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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:25 am 
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I understand that this is the last year for the Villanova President.Also Villanova spends about 4 million per year on 1AA football and gets 8k fans to the games.If the games are moved to the Linc and they get 25-35k fans ,the financial difficulties will be minimized.The upgrading to 1A football would keep Villanova with the football schools if a breakup happens.Also why has ND not mentioned its 3rd opponent for 2011 in the BE?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:55 am 
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Tigershark, I agree with you that it would be great if this could happen. I live in Connecticut & have watched UConn upgrade their program with the support of the state legislature, the governor, the corporate community, & an entire state of fans who are crazy about UConn sports, following the recent success of men's & women's basketball. They also have an enormous alumni base both in-state & within a couple of hours nearby in New York & Boston. With all of that & a brand new facility, their attendance went from 15K to 30+K in the first year of BCS competition.

Villanova has none of these factors in their favor. UConn also was extremely successful in quickly building a winner in its transition years of IA competition. There benefitted both from luck & from an inclination for some in-state recruits to stay home because they trusted that UConn would do it right & get it done. There was no in-state competition for these recruits. Villanova would be competing with Penn State for Philadelphia area recruits.

Miami, USC, & NOtre Dame have all demonstrated that private schools can build national championship programs. Miami is the best example because they had none of the tradition of ND & USC when they got started in 1980. so the formula is have tradition, cheat like Miami, or get lucky with a Doug flutie like BC. Bottom line is that Villanova will need a lot of luck for this to work because they don't have the tradition (Howie Long aside) & the good Augustinian fathers won't be willing to cheat.

I'm pessimistic about the Villanova administration being willing to bet the farm on such a gamble. But you make a good observation about a new incoming president. As good an opportunity for change as they're likely to have for a long time to come. I would certainly wish them well in such an attempt & would enjoy it if it comes about . . . but I'm not holding my breath.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:01 pm 
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It will be tough for a city school to make the move. Sure, Miami is technically a city school, but look at all the FLA talent.

Why wouldn't UMass be a better (and more natural) bet to follow UConn?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:13 pm 
Agree, Westwolf. Of course that is contrary to the ideas of anti-split and pro-containment posters/supporters (who may be a part of the special interests of the private bb schools in the BE). In such mode of thinking or advocacy, there is little else other than Villanova if the BE is hoping for a full #9 for football.
Good point you made about UMASS. While UMASS studied, a couple years ago, the prospect of an upgrade and had publically known financial issues, the situation could change in a few years.
While the BE has limited expansion options in terms of landing big named schools (many talk about Memphis---the only thing northeastern about them is if one is talking about the Mississippi delta as the geographic reference), there is indeed an appreciable number of successful 1-AA schools in the northeast. UMASS, Delaware, Maine, James Madison, Northeastern, and William and Mary have had successes in recent years. If any of them are willing and able to upgrade within five to ten years, who knows. Even schools such as Hofstra or Fordham could be just as attractive (or unattractive) as Villanova in a given period of time.

Whatever the thoughts about UCONN, they have certainly been a good model for a school looking to upgrading. Of course, their situation had some unique dimensions that some others do not possess.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:32 pm 
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D&C,

Your comment about Memphis being north & east (maybe) of the Delta reminds me of Huey Long's solution to a problem. It seems that in the 1930's Memphis was becoming a growing competitior to New Orleans as a port. Huey took care of that by building a bridge across the Mississippi which was too low for freighters to pass under.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:51 pm 
"People say I steal. Well, all politicians steal. I steal. But a lot of what I stole has spilled over in no-toll bridges, hospitals....and to build this university."

Huey P. Long, Speech at Louisiana State University

"The only way I can lose is if I'm caught in bed with either a dead girl or a live boy"

Edwin Edwards, former Louisiana Governor

Hey, if the BE wants to venture all the way to Memphis, they can go a bit further and relieve LA Tech from the far away WAC ;D!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:17 pm 
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Dogs@thingys, spending some long summer days researching web boards finds myself thinking the Big East 16 team conference will work now and in the future. Many of the fans on local boards are very excited with the new 16 team basketball league which will be the best in the country for both TV markets and SOS. Almost all of the current Big East football schools have fans as interested in basketball as football. This fact has changed my mind about future Big East epansion for football needs.

