likely look to be in the same athletic conference as Army and Navy.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:01 pm 
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I just don't see Air Force as a viable football-only member of the American. There was a brief window when it looked viable--back when the league was still the Big East and they had sold Boise St and tag-along San Diego St on the idea of a nation-wide, "best of the rest" football league. What the Big East needed to make that plan work were commitments from BYU and Air Force. To do this however AFA, Boise St, San Diego St and BYU all needed "conferences of convenience" for their other sports--Boise found the WAC (and later the Big West), San Diego St had the Big West, BYU was already snug in the WCC, but the AFA didn't have a suitable home. The WCC might have been suitable; so could the Summit. Ultimately BYU never committed to the vision and without BYU and without an autobid remaining in the MWC was the much safer route.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:04 pm 
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tute79 wrote:
As pertains to Air Force, I don't think they were strongly inclined to change conferences, but with everything in flux back in 2012,
they were fielding phone calls to keep their options open.


Yeah, with SDSU and Boise as some sort of "leverage" to better persuade AFA and BYU into joining, as well as whatever remnants of AQ were up for grabs. If the AAC could have gotten all three SAs under its roof, I guess the theory was AFA would still get western games in the AAC and have room to schedule some of its traditional rivals (CSU, Wyo, etc.) in the non-conference.

Still, that's a ridiculous footprint.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:05 pm 
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sec03 wrote:
Obviously, the AAC and the MWC are not going to get TV and bowl agreements anywhere near the level of the power 5 conferences. It may be wise for the MWC and the AAC to engage in some scheduling agreements. Didn't the MWC and CUSA explore some combo deal awhile back (3 or so years ago) but never developed due to realignment/expansion activities happening then?

If Army became part of the AAC along with Navy, the ongoing scheduling with the AFA could be incorporated into a MWC-AAC 'PAC'. Others would do cross-games as well. It may help some financially, and strategically, for the TV sponsor to present some more interesting inter-conference games; and could captivate some enhanced bowl interest.

Coop agreements such as the PAC12-B1G attempt and the exploration of such between the ACC and the SEC, may be a good way to resolve some OOC scheduling issues, protect certain rivalries, provide a few more intriguing games, and offer enhanced, though limited, certain market penetration when expansion itself is not desired or available.

The problem, though, with these 'coop agreement' efforts is that certain schools within a given conference shall resist, putting their self-interests first, or do not see it benefiting themselves as much as certain other conference members.


While the AAC makes slightly more than the MWC, both AAC/MWC make about 2 million a year per schools in TV money which is about 18 million less than the Big 5 and 1 million less than the Big East, though 1 million more than CUSA.

The CUSA MWC thing was a way to balance out CUSA's/MWC's odd membership while it was influx so that their members wouldn't continue to leave for the Big East, and also for the pair to negotiate a higher price for their TV rights together however everyone but Big Ten and MAC (and SBC who sells game by game) have already signed a deal so that likely won't work for another 8-10 years.

It was also a roundabout way to try to get the autobid into the BCS which they kinda accomplished (but they had to add in the other 3 little conference) w/o having to have their CCG champs play each other.

The scheduling agreement would only decease their value as watching random mid sized East school play random mid sized West school just doesn't do anything for the networks or viewing public. Hawaii vs USC, or TCU vs SMU, or Temple vs PSU, or ECU vs NCSU, or USF vs Miami at least appeals somewhat to the regional audience.

I do see the benefit of expanding the SEC/ACC rivalries (for those that make sense) but not if it means forcing Ark/LSU/Mizzou to play VPI/Pitt/BC. The East (minus Mizzou) can easiliy pair up with with the ACC (FSU, Clem, GT, LVille, UNC, WF) but the East pairs more with the Big 12 (UT, OU, KU, OSU, TT). They should also probably try to work in other rivalries like ISU/Iowa, OU/Neb, Pitt/WVU, Sryacuse/Rutgers, MD/UVA, and even some of the exsisting annual/semi annual non-AQs like TCU/SMU, Utah/BYU or UtahSt, CU/CSU, or some that should be like UConn/BC, tOSU/Cincy, Miami/USF, PSU/Temple.

IMO there are 12 good OOC rivalries that could be locked down, plus 3 others that would work well, 8 Big Ten/PAC12 games that could rotate in some manner like they wanted, and 14 versus non-AQ rivalries (AAC+CSU/Boise/BYU) that are/could be played (mostly in state rivalries).

