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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 1:20 am 
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The Bishin Cutter wrote:
What made the potential absorption of the Big XII North into the Big East were the basketball schools out that way. Adding the Kansas schools, Iowa State, and Missouri was very conceivable because of schools like Marquette, DePaul, and Notre Dame. TCU-BE, while a radical move for 2010, wasn't that terribly disconnected from the Big East through USF, and because of DFW's accessibility.

...but UConn might as well be Hawaii sitting that far out there. The closest school to them would be West Virginia or Cincy (assuming they were picked). It helps nobody, really.

At the very least, they should get Cincinnati for 11, then petition the NCAA for that CCG and other considerations.


Hawaii??? Seriously? You might want to check the distances.

It actually helps West Virginia a lot. In a divisional set up, they would replace a school 1500 miles away with a school 500 miles away. I'd call that a big improvement.

The NCAA has made it clear in the past that they are not allowing CCG games for conferences with 11 members. If they wouldn't do it for the ACC, they're not doing it for the Big XII. That solution is a pipe dream.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 1:23 am 
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westwolf wrote:
BYU and Boise make a better package and would add some weight to the north division.


But it wouldn't solve the West Virginia problem.

Now that the Big XII has made the commitment to go east, they probably have to continue to look in that direction rather than exacerbating the situation with a far flung western wing. What's the distance from Morgantown, WV to Boise, ID?


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 6:52 am 
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friarfan wrote:
fighting muskie wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
Instead of finding Texas schools, how about these possibilities?

Adding Central Florida and South Florida:

Big 12 North: Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, West Virginia
Big 12 South: Baylor, Central Florida, South Florida, TCU, Texas, Texas Tech

Adding Cincinnati and BYU:

Big 12 North: BYU, Cincinnati, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, West Virginia
Big 12 South: Baylor, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, TCU, Texas, Texas Tech


I agree that the Florida schools would be a great move. The problem is that the Big XII has already committed to West Virginia and Florida does nothing to help with that.


Then West Virginia should leave the Big XII to join the ACC, and have another school like Cincinnati to replace it, plus adding the 2 Florida schools. That might work out.

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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 9:50 am 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
friarfan wrote:
fighting muskie wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
Instead of finding Texas schools, how about these possibilities?

Adding Central Florida and South Florida:

Big 12 North: Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, West Virginia
Big 12 South: Baylor, Central Florida, South Florida, TCU, Texas, Texas Tech

Adding Cincinnati and BYU:

Big 12 North: BYU, Cincinnati, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, West Virginia
Big 12 South: Baylor, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, TCU, Texas, Texas Tech


I agree that the Florida schools would be a great move. The problem is that the Big XII has already committed to West Virginia and Florida does nothing to help with that.


Then West Virginia should leave the Big XII to join the ACC, and have another school like Cincinnati to replace it, plus adding the 2 Florida schools. That might work out.


I agree that would be a good plan, but the ACC has no interest in West Virginia.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 10:41 am 
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friarfan wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
friarfan wrote:
fighting muskie wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
Instead of finding Texas schools, how about these possibilities?

Adding Central Florida and South Florida:

Big 12 North: Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, West Virginia
Big 12 South: Baylor, Central Florida, South Florida, TCU, Texas, Texas Tech

Adding Cincinnati and BYU:

Big 12 North: BYU, Cincinnati, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, West Virginia
Big 12 South: Baylor, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, TCU, Texas, Texas Tech


I agree that the Florida schools would be a great move. The problem is that the Big XII has already committed to West Virginia and Florida does nothing to help with that.


Then West Virginia should leave the Big XII to join the ACC, and have another school like Cincinnati to replace it, plus adding the 2 Florida schools. That might work out.


I agree that would be a good plan, but the ACC has no interest in West Virginia.


Then why would West Virginia to join the Big XII in the first place?

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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 4:19 pm 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
friarfan wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
friarfan wrote:
fighting muskie wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
Instead of finding Texas schools, how about these possibilities?

Adding Central Florida and South Florida:

Big 12 North: Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, West Virginia
Big 12 South: Baylor, Central Florida, South Florida, TCU, Texas, Texas Tech

Adding Cincinnati and BYU:

Big 12 North: BYU, Cincinnati, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, West Virginia
Big 12 South: Baylor, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, TCU, Texas, Texas Tech


I agree that the Florida schools would be a great move. The problem is that the Big XII has already committed to West Virginia and Florida does nothing to help with that.


