ND change leagues for all sports and added 2-3 more footbal games with acc schools they did not have before with BE schools.
What did they get in return 1.access to a national championship bowl for football.

Tute, you need to factor in pecking order within the Big 5. For instance, is the Big Ten were to reach out to a number of Big 12 schools, they would jump ship in a heartbeat. So it's not like the Big Ten is limited to only, say, Rutgers and Uconn.

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Tute, I am glad you list the numbers, and reflected on the possibilities of whom may be promising for joining the Big 5 conference group. In general, that's the impression.

Quinn, I like your point. What's to stop the Big 5 group from raids/defections on each other another time or more? We know discontent can happen, and there shall be certain schools always looking for better fiscal arrangements and associations.

I have a few question anyone may respond to:

(1) Folks talk about 14 and 16 for conference sizes. Suppose, for example, ND really does completely join the ACC for all sports down the road, but the ACC decides to hold at 15.
Can the #15 work for conference size? The MAC worked with 13. I can see whereby 15 is fine for bb, but how could a "pod" system of 3 "5s'" work in fb? How could the two conference members be selected for a CCG using a pod system or two divisions with one division having one more member than the other?

(2) 12 sounds comfortable given the # of conference fb & bb games to be played. 14 sounds stretched, but workable if the new additions bring market value as the SEC pursued. But at 16, do the rumblings begin for some kind of split---the "haves" stike out from the rest? At 16, would not the argument increase that certain conference members have easier schedules than some others?

(3) Is there to be a huge divide as to what constitutes the Big 5 and the Big East, plus others? The way broadcasting contracts have gone, and how top bowls are re-structuring their selections, it looks that way. So is it indeed that certain schools outside the Big 5 are earmarked to be absorbed to really make the elite club crystal clear?
I am not seeing that the elite conferences all want to be the same numbers; and note that some such as the PAC12 have such constrained criteria that any adding would be very difficult to achieve.

Guys for starters, no school is going to jump from the Pac 12, Big Ten, or Big 12 because of GOR.

Regardless if the Big Ten or Pac 12 wanted a Big 12 school the conferences would need to wait a minimum of 13 years.

GOR are water tight without no way around it. As rich as Texas is the school could not afford leave 260 million dollars on the table to leave the Big 12.

The 50 million dollar exit fee of the ACC is pretty hefty as well and just can’t see an ACC school jumping ship.

That leaves one of the Big 5 without any exit or GOR fees.

Maybe Missouri is talking about a jump from the SEC to the Big Ten.

With the results Missouri has experience in the first year of SEC, the school may do anything to escape the SEC.

Answer to question 1

The ACC could very well stay at 15 if neither Louisville or Rutgers can significant increase the ACC's tv market. A 15 team football schedule wouldn't be that difficult. I posted this previously on the ACC thread. Split into 3 divisions.

Atlantic- Notre Dame, Syracuse, Pitt, BC, Maryland
Coastal- UNC, Duke, NC State, Wake, Clemson
Football- FSU, Miami, Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, Virginia

Play each team in your division then play 2 teams from each of the other divisions. That's 8 games which the ACC just recently went back too. The ACC championship game would be played by the 2 highest ranked division champions.
I bet the ACC wishes it had this option this year considering that this year's Coastal Division Champ will probably have 4 losses and be unranked.

In basketball, take the same 3 divisions, play home and home with your division then play one division away and one division at home. That's an 18 game schedule.

Seanbo, believe you are on the general track of what such (#15) may look like and do note you posted the model before.

While each design/model will have problems, having one that selects the CCG participants via polls could get controversial fast. Due to polls, if a higher ranked school gets selected over one with fewer conference losses (factoring in OOCs' in polling), that will not go over well. Also with the pods, the Carolinas cluster for fb looks like real easy travel and convenience compared to the other two, recognizing though, there would also be playing four others from the other two pods. But, if the pods purpose shall be primarily for scheduling as opposed to representation, then the rationale has more sense. Still, the big problem factor would be the reliance on a poll. Of course, the conference could use instead a complicated math formula that may end up confusing more than resolving. All that said, I suppose 15 could work if the ACC members can agree on multiple details.
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Lash's point on GORs' and exit fees is certainly key in that the process cannot be particularly fluid right now per inter-conference shifts among the Big 5. Broadcasters, though, seem to have a growing hand in conference make-ups, and thus, may help in facilitating changes that the network(s) see may be more profitable for their coverage. Also, as has been seen particularly with the BE comings and goings, exit fees and departure dates, end up being negotiating points involving arbitration and/or lawsuits at times.

