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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:52 pm 
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sec03 wrote:
hendu1976fl wrote:
On a side note, I love coming to this forum. Though I may not always agree with what some of you say, the posters on this website are really insightful. sec 03, bishon cutter, tkalmsu, fighting muskie and some of the other posters on here, its like reading The Republic, only for college football junkies. Especially when you compare it to other websites. I'm not trying to brown nose or anything, but it is refreshing to come here and read what you guys think.


hendu1976fl, your cordial comments are appreciated. Welcome, and thanks for your questions and thoughts. You know, there can be snippet moments with those longhorn, nittany lion (& me not all disconnected from), and Muskingum fans ;) .


I'll let you all in on a little secret--I'm an Ohio State and Pitt Panthers fan. I use my DIII alma mater's mascot as a screen name because I know their is a stigma out there about Ohio St fans being arrogant and obnoxious and I didn't want to automatically get that label when I joined the site.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:20 pm 
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tkalmus wrote:
The RRR will not move because Texas and OU sell those tickets as a separate event every year (not included in the season ticket price) and require more donation from their fans (like me) in order to get them. Forbes said a few years ago that the RRR was the most profitable annually scheduled game in college football because of the money it pays out to both of these schools. So while it may not be considered the #1 rivalry nationaly, it is #1 in profitability which greedy Texas won't let go without a fight. ;)

I could see a scernario where OU leaves Texas but its highly unlikely as they can't leave OSU behind none of the Big 3 wants them with their tag-a-long (can't qualify academically for B1G, not good enough for SEC, and PAC12 flat out said no). But the game will always stay during fair weekend, that's a major part of the tradition.


I think no other conference would make an issue out of it other than the Big Ten. It's probably why they don't already have certain programs in the conference. They're bullies.

Sec--I agree. The loss of big schools off that schedule will take its toll. Part of the reason I'm so confident further Big XII expansion will pick another Texas school is the impact on attendance between the schools in TX and OK. Texas-UTEP in '09 was SRO. And that wasn't a good Miner team.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:16 pm 
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The Bishin Cutter wrote:
tkalmus wrote:
The RRR will not move because Texas and OU sell those tickets as a separate event every year (not included in the season ticket price) and require more donation from their fans (like me) in order to get them. Forbes said a few years ago that the RRR was the most profitable annually scheduled game in college football because of the money it pays out to both of these schools. So while it may not be considered the #1 rivalry nationaly, it is #1 in profitability which greedy Texas won't let go without a fight. ;)

I could see a scernario where OU leaves Texas but its highly unlikely as they can't leave OSU behind none of the Big 3 wants them with their tag-a-long (can't qualify academically for B1G, not good enough for SEC, and PAC12 flat out said no). But the game will always stay during fair weekend, that's a major part of the tradition.


I think no other conference would make an issue out of it other than the Big Ten. It's probably why they don't already have certain programs in the conference. They're bullies.

Sec--I agree. The loss of big schools off that schedule will take its toll. Part of the reason I'm so confident further Big XII expansion will pick another Texas school is the impact on attendance between the schools in TX and OK. Texas-UTEP in '09 was SRO. And that wasn't a good Miner team.


I'm a UTEP fan to (see below) but let's not overstate that...the game sold out because it was Texas coming to town and all their fans in El Paso/Far West TX were able to see a live game for cheap and close to home, its the same reason when Texas plays at Rice they play at Reliant because Texas fans in Houston would sell out Rice's stadium in a heartbeat. Once a Texas schools gets added it will lose its charm quickly. Baylor tarps the dang stadium and still can't get enough Bear or Horn fans to fill it. TCU will sell out this year but most likely in 5 years we'll see the same drop once everything normalizes like it did when the SWC was around (unless of course both are highly/ranked).

UT sold out their game against WVU, but I bet after a few trips once the mystic wear off they won't sell out those unless WVU is good/ranked.

I'm not sure another Texas school will join the Big 12 until another one leaves, the only possibility is Houston and that only becausethey just got Tier 1 status so maybe if they set the world on fire in the American, but SMU is still blackballed by Texas plus w/ TCU now and the RRR plus Bay/Tech game nobody needs more face time in Dallas.