Since there is no football school outside a BCS conference or Notre Dame that could help the future Big East remain BCS eligble, there is no reason to split up the 16 team league.

I think the 8 team football conference will be content to ride it out as the lowest rank BCS conference and always make up for being the best future BCS basketball conference. Revenue wise this makes sense as both mens football and mens basketball basically support most of college sports. If the Big East is best or tops in one of the major sports of the 6 BCS conferences who really cares if last in the other. Sort of like Vanderbilt and Baylor ride out the revenue in thier
conference not caring if last place as long as there is revenue to share.

Occasionally one of the 8 football schools will perform an old Big East Va Tech stunt and find it way into the BCS championship game or at minimum win a BCS game or two.

This season if Louisville or Pitt which are nationally ranked in pre season win the Big East BCS bowl, we will not hear any more about the Big East losing BCS membership or splitting. This comment is due to the fans. The fans are what make college sports work ($$$$) and if the fans support the new 16 team league it will survive.

I really like a 10 team all sports conference (i.e. Pac 10 which will have round robin football next year, however, there will be no conference that compares to the future Big East in the sport of basketball.

Can you imagine the excitement if the SEC suddently decided to expand to 16 football schools and took Miami Fla, FLorida State, Clemson, and Ga Tech.

This is exctly what has taken place in the more basketball orientated northeast fan base compared to the more football orientated south and southwest.

Many of the fans have spoken and I am convinced the new 16 conference is here to stay. There is no more threat to the Big East as the Big 10 would never expand and take someone other than Notre Dame. Unlike the past with no natural enemies (ACC expansion), the new Big East can use the South Florida requiting advantages to keep the lower pace of the BCS secure and make up revenue in the more prestigage basketball league. The new Big East basketball conference could succeed from the NCAA and take a great deal of the TV markets and interest if wanted to be greedy some day.

So forget Memphis, East Carolina, and other southern schools getting Big East membership. Primary reason the fans dont need or want them. Hopefully the new Conf USA can get back to some resemblance of its old self and East Carolina, Marshall, and the other 10 will be as happy as the 16 members of the new Big East.

My thoughts are the fans have spoken and the 16 Big East Conference is very well liked. I was surprised at many of my findings including some well known Big East football schools that suddenly have become basketball fanatics.

I see a future Big 10 round robin football schedule of 10 games with a 12 game regular season schedule. The Pac 10 will be very succcessful with round robin football and so will the Big 10 which is closely linked to the Pac 10.

I see more future Big East Notre Dame football games as Notre Dame will find it more hard to schedule quality teams to play at Notre Dame. Maybe Notre Dame fans will be happy with a seven game home patsy schedule, however, the network and national fan base will soon tire of this even if star Notre Dame is playing the host.

Maybe Cincinnatti is not Ohio State, however, it will be a BCS school that could play on future Notre Dame schedules. Otherwise, Notre Dame may be reduced to playing MAC schools if it wants to maintain a 7 or 8 game home schedule.

Notre Dame officials need to wake up and see that winning a bunch of games even if your Notre Dame is not going to matter if the SOS is not there.

Each year Notre Dame is being squeezed into the Big East and when and not if the Big 10 starts round robin football there will be less need by Big 10 schools to schedule Notre Dame especially playing at Notre Dame.

The Big 10 comes from a northern climate that is not very desirable to have a 12 team championship game in December so playing round robin football will eventually prove valuable. If Purdue wins the Big 10 this year without facing Ohio State and Michigan the case will become more important for round robin football. Unless you live in Chicago and attend a Bears game outdoors, how many Big 10 fans will want to travel to a championship game. The Florida Bowls are the primary reason Big 10 schools get top spots becasue the fans will travel to the games to get some warmth.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:27 pm 
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Lash, you bring up some interesting points. However, if you are viewing the conference from a purely financial standpoint, I wonder if the two groups would not be better with a split, especially the football schools.