Then West Virginia should leave the Big XII to join the ACC, and have another school like Cincinnati to replace it, plus adding the 2 Florida schools. That might work out.


I agree that would be a good plan, but the ACC has no interest in West Virginia.


Then why would West Virginia to join the Big XII in the first place?


Uhh . . .

Money? :idea: :o


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 5:08 pm 
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friarfan wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
fighting muskie wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
Instead of finding Texas schools, how about these possibilities?

Adding Central Florida and South Florida:

Big 12 North: Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, West Virginia
Big 12 South: Baylor, Central Florida, South Florida, TCU, Texas, Texas Tech

Adding Cincinnati and BYU:

Big 12 North: BYU, Cincinnati, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, West Virginia
Big 12 South: Baylor, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, TCU, Texas, Texas Tech


I like the version with the Florida schools. It gives a good balance between North and South by splitting up Texas and Oklahoma. Unfortunately for the other 8 members and any Big 12 hopefuls like USF, UCF, and Cincy I don't see the Big 12 expanding. I think Texas and Oklahoma will fight to keep the league at 10 members until the GoR is up and then either leverage the other members for even more concessions favorable to the Big 2 or dart to the SEC--by then things will have cooled off between the Horns and the Aggies enough that they can make peace. Alabama and Auburn will slide over to the SEC East and the SEC West will be:

Ole Miss
Miss St
LSU
Arkansas
Missouri
Oklahoma
Texas
Texas A&M


If the SEC plans to expand Texas and Oklahoma, what would be the future of the other 8 schools of the Big 12?


The SEC can plan all they want, but Texas would have to be interested. All indications so far is that they are not. Without Texas, Oklahoma has also shown no interest. It appears that OU and Oklahoma State are a package deal and there's no indication that the SEC would be interested in that.

Texas A&M gave the SEC a foothold in Texas and they seem to be okay with that.


I agree with you on OU and Okie State. I think they are a package deal. I think I read something about that 3 or 4 years ago, it had something to do with the Oklahoma State Legislature. I could be wrong about that, but it sure seems like they passed something along those lines. But beyond that, no disrespect to OU and Texas, I am native Oklahoman, I don't believe that Stoops or Mack Brown want any part of life in the SEC. The recruiting is totally different and coaching in the SEC is much more cut-throat.
I honestly believe that if OU and Texas wanted to leave the Big XII, they would go to the Pac 12/14/16 or even the Big 10/14/16/18/20 long before they ever considered the SEC.

I think the Big 12 would be wise to go ahead and expand with Cincy, BYU, UCF, and USF.
Cincy helps WVU with travel. UCF and USF, while they may be distant travel partners, are a huge plus to WVU. Florida is the key to recruiting for WVU. They have pulled a ton of talent out of this state for many years. Getting cut off from Florida would be about as painful as OU getting cutting off from Texas recruits. Plus both of those schools are fairly young and have huge student enrollments. Which in years to come should lead to huge financial endowments. In addition to that, it would be a way of getting back at the SEC for getting into the fertile Texas recruiting grounds. By adding those schools, the Big 12 would be on the TV sets of every household in the I-4 corridor (Tampa/St Pete-Orlando-Daytona Beach-Melbourne). Plus I think both UCF and USF would be willing to take some sort of staggered deal in terms of revenue from the conference. Maybe say an 8 year window where they work up to being full share conference members. In all honesty, anything would be better than what they are getting in the AAC. (yes, I admit that I am a UCF homer)
Lastly, BYU, they bring a solid athletic tradition and if the Big 12 can work out an arrangement with them in terms of contractual demands, I think they fit very nicely in the Big 12.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 5:17 pm 
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friarfan wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
friarfan wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
friarfan wrote:
fighting muskie wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
Instead of finding Texas schools, how about these possibilities?

Adding Central Florida and South Florida:

Big 12 North: Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, West Virginia
Big 12 South: Baylor, Central Florida, South Florida, TCU, Texas, Texas Tech

Adding Cincinnati and BYU:

Big 12 North: BYU, Cincinnati, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, West Virginia
Big 12 South: Baylor, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, TCU, Texas, Texas Tech


I agree that the Florida schools would be a great move. The problem is that the Big XII has already committed to West Virginia and Florida does nothing to help with that.