And as far as the rest go; Rice is still really bad in both major sports, UTEP/UTSA could work if the conference gets decimated, but UNT/TSU have virtually no shot.

I personally would like to see Rice and Tulane join the conference (I've said it on here multiple times) Rice gives UT trip to Houston (great for both recruiting and fans) and has great baseball while Tulane would be an awesome weekend every other year to NOLA and both are AAU.

That would split up UT/OU like everyone else seems to want to do and raise the conference's academic standing while expanding/solidifying to two major markets.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:42 am 
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fighting muskie wrote:
sec03 wrote:
hendu1976fl wrote:
On a side note, I love coming to this forum. Though I may not always agree with what some of you say, the posters on this website are really insightful. sec 03, bishon cutter, tkalmsu, fighting muskie and some of the other posters on here, its like reading The Republic, only for college football junkies. Especially when you compare it to other websites. I'm not trying to brown nose or anything, but it is refreshing to come here and read what you guys think.


hendu1976fl, your cordial comments are appreciated. Welcome, and thanks for your questions and thoughts. You know, there can be snippet moments with those longhorn, nittany lion (& me not all disconnected from), and Muskingum fans ;) .


I'll let you all in on a little secret--I'm an Ohio State and Pitt Panthers fan. I use my DIII alma mater's mascot as a screen name because I know their is a stigma out there about Ohio St fans being arrogant and obnoxious and I didn't want to automatically get that label when I joined the site.


Muskie, I know what you mean about the bias towards tOSU. I teach in Florida and I have had a ton of kids from Ohio in the last 10 years. So much that I wonder if anybody still lives in Ohio LOL! But I don't hate on Ohio State. They are a great program that has had tremendous success during my lifetime. Some fans of tOSU are a little over zealous, but I think you could say that for most programs. I only judge by what one has to say. You seem pretty middle of the road by my standards.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:02 am 
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tkalmus wrote:
The Bishin Cutter wrote:
hendu1976fl wrote:
Does anybody think it is possible for Texas and OU to go the separate ways in conference realignment? Hypothetically speaking, could OU and maybe OSU end up going to the SEC and Texas and Texas Tech end up in the PAC 12? (all of this is in the event the GOR is dissolved).
I just can't see OU in the Pac 12. Financially, IMO, it would be better for OU to be in the SEC than the Pac 12. I also think it would be better for student athletes flying back from the east coast than it would be flying back from the west coast.


Separate conference-wise? Sure...they were separated for years. It's only the RRR that keeps them together. That's what can't be sacrificed.

Granted, I never thought the Longhorns would let TAMU walk the way they did without keeping that game, so I do wonder if there could be a layoff in the RRR should that split ever occur. I think it would be very likely to be placed on pause were any of them to go to the Big Ten. The B1G conference schedule pretty much rules out RRR where it currently sits on the calendar.

Thanks for the good thoughts, too! This board is great. I appear and lurk on several, but this is by far my favorite.


The RRR will not move because Texas and OU sell those tickets as a separate event every year (not included in the season ticket price) and require more donation from their fans (like me) in order to get them. Forbes said a few years ago that the RRR was the most profitable annually scheduled game in college football because of the money it pays out to both of these schools. So while it may not be considered the #1 rivalry nationaly, it is #1 in profitability which greedy Texas won't let go without a fight. ;)

I could see a scernario where OU leaves Texas but its highly unlikely as they can't leave OSU behind none of the Big 3 wants them with their tag-a-long (can't qualify academically for B1G, not good enough for SEC, and PAC12 flat out said no). But the game will always stay during fair weekend, that's a major part of the tradition.