Syracuse
Connecticut
Louisville
Cincinnati
Pittsburgh
West Virginia
Rutgers
South Florida

That is an IMPRESSIVE basketball group in its own right. In my opinion, this group could command a basketball television contract about equal to the group of 16. Now I realize that the Big East does not split football money with the non-football schools. However, if this group could get the same basketball money without dividing it 16 ways, a split would make good financial sense. Obviously I am just speculating.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:10 pm 
Wow Lash, you sort of took a U-turn with your sentiment. You may be correct in that many BE fans and posters on the INTERNET are pleased with the new BE bb arrangement and are comfortable with the 8 for fb. Certainly, that would be what the BE would want to portray, even if there may be silent agendas operating within.

I do agree with your point that with the exception of Notre Dame, all BCS type schools are already in BCS conferences, in terms of "reasonable" consideration for an further BE expansion. Certainly schools such as Utah and BYU, a case could be made they belong in a BCS-type conference.

Actually, my point has been persistent, in that if the BE was looking to schools such as Memphis, UAB, or Southern Miss, that is getting beyond their logical footprint, and is expansion just for expansion sake, or to achieve a championship game. While Memphis VS UCONN would usually make for interesting bb games; for football, it could pose for competitive games, but limited in driven excitement. At some point, geographic logic has to kick-in.

Where your points, Lash, may pose a concern are on two fronts: (a) The football schools, while not publicly advocating a split, do prefer a balanced (4 home, 4 away) conference schedule that 9 fb playing schools would provide (all playing 8 conference games). This issue may become more acute with schools being able to schedule 12 games per year in the future. (b) While the BE's BCS status is secure, for now, and they may be happy being the mythological #6 in the power images among the BCS, they cannot become too complacent with this in the future. Taking the results of last year, if the MWC, for example, produces a fine Utah team each year; and the BE delivers a mediocre Pittsburgh each year for the BCS, hypothetically speaking, there will be mounting pressure on the BCS, regardless of the tweaking in behalf of non-BCS conferences. It is understood the BE had a transitional situation last year; but with just eight teams, chances are greater, comparatively, that certain years, the BE's BCS entry may not be a top ten type team. Of course it could happen with other BCS conferences as well, but with more teams, a certain probability may exist in their favor---at least over an extended period of time.

Will the BE bb group allow the fb schools to add a #9 (other than ND or a currently non-associated BE school) if they come to the point of demanding it? While it would strengthen fb voting block in relation to the bb schools, it could also further satisfy the fb schools and forestall a split.

If Notre Dame FULLY joined BE fb, that would be perfect for the current BE structure and could hush any serious speculation of a split. In my opinion, it would be a plus for ND scheduling as well. However, we know this will not happen due to Notre Dame's firm desire to remain independent.

TS2 may be correct on the point of the BE holding together and looking within, or regionally, for greater scheduling contributions. I seriously doubt, though, Villanova would be in any position to deliver anything for BE fb in the near future, and Notre Dame, Army, and Navy will remain officially independent for at least another five years.

BCHokie reiterated a good point. The 8 fb BE schools, collectively, are also extraordinary bb schools. If fact, they look better for bb than they do for fb. Their profiles certainly do not look so dependent on the bb-only schools to look formidable. The bb only schools also look strong among themselves (for bb).

Whether the 16 team configuration holds together and handles the revenue, geographical, and priority issues in a pleasing way, remains to be seen. It is just starting out with the new arrangement, and there will be a diversity of schools and interests to keep satisfied. The BE has not been without its past squabbles, so it will all be followed with curiosity. Obviously, conferences that are "all sports institutions" with somewhat homogeneous profiles, have their differences too; but, by design, the BE may lend itself to greater internal posturing and positioning.

