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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:33 pm 
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There is a difference.
bb gives placement to all conference champs who meet requirements.
fb playoffs are all committee selection.
Who on the committee were corrupt?
Did Condi Rice hate Baylor?
Missed that one and others.
Any articles on that?
Did not see anything written they were corrupted.
Who were better to serve instead?
Nuns?
Most sport writers commended their work.
What's an opinion as to fair inclusion and corruption are 2 different questions.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:40 pm 
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No real issue with the 13 people selected.

One person (total of 5) intimately connected to a school in each of the Power 5 conferences.

Condi Rice (Stanford ?) and Pat Haden (USC) might make it 2 for the PAC.

I believe Oliver Luck (WVU) was the Big XII rep, who took the #2 job in the NCAA - he will be replaced by a new "Big XII rep.".

I feel that an 8 team tourney would be better.
My reasoning - this year we had 6 teams that each had a legitimate claim to #1. (two never got to make their case ON THE FIELD).
I don't think that would happen with an 8 team bracket.
The committee might have to make hard choices about who is in #7 and #8, and who is out #9 and #10,
BUT those teams left out (#9 and below) probably has a distinctly inferior season to #1, #2, #3,
and not a very strong argument as to being the National Champion. Teams #9 and below likely did NOT win their confernece championship.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:36 pm 
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I will preface my comments by stating that I have been a U of Cincinnati advocate for many years. As I read articles regarding where UC could land regarding realignment, I can only hope. Regarding the question as to where they may end up, here is some food for thought. 2nd largest University in Ohio. Leadership in place that is moving the institution forward academically, athletically, and great infrastructure. UC can be a viable candidate for inclusion into any major conference. Do some research on UC and form your opinion. Comments are welcome.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:51 pm 
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Mesa Lejos wrote:
There is a difference.
bb gives placement to all conference champs who meet requirements.


You can still be an at-large with a top seed in basketball, though. AQ gives you a ticket, it doesn't give you your seeding. That's what people critical of this new playoff will be watching for: non-champs breaking into the field. How likely will it be, or should it be?

That's the big problem I have with the football side of the playoff bracket. Size is irrelevant. It's recency that makes it suck. In basketball, some schools stamp their tickets earlier than others, and don't have to worry much at all whether they win their conference or its tournament. Others have only their tournament. What fills in between the two extremities is good scheduling, consistent performance, and strong overall conference play by all. To me, one can make Ohio State's case very easy when comparing their schedule to TCU's and Baylor's. Can you make it as easily for the Big Ten over the Big XII? Or either of those to additional PAC and SEC schools?

What determines worth now? If it's still recency or some other subjective metric, we'll see this becoming another failure of a system. If conferences have no faith in it, or even just certain ones, how will that resonate on expansion or realignment? Beyond thinking some in the Big XII want additional members for thirteen games and other considerations, would it be better served for some in the Big XII to say no to everything because they'd like their options and accessibility better in another home than extend the life of what could be sheer misery?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:29 am 
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http://www.chron.com/local/education/ca ... 089909.php

Yes, that'll work! Threats are always the best option!

In all honesty, if the conferences were to separate maybe 80 programs (5 conferences of 16, 4 conferences of 20, 10 conferences of 8, 80 conferences of 1, or whatever floats your boat) from the rest of the FBS schools, Houston would be in that mix of the power conferences along with Notre Dame, BYU, Cincinnati, UCF, USF, Connecticut, Memphis, Tulane, Boise St, San Diego St, Nevada, Colorado St, East Carolina, New Mexico, Northern Illinois, and Tulsa --- or whatever combination you may prefer.

Threatening your way into a conference run by Texas - a school Houston already has a less-than-stellar reputation with - is a terrible idea. Do I think Houston should be in a power conference? Yes and if expansion continues, I think they may. However, this is not the way to do it.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:29 pm 
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BePcr07 wrote:
http://www.chron.com/local/education/campus-chronicles/article/UH-should-be-in-Big-12-board-chair-says-6089909.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, that'll work! Threats are always the best option!