That only leaves about 4 games that would be 'forced' but still a few forced rivalries where none really exsist is better TV than the annual FCS slaughter weekend in mid Novemeber.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:10 pm 
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fighting muskie wrote:
I just don't see Air Force as a viable football-only member of the American. There was a brief window when it looked viable--back when the league was still the Big East and they had sold Boise St and tag-along San Diego St on the idea of a nation-wide, "best of the rest" football league. What the Big East needed to make that plan work were commitments from BYU and Air Force. To do this however AFA, Boise St, San Diego St and BYU all needed "conferences of convenience" for their other sports--Boise found the WAC (and later the Big West), San Diego St had the Big West, BYU was already snug in the WCC, but the AFA didn't have a suitable home. The WCC might have been suitable; so could the Summit. Ultimately BYU never committed to the vision and without BYU and without an autobid remaining in the MWC was the much safer route.

Agree, I'd like to see Navy go back to independence and for the AAC to add another member in the Southwest like Rice, Southern Miss, LA Tech or possibly even UTSA.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:14 pm 
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tkalmus wrote:
fighting muskie wrote:
I just don't see Air Force as a viable football-only member of the American. There was a brief window when it looked viable--back when the league was still the Big East and they had sold Boise St and tag-along San Diego St on the idea of a nation-wide, "best of the rest" football league. What the Big East needed to make that plan work were commitments from BYU and Air Force. To do this however AFA, Boise St, San Diego St and BYU all needed "conferences of convenience" for their other sports--Boise found the WAC (and later the Big West), San Diego St had the Big West, BYU was already snug in the WCC, but the AFA didn't have a suitable home. The WCC might have been suitable; so could the Summit. Ultimately BYU never committed to the vision and without BYU and without an autobid remaining in the MWC was the much safer route.

Agree, I'd like to see Navy go back to independence and for the AAC to add another member in the Southwest like Rice, Southern Miss, LA Tech or possibly even UTSA.


Same here. Army and Navy should be FBS Indies for a long time, and add another school like Rice or Southern Miss or Louisiana Tech or UTSA, or possibly UAB or UTEP.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:58 pm 
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ctx48c wrote:
Texas and Oklahoma do not want more than 10 members in the B12.
The ACC made a special deal for ND,they do not want UCONN.
Thus the illusion of Cinn,Conn abd UCF and USF going to the P5 is not likely to happen.Also the PAC 12 is holding at 12 members.Sure the B10 would like more members but they are from the ACC,but thats an unlikely happening.

Also BYU is having a hard time getting takers for its 2016 football schedule.
thus they may need to come back to the MWC.

Who are the adds for the AAC that would help football ?Army.
Then if Army joins another school would be needed to even the football conference membership.
After that there are MAC schools or CUSA schools.
Also A10 schools with good bb programs that would be other sports components for Army and Navy.


It doesn't matter that they only want 10 now, and that the ACC is totally fine w/ 15. Hell UConn may tell themselves that the B1G or B12 is still possible. They already had a taste of the good life and will never be happy as a cast off even if the NCAA said no more conf. expansion ever(which they don't have any control of anyway). Most still think that when the tv contract or the GOR comes up, the B12 will either expand or UT/OU/OSU/TT might give the Pac 12 another look. On the B12 end, if Cincy or UCF dominate the AAC year in and year out that may be enough to make them worth it to the B12. The easiest way for the B12 to go to 12 is pressure from the FBS b/c the other 9 will have ccgs. Also if the playoff committee continually passes over the B12 champ b/c they didn't play the 2nd best team at the end of the year sort of a play in if you will, like the other 4 big time conferences.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:53 pm 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
Army and Navy should be FBS Indies for a long time


It depends. It's about scheduling. Either they remain in a position to schedule whom they want or need to, or they don't. Scheduling late season games while most potential opponents are committed to conference play can pose problems for available times and dates. The other factor is whether or not they make more money as independents and what bowl tie-ins or options remain or offered to each. Maybe they can still do it effectively, but the crunch has grown.

SAs' have to be real careful about compatibilities. Locking-in to a group that exceeds their general level of performance is not what is desired. The SAs' too, want regular success and that effort includes selective scheduling.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:13 pm 
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sec03 wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
Army and Navy should be FBS Indies for a long time


It depends. It's about scheduling. Either they remain in a position to schedule whom they want or need to, or they don't. Scheduling late season games while most potential opponents are committed to conference play can pose problems for available times and dates. The other factor is whether or not they make more money as independents and what bowl tie-ins or options remain or offered to each. Maybe they can still do it effectively, but the crunch has grown.

SAs' have to be real careful about compatibilities. Locking-in to a group that exceeds their general level of performance is not what is desired. The SAs' too, want regular success and that effort includes selective scheduling.


If that point ever comes, I think it would be smarter for the SA's to drop down to FCS. Honestly Army should really consider it as they haven't been competitive in a decade.

All they'd really have to do is have a scheduling alliance with a Gang of 5 conference (or perhaps multiple ones) like CUSA/MAC/SBC for a few games a year and then get in their bowl line up like ND did in the ACC, as those smaller conferences may discover that they'll have trouble filling all these new bowls.

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