Who knows what will happen in the BE five or more years from now. Chances are strong though, it will look different.



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:14 pm 
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I just asked this question in another forum, but the BE does not split the football money with the non-FB schools? If so, then I guess that will help keep the 16 together.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:42 pm 
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The non-football schools, while collectively not as successful in the recent past as the football group, are still formidable and carry a lot of cache and name recognition.

Georgetown
Villanova
Saint Johns
Providence
Seton Hall
Notre Dame
Marquette
DePaul

Though this group may not command quite the basketball contact the all-sports group could on their own, it may still be enough to justify a split as the money divided eight ways may prove more lucrative than the bigger contract shared 16 ways.

Also, this group may find more success capitalizing on its heritage and identity as a group of Northeast, Catholic, Urban universities.

If a split were to come, this group should retain the name Big East.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:51 am 
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I have an idea about the realignment of the Big East Conference for this season (with the institutions the conference has recently):

Big East Conference - American Division

Cincinnati
Connecticut
DePaul
Louisville
Marquette
Providence
St. John’s (N.Y.)
Villanova

Big East Conference - National Division

Georgetown
Notre Dame
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
Seton Hall
South Florida
Syracuse
West Virginia

Any questions? Catch you guys up later :)

John

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Florida State Seminoles fan for life (mostly on football, basketball and baseball)! 2013 ACC football Atlantic Division champions; 2013 ACC football regular season champions; 2013 ACC football conference bowl tournament champions; 2014 NCAA D-I FBS BCS national champions!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:06 am 
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If the current Big East were to split into two separate conferences, there could still be many synergies that the two could share. As far as basketball is concerned the two could hold an annual made-for-TV challenge, like the ACC-Big Ten Challenge. In fact, it could be bigger by featuring even more cross-conference games. This would bulk up out-of-conference schedules for both groups, maintain many old and traditional rivalries, and probably could become a major event that captivates the mega-media markets of the Northeast. This would hold true for both men’s and women’s basketball, but such an arrangement could also be beneficial for non-revenue sports.

I believe that most of the non-football schools play football at the I-AA level. This group could sponsor I-AA football for their member schools rather than play in the CAA. These schools could/should form a partnership with the I-A schools to play as I-AA opponents. Especially with the new 12 game rule, this could help the I-A schools with their home schedules.

However, as I stated previously, the Catholic schools should retain the name Big East. They should also retain Madison Square Garden as the annual site of their basketball tournament. As for the new all-sports conference a new name and tournament venue would be needed.

Regarding expansion, that subject has been beaten to death. However, I will add my two cents.

For the all-sports conference:

#9 – Temple: Provides presence in the Philadelphia market and adds another strong basketball program. I believe the football is hopeless, but the trade-off for basketball and media presence may be worth it. This addition would balance the home-away schedule for the entire conference.

#10 – East Carolina: Though down lately, ECU has a strong football tradition. It was said somewhere on this board that ECU is the perfect example of a program hurt by the BCS system. If they are a part of a BCS conference, the program would improve dramatically. I believe that ECU would fit the mold of what Virginia Tech accomplished in the Big East. Also, ECU has a history of competition with many of the Big East schools and of course the new Conference USA additions. Additionally, the campus is not too much of a geographical oddity. While not contiguous with the other states, North Carolina acts as a nice bridge into the Southeast reaching to Florida. Conversely, Memphis would stick out as a geographic stretch much the same as USF. ECU’s basketball program would probably be mid-pack at best, but if the Conference were looking for number ten to boost numbers and competitiveness, ECU is a nice fit to complement Temple’s basketball program.

#11/#12 – Massachusetts and Delaware: It has been kicked around quite a bit regarding the conference upgrading I-AA programs. These two are state flagship institutions located in the hart of the geographic region. With the right plan, these two could be brought in if the Conference chose to expand to a 12 team super-conference.