In all honesty, if the conferences were to separate maybe 80 programs (5 conferences of 16, 4 conferences of 20, 10 conferences of 8, 80 conferences of 1, or whatever floats your boat) from the rest of the FBS schools, Houston would be in that mix of the power conferences along with Notre Dame, BYU, Cincinnati, UCF, USF, Connecticut, Memphis, Tulane, Boise St, San Diego St, Nevada, Colorado St, East Carolina, New Mexico, Northern Illinois, and Tulsa --- or whatever combination you may prefer.

Threatening your way into a conference run by Texas - a school Houston already has a less-than-stellar reputation with - is a terrible idea. Do I think Houston should be in a power conference? Yes and if expansion continues, I think they may. However, this is not the way to do it.

Thanks for posting this article. When I first read this article a couple days back, my first reaction was so what! After some more thoughts, does the University of Houston know something we don't. Yea the Big 12 has placed numerous articles out there for indication of having no interest in expanding back to 12. There has to be guys in Houston that have close connections with other Big 12 folks that may have a better idea of the interest the Big 12 truly has with expanding. This could be causing some big unrest at the U of Houston if the Big 12 is actually discussing expansion behind close doors.

I for one do not believe the University of Texas runs the Big 12 or has any more pull that any of the other 10 school. I think Texas rolls with a different attitude and has it own network and will not drop the network or share the network just because other leagues that have networks all share a social type status with all schools. This does mean that Texas runs the league and more to do with the independence that Texas can have because of the sheer wealth and size of the state it represents.

Back to the article. When there are schools squirming and shuffling in a region there is usually something going on behind the scenes.

Maybe there is just discussions of what ifs about expansion. Regardless, if the Big 12 were to expand back to 12, do not believe the University of Texas will be the reason the U of Houston is not included. Why would any of the 10 schools want another Texas school in the league? Having four Texas schools is more than enough.

If the Big 12 did put expansion back on the front burner, my thoughts go back to taking Cincinnati and BYU as the best options.

North: Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, Cincinnati, WVU, BYU

South: Texas and Oklahoma schools (no room or need for University of Houston)


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:26 pm 
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lash wrote:
BePcr07 wrote:
http://www.chron.com/local/education/campus-chronicles/article/UH-should-be-in-Big-12-board-chair-says-6089909.php
Threatening your way into a conference run by Texas - a school Houston already has a less-than-stellar reputation with - is a terrible idea. Do I think Houston should be in a power conference? Yes and if expansion continues, I think they may. However, this is not the way to do it.

Maybe there is just discussions of what ifs about expansion. Regardless, if the Big 12 were to expand back to 12, do not believe the University of Texas will be the reason the U of Houston is not included. Why would any of the 10 schools want another Texas school in the league? Having four Texas schools is more than enough.

BePcr07, thanks for sharing.
The University of Texas and Texas Tech are the only state schools from Texas residing in the B12. They have their own legislative influence, not the least which include members who are alumni of UT Law School. This is not particularly similar to the Ann Richards-Baylor situation engaging the old Big 8. Agree Lash, why would the Big 12, maybe particularly those outside of Texas, want another addition from Texas when four are there already? This reminds me somewhat of some members of the Illinois legislature last year advocating that another Illinois state university be admitted to the B1G.

Back in the old Southwest Conference days, Houston was a later addition to the established SWC contingent. Then, Houston was doing particularly well in fb and bb and exploited well the recruiting rules of the time. Part of the reason the SWC absorbed them then, was to bring the school and program under their control.

When the SWC broke-up, Houston, Rice, TCU, and SMU got left behind in finding a power-type conference situation. TCU worked/hopped their way back to a power conference. Houston and SMU eventually made it to the now AAC, and edged outside the P5 and much less revenue available compared to P5 conferences. Rice hangs in CUSA.