The ACC's recent, huge self-imposed exit fees, has to be motivated out of fear that a conference member could jump to one of the other Big 5 conferences in the future. Since FSU and Maryland voted against it, at the very least, these two, and probably others, have had "soft" talks with other conferences as a prelude to any future contempation of expansion if the situation arises. That does not mean firm or standing offers or even a serious level of interest; but may mean exploratory just in case.

As to the B12 specifically, I think they may just hang at 10 awhile and see what they will be getting, during the next several years, placed into top bowls and the national championship game. If they find out they are getting shut-out by conference champions that went through a CCG via national polling, then they could reconsider quickly with the motive.

I have to believe the Big XII won't have the kind of autonomy it wants to define its own future. Therefore, I don't think they can really "wait and see." They will say they are, but the Notre Dame move, a true loss for the Big XII because of where the Irish went instead, is really going to force the expansion matter in a lot of conferences, and is already.

The matter I'm concerned with most is what happens in the Big Ten now that Notre Dame just cut off Michigan, one of the conference's most national games? That, the potential for the Big Ten losing another national game off of ND's schedule, and the PAC-crossover deal falling through, does the Big Ten appear more isolated in the Rust Belt? I know they are worth more money than most conferences...but people are leaving the Midwest, not flocking toward it. They need eastern tentpoles...

But, if the Big Ten needs them, then where would that leave the even-more isolated Big XII? Hint: the Big XII has had two epic shootouts the last two weeks courtesy of WVU. If you're in Philly or NYC, what major broadcast station aired those gems? Me, sitting out there in basic cable land, can tell you: nowhere to be found.

The Bishin Cutter,
Either you have a very bad cable company in Philly and NYC or either of those markets could care less about college football.

I am probably thinking it is s little of both. Rutgers can’t fill up its stadium for a conference game and Temple can fill up the bottom half of the Lincoln stadium.

Syracuse attendance looked awful playing at the time top rated USC. I did catch part of this game on TV.

Maybe you should move to Phoenix because WVU games verses Texas, Maryland, Baylor, and even the instate game with Marshall were on basic cable in the Phoenix area if anyone wanted to watch those particular games.

Of those games, I did catch the WVU/Baylor game on TV which was very exciting and sorry you missed that game living in Philly. If you like offence that game was over the top.

Of course maybe Phoenix just cares more for college sports.

This is the sad situation that has plagued the Big East for years, no one in the large eastern markets cares about college football.

There must be a reason the Big Ten did not expand into NY or NJ.

You couldn't be more wrong. With the basic cable option in Philly through Comcast, I get Penn State games locally through ABC or one of the other locals (sometimes WPHL), ACC/Big East/Notre Dame on NBC and ABC (yeah, our NBC affiliate is interesting), SEC on CBS (and the SA's), the Allentown/Bethlehem station carries Lehigh and Lafayette, one of the basic Comcast stations covers UPenn. Oh, and we get the Colonial coverage, too.

Believe me when I say I'm not starved. Nobody with basic cable in the area ever was.

The point simply is that the Big XII doesn't have basic exposure here. It practically never has. And I suspect this is why the Big XII approached Pitt...it would have gotten them here.

Ok help me out since you are so right and I am so wrong?

Do you have to pay extra for FX which is where Fox Big 12 games are played on Phoenix cable when not on the national Fox channels or ABC/ ESPN. FX comes with my basic cable which provide me Big 12 games that do not make it on ESPN, ABC, or FOX.

If you can’t get Fox cable games in Philadelphia then tell how is your cable company better than mine?

Your negativity over Louisville getting jilted by the Big 12 is like an old jealous girl friend that can’t let go and just keeps on stalking.

Did you get WVU/Texas game in Philly? This was the second highest rated game of the weekend topped only by Ohio State/Nebraska. Just think what those rating would have generated if this Big 12 game was available in NYC and Philadelphia? You are implying this game was not on Fox national network in Philly correct?