Then West Virginia should leave the Big XII to join the ACC, and have another school like Cincinnati to replace it, plus adding the 2 Florida schools. That might work out.


I agree that would be a good plan, but the ACC has no interest in West Virginia.


Then why would West Virginia to join the Big XII in the first place?


Uhh . . .

Money? :idea: :o


Oh, ok... But besides that? West Virginia should had stayed in the old Big East for a few years before leaving the conference.

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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 7:00 am 
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friarfan wrote:
The NCAA has made it clear in the past that they are not allowing CCG games for conferences with 11 members. If they wouldn't do it for the ACC, they're not doing it for the Big XII. That solution is a pipe dream.


Big differences between the ACC of ten years ago and the Big XII of today. The NCAA knew enough about the ACC expansion to know the only reason the ACC wanted eleven and the CCG was because it didn't initially want to snub either BC or Syracuse of a spot in the conference, because they were a package deal. It's not like the ACC couldn't find schools it wanted that also wanted the ACC.

The Big XII on the other hand, it's all unrequited. The schools that want in aren't desired, and the ones that hold the B12's fancy don't want anything to do with the conference. There isn't consensus on expansion, only that the conference wants access to the CCG benefits, despite round-robin play. I still feel there is SO much this conference can do with eleven that it can't with ten, and not having to take twelve, the situation would be much different.


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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 9:46 am 
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Hey it been a while since I last posted on this board.

An observation on this board has many not understanding what a travel partner benefit is for as school or a conference. A travel partner is not necessarily intended to benefit the partner school and more benefits for the other schools. For example the Pac 12 schools benefit far more by have both Arizona schools in the conference because a Washington State school can travel to both Arizona schools in Thursday and Saturday with one trip. Ditto an Arizona school traveling to Washington state and playing two schools in the same trip. The benefit for having both Arizona schools in the Pac 12 is for regional rivalry games between both of those Arizona schools.

If the Big 12 someday decides to expand to 12 schools there must be benefit to all 10 of the current schools for those two additional schools.

This is going to make some West Virginia fans go ballistic, however, I think Marshall could be a very good benefit to the Big 12. A Texas school could travel into West Virginia and play two schools in one trip. West Virginia could then have a true regional games with a built in natural rivalry.

Since the Big 12 Tier 3 is setup as a different model compared to the Big 10 and soon to be SEC networks and TV markets are not necessarily as important as a good regional rival games, Marshall makes better sense to me compared to a school such as Cincinnati if the Big 12 wants to help West Virginia with travel issues and provided some benefit to other 9 schools as well. The WVU/Marshall football game televised in the Phoenix market last year on Big 12 Fox drew fairly good TV ratings for a far off regional game.

Now that the ACC is fairly stable with a GOR signed from potential Big Ten poaching and Florida State and Clemson are not a possibility (both schools were most likely SEC bound in the first place if the ACC imploded by Big Ten advancements), the best option by far for the Big 12 to me is BYU. I know there is the Sunday issue with BYU not wanting to play games, however, this could be worked out in schedules for basketball and other varsity sports and really does not impact football which is the primary revenue sport. Do we really need to see BYU basketball games on Sunday?

So if the Big 12 wants 12 schools for a football championship game and really wants to keep up with the might of SEC football, two football orientated schools would be very important. Marshall has been very good in the past in football and both Marshall and BYU have each won national championships in football with Marshall winning the old FCS and BYU winning the old prior BCS title.

The Big 12 could then split into a South/East and North/West division and keep both Oklahoma and Texas in different divisions for possible rematch of the football championship game and keep the Red River football rivalry game as a permanent cross over game.

If the Big 12 someday decides to create a network it would most likely follow the Pac 12 model and have regional channels (Arizona, California, Oregon, Washington, Utah, Colorado). In this case, Texas LHN and BYU networks would work best in this model. Likewise Marshall added with WVU would make for a good local Tier 3 network in the Mid Atlantic region of the US. Currently Tier 3 would benefit WVU as well by having a local rival school for varsity sports such as baseball and soccer that are the most likely sports matchups to reach Individual tier 3 school networks.