For the Big East:

If the Catholic schools chose to expand by one, two, or four pick any group of Duquesne, Xavier, Saint Joseph’s, LaSalle, Fordham, Holy Cross(?) or Saint Bonaventure. Duqesne and Xavier are especially nice bridges to Notre Dame, Marquette, and DePaul. The others are all located in the Northeast conference heart.

Again, this is all just my opinion.


Last edited by bchokie on Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:15 pm 
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A few thoughts . . .

1. If the conference splits, Northeast is no longer the geographic location of the football majority & is only desirable for it's markets, but not for the proximity of rivals. The majority of the members (4) are now in the Ohio Valley with 3 others in the Northeast & 1 in the Southeast. From this perspective, Memphis may be highly desirable to the new majority.

2. I agree with Lash that people seem happy for now with the 16 team conference. The difference between this monstrosity & the old WAC monstrosity is that it is impossible to play all other members in a 16 team football conference, but it can be done in a 16 team basketball conference if the membership so desires - just not home & home.

3. Is there any incentive for the football schools to continue with the hybrid conference but with a reduced 12 team membership? In this scenario, St. John's, Villanova, & Georgetown would be retained for their basketball markets & ND stays for . . . whatever. The incentive for the continued hybrid is that this would dissolve the conference by NCAA rule because there would be less than 5 members remaining on the basketball side. Technically the football schools would not be kicking the remaining 4 bb schools out; the fb schools + 4 would be exiting. There is no way to kick other schools out. (Temple fb was an exception because they were not a full member but an associate member. Their membership was up for review under the initial agreement.) The result is that bb credits would revert to the members who owned them & the name Big East would be available, subject to any contractual considerations in the by-laws.

4. Is there a disincentive for continuing with the hybrid in a modified 8+4 format? Actually, the incentive for the modified hybrid is all with the fb schools. Obviously there is a big disincentive for PC, SH, DePaul, & Marquette. But there is also a disincentive for SJU, Vill, G't, & ND. As the minority, they would no longer have a balance of power in voting. The same divide & conquer strategy that was used on the other 4 could again be used on them to again dissolve the conference, only then to be reformed as an all-sports conference with the Big East name. Incentives would only exist for any of these 4 if they decide to join for fb, which is an option only for ND & probably Villanova. It is not a realistic option for either St. John's or Georgetwon.

Cheers,
Friar


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:33 pm 
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BC Hokie, you make a good point on the 8 Big East football schools could possibly make the same revenue without the other 8 schools, however, your own ACC is a good example of expanding and not making any more revenue for the orginial schools. The orgininal ACC schools could have continued to make the same amount of revenue without 12 teams and the made for TV championship game. I think it comes down to numbers regardless if its football or baskeball schools. The Big East schools will now have the opportunity to play in Chicago, NYC, Wash DC, Cincinnatti, Tampa Bay, etc.

Friarfan, good points as always on Big East politics.

DogsnC@cks, I agree that a 9th football team will be needed for the Big East due to 12 game regular season schedules to match other conferences with 8 games and soon to be 9 conference games for Pac 10 conference. This issue leads right to the heart of Notre Dame. Notre Dame can remain as stubborn as its wants to and will end up like the US car makers a few years back. Just keep making the old gas hogging clonkers and see if America buys the product. My previous points reflect a need for Big 10 to play round robin football and would only allow 2 non conference games. I dont know about your thoughts and Penn State, however, would not want to play 10 Big 10 games and away game at Notre Dame. This would be true for Michigan and Mich St as well.

So! its just inevitable that Notre Dame will be forced to make a choice on conference affiliation for football. Its a 50/50 on Big East versis Big 10.

Either way the Big East football schools will eventually get the 9th football member and not impact the new 16 member basketball conference.

If I were the East Carolina's, UMass's, Marshall's of the world would hope the Big 10 someday convinces Notre Dame that playing in the Big 10 is better than the Big East. This is big question mark! Would Notre Dame football be better in the Big 10 or Big East? I am not really sure. My thoughts are the Big East is a better fit for an ego the size of Notre Dame, otherwise, the school would just be one of the 12 in the Big 10.


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