There were schools, Nebraska in particular, from the old Big8, that just never found a comfort level with the merger with the Texas-4. I wonder what the conference would look like today if just UT, TTU, and Texas A&M were the only ones added, and BYU was the fourth. That was proposed at the time. Even then, however, Texas A&M liked the idea of being in the SEC instead. Maybe Texas and TTU should have just gone then to the Big 8 (thus ten total), and the Big8 plus 2 could have held at that or later expanded with two more from other states. Texas A&M, at that time, could have gone to the SEC as they preferred. Thus, with Baylor, SMU, TCU, Houston, Rice, the SWC could have added others, such as Tulane, UTEP, and Tulsa, to work back to 10, or maybe even twelve. The SWC, if it survived, would not have been the same level of prestige, but similar type schools would still be together, and offered some of them better stability.

I was just speculating about "what ifs", but what happened back then left measures of resentment and dissatisfaction. And seriously, SWC programs at the time, such as Texas and Texas A&M, needed to separate from much of the SWC. How it all unfolded was really the concern.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:44 pm 
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Houston trying to use political pressure to gain B12 acceptance?
Doubt that will work unless the majoity of B12 want them anyway.


Last edited by Mesa Lejos on Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:54 pm 
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What's so pitiful about this is that it isn't even political pressure. Fertitta didn't do this in front of legislators: local, county, state, or federal. It was done in front of writers for a city newspaper.

Houston's a mixed bag for me. The school is the kind of the future: it's commuter, non-traditional, urban, and comprehensive. And it's big. It's had its comprehensive athletics together better and sooner than schools like Temple, Cincinnati, Memphis, and I'll say it...Louisville. They just made the wrong enemies, and they reside in a city with an Ivy-lite school that could probably make a phone call and find a new and better life in an instant if they wanted.

Houston should have been following TCU around all those years, but UH saw itself as more eastern, which it sort of is, and pegged itself to those other metro schools rather than the "small big statey" of the west, WAC/MWC. TCU got to the Big East first anyway...and by the time Houston touched down there, it got a name change, lost AQ, lost a flagship, and picked up enough of its neighbors that the exclusivity all but wore off.

Rice muttered something about exploring its options, SMU was forced to take on the subject because of its whiny alumni, and how Houston is just blowing smoke. Funny enough, when SMU and Houston joined the Big East/AAC, all of the stuff keeping the conference at the major's table was still technically there.

I would have had respect for the guy if he called out the political shenanigans that got Baylor and Tech to the table, or just calling out the pull of Austin, especially how a small private school from Ft. Worth could land there but UH couldn't. Nobody got a Houston school, Rice or Houston, into the conference, so I don't know what playing to B12 presidents will do...can't seem to motivate eastern Texas politicians into raising some stink? And maybe Fertitta should have learned something from Missouri when it comes to publicly self-congratulating your school as being an equal with those who don't consider you one; at least Missouri had some worker bees in the SEC fields. What you got, Houston?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:03 pm 
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If the Big 12 did put expansion back on the front burner, my thoughts go back to taking Cincinnati and BYU as the best options.

North: Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, Cincinnati, WVU, BYU

South: Texas, Texas Tech, TCU, Baylor, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State

Latter when the contract is un for renewal in 2024, the Big 12 could explore the benefits of having two eight team divisions and create a conference network to support the additional overhead.

Once BYU and Cincinnati settle in, the conference could add Boise State, Colorado State to the north and UCF and USF to the south division.

North: Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, Cincinnati, WVU, BYU, Boise State(?), Colorado State(?)

South: Texas, Texas Tech, TCU, Baylor, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, South Florida(?), Central Florida(?)

This 16 team league if the TV revenue can be supportive of having 16 members, would command most of the four corners of the USA. You would get the USA Northwest ,USA Mountain, Midwest Pains, Texas, Eastern exposure, and Florida.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:27 pm 
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I love the city of Houston. Lived there during the 80's. It's a really great city with great people.