There was a reason Fox wanted WVU over Louisville and being a jealous girlfriend over this fact is not going to change this fact.

Get over it already! Sheeze Louise!

It just occurred to me that you have issues with WVU getting into the Big 12 over Louisville had more to do with the impacts this decision had on requiring and exposure with Pitt and Penn State compared to Louisville being left out the cold. I get it now you are Penn State graduate. Just could not figure out what all the love for Louisville was about.

Maybe I get FX with basic cable because the Pac 12 has Fox as well. The Big 12 games are early on FX and the Pac 12 games start latter.

What happens if the Fox which is supposedly interested in the Big East and FX cable becomes available free in all those eastern and Midwestern cable markets. Just think of the exposure the Big 12 and Pac 12 would gain in those markets.

Maybe what Pitt and Penn State need is to worry less about cable exposure for competing conferences because networks are created almost every day and worry more about how the ACC and Big Ten can improve in football.

Texas and Ohio State just agreed to play in Austin in 2022 and Columbus in 2023. For some, it appears scheduling big OOC games are for a decade out. Major names are certainly wanting to improve their strength of schedule for the new playoff system.

If the B12 does not expand by that time renewing the CCG, it usually would be one less game played for a potential B12 representative. How the polls, formula, and the selection committee may treat this factor is not real clear. It may be as in the current-to-old BCS system, it helps some some years and hurts others other years. Having and winning appreciably a CCG has to be a plus with pollsters. This excludes the variables of peaking, fatigue, and emotion that can seem to go either way.

Mac Brown has expressed his emotions before to influence or react to placements. And the tears of Turbeville have happened. Of course, by another decade, the way coaching turnovers go most everywhere, there will be a new cast of characters, most, unfortunately for some, less colorful.

We should keep in mind the Big 12 will have played 9 conference games round robin in comparison to a conference such as the SEC and ACC that will have played nine conference games with a CCG. This is a basically a wash.

With the SEC refusing to play 9 conference games and the ACC reverting back to 8 conference games, the Big 12 should be in good shape without the need of a CCG to reach the four team playoff.

The only type of disadvantage that could come into play is the Big 12 OOC schedule can only accommodate 3 OOC games where the other leagues will be playing an 8 game conference schedule with four OOC games.

If for some reason the U of Florida were compared to the U of Texas and both had one loss each going into consideration for one of the four playoff spots and Florida played a more difficult OOC compared to Texas, this could be the only possible advantage.

While the OOC scheduling is already improving with potential four team playoff, I can’t see the University of Florida taking the risk to over schedule with OOC compared to Texas. Otherwise the SEC would not be resisting a 9 game conference schedule.

For example if U of Texas scheduled Ohio State, Ole Miss, and say cream puff New Mexico and U of Florida scheduled Florida State, Wisconsin, and two cream puffs such as 1AA team and Conf USA team it is still a wash.

There are two very important factors the Big 12 has going for it in the future, one is round robin football and the second is every school will play a very solid conference football schedule with round robin schedules.

Round robin is truly the best method to determine the true strength of a team and it sadly what most of college basketball conferences are missing these days. The thing with college basketball that helps with this situation is there are 64 bids and football only 4 for now.

In the above scenario where U of Florida had one loss to say Georgia and did not reach the SEC CCG and were competing with a one loss Texas and Florida schedule did not play the cross over top SEC games that season, a CCG requiring divisions would become a very negative factor in determining one of four playoff spots. This would be especially true if Texas only loss were to say Oklahoma yet played every other Big 12 member and Florida skipped playing top rated Alabama and LSU for example. U of Texas would more than likely get a bid over a one lose U of Florida in this scenario.

Less take another scenario where the ACC champions and the Big 12 champion went undefeated and the ACC played a championship game, until the ACC makes major improvement in football depth by each member, the Big 12 champion due to round robin schedule would get the bid in every case in this scenario. Texas would most likely have faced multiple top 20 conference mates where as Florida State could have faced very few top 20 conference teams and possibly missed playing a ranked ACC team in another division that did not reach the championship game.

Keep in mind the new system with a committee will not be paying attention to pre season ranking where one team is just lucky to get ranked higher and gets and is not jumped in the polls.