I don't think it is likely, but what if the SEC agreed to take Okie light in order to get OU. Would OU be more willing to go to the SEC or the Pac 12; given that the Pac 12 would also accept OSU? I am wondering if the final plan for the SEC might look something like a 20 school league with OU, OSU, Kansas, UNC, Duke, and Va Tech. Adding OU, OSU, and VA Tech would be good for football. UNC, Duke, Kansas, Kentucky and Florida would be awesome for men's hoops. In most years. at least one of those teams would make the final 4.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:52 am 
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The SEC with duke and Kansas and oklahoma st?
No


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:09 am 
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Here is your Big XII GoR!

Commence speculation! :twisted:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:19 am 
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The Bishin Cutter wrote:
Here is your Big XII GoR!

Commence speculation! :twisted:

Quote:
WHEREAS, contemporaneous with the execution of this Agreement, the Conference is entering into: (i) that certain Amended and Restated Agreement with American Broadcasting Companies, Inc., ESPN, Inc., and ESPN Enterprises, Inc. (collectively, “ESPN/ABC”) effective as of July 1, 2012 (the “ESPN/ABC Agreement”); and (ii) that certain Amended and Restated Telecast Rights Agreement with FOX Cable Networks, Inc. and FOX Broadcasting Company (collectively, “FOX”) effective as of July 1, 2012 (the “FOX Agreement” and together with the ESPN/ABC Agreement, the “Telecast Rights Agreements”)

Sounds like they had to sign a GOR for the TV contracts but I do not see any additional evidence that the GOR its tied to these contracts as this is not an agreement with ESPN/FOX, so the only legal action against a school like OU/UT/KU would be by the conference.

And as I explained before, unless there is a clause in the TV contract that states that the remaining conference schools would lose money if a school leaves (i.e. if they take out more than 1/10th of the payout per defection) then its unlikely that the left behind would lose any money and when OU/UT/KU leave and broadcasts thier TV rights through the B1G/P12/SEC's TV partners then the conference would sue but it would most likely have nothing to sue for as ther would be no damanges per viotlating the GOR (they can't sue for lost ticket revenue, loss of respect/quality of competetiion/parity in conjuction with the GOR contract). The only thing I can think of is if they fall below 6 members then the conference either ceases to be recognized as such and would therefor have to expand, and assuming the network are taking away 1/2 of the payout and not paying more for each new member, then their TV shares would have to come out of each of the remaining school's cut, but that's a huge strech and only applies to if 5 schools left and would be hard to argue in court and I don't see anything in the contract that states that the conference has to be a recognized FBS or NCAA D1bb conference so that point may be moot.
Quote:
4. Retained Rights.... The Conference shall not, however, take any action that, directly or indirectly, limits reduces or otherwise impairs a Member Institution’s Retained Rights or Permitted Member Institution Outlet(s) without the prior written consent of all Member Institutions that are then members of the Conference.

I call this the LHN clause...can't kill it w/o every member's agreement.

Quote:
7. Term... At the end of the Term or upon other termination of this Agreement, the Rights granted by a Member Institution to the Conference hereunder shall automatically revert to such Member Institution.

So it can be terminated...likely if the conference is which we would need to see the bilaws to find out what that entails.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:59 am 
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Big 12 bylaws


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:22 pm 
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With those bylaws, will this prevent the conference of doing some future expansion?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:08 pm 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
With those bylaws, will this prevent the conference of doing some future expansion?


No, they are only slightly modified from the bylaws in effect before losing NU and CU. Any new schools will have to agree to the bylaws, GoR, and the conference rules and a couple of other items.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:44 pm 
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tkalmus wrote:
Quote:
7. Term... At the end of the Term or upon other termination of this Agreement, the Rights granted by a Member Institution to the Conference hereunder shall automatically revert to such Member Institution.

So it can be terminated...likely if the conference is which we would need to see the bilaws to find out what that entails.


lew240z wrote:


Quote:
1.5.2 Actions Requiring the Vote of a Majority of Disinterested Directors and a Supermajority of Disinterested Directors...(b) The following actions may be taken only if approved by the affirmative vote of a Supermajority of Disinterested Directors (as defined below):...(2) The dissolution, liquidation, winding-up, merger, sale, or transfer of all or substantially all of the assets of the Conference;....(f) The term “Supermajority of Disinterested Directors” with respect to any issue shall mean seventy-five percent (75%) or more of all persons who are Disinterested Directors with respect to such issue, whether or not each is Present at a meeting considering such issue or signs a written consent with respect to such issue.