Other observation, many still believe the Pac 12 will expand with Big 12 schools and quite frankly that ship has long sailed. Basically Texas the richest school in the country would need to want to join the Pac 12. With Big 12 stable in GOR and Texas basically controlling a lot of this conference, why would the University of Texas ever need the Pac 12 or for that matter the Big Ten? I recently made a road trip across Texas and the state of Texas is truly another country. It would take every state currently in the Big Ten just to make up the size and resources of this vast state. Let me make this clear, Texas does not need anybody. It’s the other way around where every wants a piece of Texas including the SEC by grabbing up Texas A&M. Since Texas was a primary supporter that pushed for WVU over Louisville, maybe Texas will have no problem including a natural rivalry for WVU. With TCU and Baylor already in the league, can’t see why another religious based school could be added into the mix with the inclusion of BYU.

South/East

Texas
Texas Tech
Baylor
TCU
WVU
Marshall

North/West

Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
Kansas
Kansas State
Iowa State
BYU


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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 8:42 pm 
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Oh, I believe it that the PAC absorption of B12 schools will become difficult. Colorado will likely become an instant "no" vote, and I imagine Utah and the 'Zona's won't let it happen if it means cutting access to the coast. I could see some of the CA schools becoming a stinker on some of them, too.

The only school at this point who would probably get in would be Kansas. That's what happens when you don't keep "blood money" when your former rivals bolt. It's good logic for whatever happens in the future.


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 2:35 am 
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lash wrote:
Hey it been a while since I last posted on this board.

An observation on this board has many not understanding what a travel partner benefit is for as school or a conference. A travel partner is not necessarily intended to benefit the partner school and more benefits for the other schools. For example the Pac 12 schools benefit far more by have both Arizona schools in the conference because a Washington State school can travel to both Arizona schools in Thursday and Saturday with one trip. Ditto an Arizona school traveling to Washington state and playing two schools in the same trip. The benefit for having both Arizona schools in the Pac 12 is for regional rivalry games between both of those Arizona schools.

If the Big 12 someday decides to expand to 12 schools there must be benefit to all 10 of the current schools for those two additional schools.

This is going to make some West Virginia fans go ballistic, however, I think Marshall could be a very good benefit to the Big 12. A Texas school could travel into West Virginia and play two schools in one trip. West Virginia could then have a true regional games with a built in natural rivalry.

Since the Big 12 Tier 3 is setup as a different model compared to the Big 10 and soon to be SEC networks and TV markets are not necessarily as important as a good regional rival games, Marshall makes better sense to me compared to a school such as Cincinnati if the Big 12 wants to help West Virginia with travel issues and provided some benefit to other 9 schools as well. The WVU/Marshall football game televised in the Phoenix market last year on Big 12 Fox drew fairly good TV ratings for a far off regional game.

Now that the ACC is fairly stable with a GOR signed from potential Big Ten poaching and Florida State and Clemson are not a possibility (both schools were most likely SEC bound in the first place if the ACC imploded by Big Ten advancements), the best option by far for the Big 12 to me is BYU. I know there is the Sunday issue with BYU not wanting to play games, however, this could be worked out in schedules for basketball and other varsity sports and really does not impact football which is the primary revenue sport. Do we really need to see BYU basketball games on Sunday?

So if the Big 12 wants 12 schools for a football championship game and really wants to keep up with the might of SEC football, two football orientated schools would be very important. Marshall has been very good in the past in football and both Marshall and BYU have each won national championships in football with Marshall winning the old FCS and BYU winning the old prior BCS title.

The Big 12 could then split into a South/East and North/West division and keep both Oklahoma and Texas in different divisions for possible rematch of the football championship game and keep the Red River football rivalry game as a permanent cross over game.

If the Big 12 someday decides to create a network it would most likely follow the Pac 12 model and have regional channels (Arizona, California, Oregon, Washington, Utah, Colorado). In this case, Texas LHN and BYU networks would work best in this model. Likewise Marshall added with WVU would make for a good local Tier 3 network in the Mid Atlantic region of the US. Currently Tier 3 would benefit WVU as well by having a local rival school for varsity sports such as baseball and soccer that are the most likely sports matchups to reach Individual tier 3 school networks.