But, the University of Houston...isn't the type of institution that should be allowed in the Big 12.

UofH, has had twenty years to make something of itself. And what have they done? Well, they just took care of the fb stadium(last year)....and their bb arena is going on now, I believe. Seriously....they just now did it. Both needed upgrades twenty years ago.

And, their fb stadium is not very cool. I know...it's better than Robertson, was by a large degree...but still....compared to Baylor's new stadium....it's a piece of garbage. And the attendance showed the difference. Baylor sold out before the season started.

Anyway....they spent twenty years doing nothing...and they think they deserve a shot at something sweet. Not because they earned it through competition...but, because they 'wanty'. And where is this remarkable athletic program that Tillman talked about??

It gets tiring to hear UofH complain...how they never get a break. Well, you create your breaks...they don't just fall out of the sky and land on you.

With Rice a few miles away....UofH will never be the prettiest girl at the dance. Sorry UofH....even legislators can't fix that.

On the positive side....I really like Cincy for one spot. Those guys have been competitive for quite a while. Good call with Cincy.

BYU....man, I hardly ever hear someone who supports a Big 12 school mention BYU. I like playing them a few times every ten years or so....but, to have them in the conference.....I am pretty, meh.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:54 pm 
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The last I heard of any possible rumblings of expansion is that if the Big 12 did expand, they would go east. I would imagine that Cincy would be a lock for one of those spots. The other spot would probably be between UConn, ECU, Memphis, Tulane, UCF, and USF (That's assuming they can't poach somebody or somebodies from a P5 conference). How will these schools be judged should the Big 12 expand: from the mind of a teenage boy.

Since none of the candidates, including Cincinnati, are all that attractive one of the first criteria should be the she's not that hot right now, but with the right clothes, some makeup, and a new do, she could be hot criteria. How good could these schools become in a P5 conference? What is the talent base like within two hours of their campus? Would it be a desirable location for recruits to attend?

What have you done for me lately criteria? How good have they been over the recent past, say the last 10 years? Winning seasons, conference championships, bowl games, winning bowl games, BCS games, winning BCS games.

What are my friends going to say if they find out I'm dating this girl criteria? Their most important friends, that is their TV partners, what are they going to think about the new additions? No school from the G5 is going to bring in an additional $40 million. Honestly, there are probably only about 10-15 teams in the entire country that could do that, and they already have steady boyfriends. Of your available options who would the TV partners think is the most attractive? That being said, I think the Florida, Ohio and North Carolina markets are a lot sexier to them than Louisiana, Tennessee, and Connecticut. Then there are your other friends, the selection committee. How are they going to react if you bring in two schools who are going to be bottom feeders for a very long time, if not maybe forever vs bringing in two schools who can come in and maybe finish somewhere in the middle of the pack (similar to what TCU and WVU did, one game out of 3rd place).

Oh yeah, other stuff is important too criteria. Academics, other sports, geography. But honestly, this is about football, so unless there is something glaringly wrong in this criteria, this group of criteria should probably remain as the other stuff is important too criteria= important, but not as important as other stuff.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:05 am 
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mozilla wrote:
Anyway....they spent twenty years doing nothing...and they think they deserve a shot at something sweet. Not because they earned it through competition...but, because they 'wanty'. And where is this remarkable athletic program that Tillman talked about??

It gets tiring to hear UofH complain...how they never get a break. Well, you create your breaks...they don't just fall out of the sky and land on you.

With Rice a few miles away....UofH will never be the prettiest girl at the dance. Sorry UofH....even legislators can't fix that.

On the positive side....I really like Cincy for one spot. Those guys have been competitive for quite a while. Good call with Cincy.

BYU....man, I hardly ever hear someone who supports a Big 12 school mention BYU. I like playing them a few times every ten years or so....but, to have them in the conference.....I am pretty, meh.