I see the lack of Big 12 CCG having a positive impact with a much higher percentage in most cases on reaching the four team playoff compared to a conference with a championship game.

The primary reason for this benefit is the Big 12 is a very good football league. This year for example the conference top to bottom is matching up with previous top ranked SEC and could very well pass the SEC this year.

If he Big 12 continues to play at the current level in football and this no indication of drop off in the future, there is simply no requirement for a CCG for the Big 12 and round robin just reinforces SOS.

You simple can find enough of an argument to justify a CCG is better for the Big 12 unless you want the extra cash for TV.

Besides the first time the Big Ten, Pac 12, or ACC misses out on one of the four playoff spots because their lower seed team beat a higher seed I do not want to hear the crying because those schools wanted the extra cash for a made for TV game. This scenario has by far more change to occur than most of the other scenarios.

Lash, as to your question regarding FX on the basic Comcast lineup here in the Philly burbs: no, sorta. At one time, FX was on a basic cable plan, but has since been bumped to "standard." It's on standard where stuff like TNT, ESPNs, B1G, Fox Sports, USA, and other Comcast material resides. There isn't much rhyme or reason to it: we get A&E and TBS on basic...recently, we even picked up TVLand (but not Nickelodeon).

The matter still stands: if one wants to watch Big XII material, they need to pay up on their cable bill, find a bar carrying the games, or go online. That's not a problem to most, but it's an exposure issue other conferences needn't worry about.

The Bishin Cutter,
Sorry I forgot what the point of our debate was about.

Were we talking about the lack of cable exposure in Philly is impacting the Big 12? I guess you are arguing this point since we are on the Big 12 thread.

If yes, then how important is the fact that Big 12 games on Fox cable (FX) are televised in Philly on standard cable? Is Philly that important of local market for cable for the Big 12? What point are you trying to make here with concerns of the Big 12?

It is important to note that not all Big 12 games not picked for national Fox and ABC will always be regulated to Fox affiliated cable. Per shared contract, ESPN gets to pick some Big 12 games as well so the Big 12 will continue to get national exposure on ESPN in the Philly market for cable (i.e. TCU/Virginia on ESPN). So it not like the Big 12 or Pac 12 which have similar contacts with both national networks will not have games on ESPN family of networks (ESPN, ESPN2, etc) in the Philly market for cable.

Also important to note is ESPN will continue to carry the majority of Big 12 games for basketball and all of those Big 12 games will be on ESPN networks in Philly. If your point is about WVU losing Philly as a local market, it will not hurt much for basketball as WVU will get as much exposure in the eastern market in basketball as the school did with the Big East concerning ESPN networks. My question is does WVU really care if the football program is on cable in the Philly market? Does the school requite that much in Philly?. I do not know the answer with this question. I do know most Big 12 schools requite Texas heavily and the cable argument has not point with Texas markets. I am guessing that WVU is much more interested in be televised for football in Texas compared to Philadelphia as far as future requiting is concerned.

It is also important to discuss the particular cable carrier as the Pac 12 is having issues getting the Pac 12 network on Direct TV. Dish is carry the Pac 12 where Direct TV is refusing to carry the Pac 12 network. This is an issue for local markets and is important for Pac 12 schools because local markets can’t not get some games. A game with U or Arizona verses say Washington State that is moved to the Pac 12 network will not be available to fans subscribing to Direct TV.

So again why is it important in your argument for Philly to be a local cable market for the Big 12? Obviously for some reason your trying to demonstrate some type of weakness in the Big 12 and you’re not making a good argument on this fact. The networks would tend to agree with me as well as they are paying more for the Big 12 in comparison to both the ACC and Big East and about equal to the local affiliated Big Ten that should be carrying the Philly market.

As for Philly market, the Big East obviously did not believe the Philly market was critical for Big East football or the conference would never have kicked out Temple in the first place? Again does anybody in Philly not affiliated with Penn State actually care about college football? Or maybe better stated to the extent would watch a game that gets regulated to the level of a local cable market for college football. If no one in Philly cares about Temple, how can you expect the market to care about games such as Kansas/Kansas State, or Wake/Duke, or Arizona/Washington State that get regulated to basic cable and many of these type of game may get regulated to cable that is not include in the local cable markets with basic cable subscriptions.