So they need 75% to dissolve it seems, meaning 8 out of 10
So something like UT/Tech/OU/OSU/KU/KSU to PAC12, WVU to ACC, and 1 more...
Iowa St to Big Ten? Baylor or TCU to SEC? Seems unlikely...

I also found this gem...
Quote:
SECTION 3
WITHDRAWAL AND SANCTIONS
3.1 Withdrawal.
The Grant of Rights Agreement which will remain in full force and effect as to such Withdrawing Member and the Withdrawing Member shall continue to be fully bound under the Grant of Rights Agreement after Withdrawal for the remainder of the term of any Grant of Rights Agreement as if it remained a Member of the Conference, but the Withdrawing Member shall not be entitled to payment of any amounts or any other benefits arising under the Grant of Rights Agreement after Withdrawal.
Whoa...I'm not an expert on contract law but that looks like they may have overstepped with this clause.

Quote:
3.4 Buyout Amount.
if (A) by legal action or otherwise, a Withdrawing Member, or any other person or entity, attempts to challenge or oppose or interfere with, or challenges or opposes or interferes with...(ii) the enforcement by the Conference of its rights under the Grant of Rights Agreement...(iii) the right of the Conference’s telecast partners to televise games of the Withdrawing Member under the terms of the Grant of Rights Agreement...or (B) for any other reason the Conference’s telecast partners are unable to produce and telecast games of the Withdrawing Member during the then-remaining term of the Grant of Rights...then the Members agree that such actions, in breach of the Withdrawing Member’s agreements in these Bylaws, cause additional damage to the Conference and therefore that the Buyout Amount shall be increased by, and shall also include, and the Withdrawing Member shall be obligated to pay to the Conference immediately upon the occurrence of any of the foregoing events, the amount of all actual loss, damage, costs, or expenses whatsoever (including but not limited to lost revenues, damage to reputation and public image, and damage to relationships with related parties) incurred by the Conference or any of its remaining Members directly or indirectly related to that challenge or opposition, whether economic or otherwise.

So you can withdrawal, pay the "buyout amount" and leave your TV rights but if you challenge it in court/or in practice we can sue you for lost revenues (can't sue if nothing actually lost), damage to reputation, and public image (these won't hold up in court because they made them one-sided conditional and never held the right to sue for these assuming everything went their way), and damage to relationships (this is the only thing that could hold up assuming TV money stays the same payout per school).

One things for sure, if someone was motivated enough and had the money to fight this (Big Ten) they could be successful in mitigating these damanges to nothing more than exit fee (2 years of TV payout so 46mil), and a possible punitive damage awarded for damaged relationships with ESPN/FOX.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:04 pm 
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Also while I think this goes w/o saying, but no matter what this will be a big ordeal...there's no way the Big Ten would instigate or support a school challenging this that's not a Nebraska/Penn St like gamechanger like OU or Texas. Just getting KU would not be worth it the hassel.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:28 am 
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lew240z wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
With those bylaws, will this prevent the conference of doing some future expansion?


No, they are only slightly modified from the bylaws in effect before losing NU and CU. Any new schools will have to agree to the bylaws, GoR, and the conference rules and a couple of other items.


Oh, ok. Just wondering. But I still believe that the Big XII can still revert back to 12 teams in the future.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:38 am 
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I think expansion in that conference creates a bit of a procedural issue:

1) conference agrees to invite schools
2) newly invited schools agree to terms of Big XII bylaws and GoR
3) television partners renegotiate television deal
4) GoR restructured as seen fit via agreement

The issue revolves around #4, because that restructuring may entail lengthening the terms of GoR, not lengthening, or just scrapping it in general. Plus, according to the bylaws, something like expansion requires 8 schools (the super-majority) to agree upon.

The schools have a lot of choices, but it takes an overwhelming majority of them to enact anything.


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