Other observation, many still believe the Pac 12 will expand with Big 12 schools and quite frankly that ship has long sailed. Basically Texas the richest school in the country would need to want to join the Pac 12. With Big 12 stable in GOR and Texas basically controlling a lot of this conference, why would the University of Texas ever need the Pac 12 or for that matter the Big Ten? I recently made a road trip across Texas and the state of Texas is truly another country. It would take every state currently in the Big Ten just to make up the size and resources of this vast state. Let me make this clear, Texas does not need anybody. It’s the other way around where every wants a piece of Texas including the SEC by grabbing up Texas A&M. Since Texas was a primary supporter that pushed for WVU over Louisville, maybe Texas will have no problem including a natural rivalry for WVU. With TCU and Baylor already in the league, can’t see why another religious based school could be added into the mix with the inclusion of BYU.

South/East

Texas
Texas Tech
Baylor
TCU
WVU
Marshall

North/West

Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
Kansas
Kansas State
Iowa State
BYU


Being that there is only 150 miles between Cincinnati and Marshall, that Cincinnati is in a better conference and has been even on the radar for the ACC, that Marshall was not even considered for American expansion, that Cincinnati has a stronger program, better TV numbers, attendance, etc...I'm thinking Cincinnati would be clearly a real option for the Big 12 while Marshall would not be considered.

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 8:33 am 
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If the Big XII was intent on expanding to 12, they really missed the boat by being late on pulling the trigger and grabbing louisville before the ACC did.

Of the various schools out there, adding Louisville & Cincy would have been 2 decent programs and it would have solved WVU's isolation.
The Problem ??? - that would have led to the obvious divisional breakdown of having the 2 OK teams with the 4 Texas teams in the South,
which OU and UT disdained in the previous 12-team Big XII.

I could actually see adding UCF / USF to the South.
Neither has a long storied history, but those two schools are rapidly growing programs in rich football-recruiting areas, and that I-4 corridor has a ton of TV sets.
That would get them to 12, and probably make UT and OU happy, but WVU would continue to be isolated.

I don't see any great options for the Big XII. However, expanding to allow a CCG could be a dumb thing, as the Big XII found out so many times before.
It generates a few more $$ million, but on so many previous occasions, they were all set to send a team to the NCG (ranked #1 or #2) and the CCG came along
and their top-seeded team got upset and kicked out of the Top 2 and the NCG. The Big XII will make a LOT MORE money if they get on team into the Semi-finals (Top 4),
and also get their annual big pay-out from the Sugar Bowl.

So I'm really not sure the Big XII has much impetus to do anything right now, but stay at 10 and play a FB round-robin...


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 8:49 am 
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tute79 wrote:
If the Big XII was intent on expanding to 12, they really missed the boat by being late on pulling the trigger and grabbing louisville before the ACC did.

Of the various schools out there, adding Louisville & Cincy would have been 2 decent programs and it would have solved WVU's isolation.
The Problem ??? - that would have led to the obvious divisional breakdown of having the 2 OK teams with the 4 Texas teams in the South,
which OU and UT disdained in the previous 12-team Big XII.

I could actually see adding UCF / USF to the South.
Neither has a long storied history, but those two schools are rapidly growing programs in rich football-recruiting areas, and that I-4 corridor has a ton of TV sets.
That would get them to 12, and probably make UT and OU happy, but WVU would continue to be isolated.

I don't see any great options for the Big XII. However, expanding to allow a CCG could be a dumb thing, as the Big XII found out so many times before.
It generates a few more $$ million, but on so many previous occasions, they were all set to send a team to the NCG (ranked #1 or #2) and the CCG came along
and their top-seeded team got upset and kicked out of the Top 2 and the NCG. The Big XII will make a LOT MORE money if they get on team into the Semi-finals (Top 4),
and also get their annual big pay-out from the Sugar Bowl.

So I'm really not sure the Big XII has much impetus to do anything right now, but stay at 10 and play a FB round-robin...



Indeed. The Big 12 missed out when they weren't able to be aggressive in getting any ACC schools in the wake of the Maryland departure. Since then, as you mentioned, Louisville joined the ACC and the ACC GOR plans have made poaching ACC schools a bit tough. So that leaves only AAC schools as an option...less than ideal.

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 10:02 am 
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Anyone who whose GoR agreement expires first--the Big 12 or the ACC? I think that whenever Texas/Oklahoma come back on the open market we're going to see another round of realignment. If the ACC is still locked in a GoR it could play a major role in the course of that realignment.


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