It's refreshing to hear someone defend merit. That Houston doesn't deserve this because they spent years on the sideline while others worked like crazy to build. I think UH did do some things...they and SMU worked the Big East. It just didn't turn out how they thought it would, and it was clear that TCU was a step or two ahead of them in the game. The conferences, the money, the stadium vision, emphasis on a powerful football program...TCU knew what it was doing.

Cincy's going to make any conference who takes a shot at them very happy to have them. They're not the biggest in terms of support, but the football and basketball consistency...they'll contribute to the overall pot. And I think the market/location is ridiculously lucrative. ACC, Big XII, or heck...SEC...you can do much worse than Cincinnati.

BYU...you're right. Even in those Boren FoIA emails, BYU isn't well endorsed. Someone mentions them in an email, but I think that was it? I suspect BYU has the wrong people who make these decisions. They expect to be called rather than making the calls themselves, and they expect their terms to be heavily considered. But...with what leverage, you know?

I think BYU and Cincy are the two next best programs the Big XII could add, but I don't know if one or both even get the call. You'll get lobbying by WVU to get them back into FL, I'm sure. You might see politics within the conference or state of TX push up another institution (Rice or Houston), and push into the Gulf (Tulane), or a move to refill the old footprint with CSU. I don't know. Should they expand, they'll have options...and if they finally choose to, it wouldn't surprise me who they chose. After Rutgers, nothing shocks me anymore, because athletic merit isn't what drives these things.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:12 pm 
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The Bishin Cutter wrote:
and I'll say it...Louisville.

And you said it somewhat misleading, Cutter. The University of Louisville's history can go back to Jefferson Seminary in 1798. In 1833 the Louisville Medical Institute was established. In 1840 Louisville College was named. UL has professional schools and long-established doctoral programs.
Of course residing in Kentucky's largest city there's going to be an ambundance of commuters. UL also has 11 on-campus residence halls, much of them high-rise units. There's also private off-campus residential facilities in addition to greek system housing.
Any public University in or near an urban area is going to have a considerable number of commuters. Same, in the context of commuter populations, could be said about UCLA, Temple, Ohio State, South Carolina, NC State, Maryland, etc.
Most of Louisville's athletic progams were created long before Houston got going with it. I am sure the ACC took a look at Louisville's institution-type and history prior to inviting them.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:31 pm 
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louisvillecard01 wrote:
The Bishin Cutter wrote:
and I'll say it...Louisville.

And you said it somewhat misleading, Cutter. The University of Louisville's history can go back to Jefferson Seminary in 1798. In 1833 the Louisville Medical Institute was established. In 1840 Louisville College was named. UL has professional schools and long-established doctoral programs.
Of course residing in Kentucky's largest city there's going to be an ambundance of commuters. UL also has 11 on-campus residence halls, much of them high-rise units. There's also private off-campus residential facilities in addition to greek system housing.
Any public University in or near an urban area is going to have a considerable number of commuters. Same, in the context of commuter populations, could be said about UCLA, Temple, Ohio State, South Carolina, NC State, Maryland, etc.
Most of Louisville's athletic progams were created long before Houston got going with it. I am sure the ACC took a look at Louisville's institution-type and history prior to inviting them.


Yeah, I meant it more for Houston's place among the majors as a member of the SWC. I would say UL's basketball was definitely already well ahead of UH, as the Metro > SWC, but I was thinking the football thing more than anything. UL may have the groundwork there, but not until the SWC disbanded and CUSA consolidated would I consider UL greater than or equal to UH in that "common era" or "pre-common era," and even there, UH wasn't well liked by its SWC conference-mates.

It's not a fair distinction, either, because these schools are all reactive to the fluid landscape of higher education, as as you noted with Louisville, what that school started as isn't what it was for a time, or what it is now. But for Houston, where it is now is exactly why schools like them (as well as Temple) shouldn't be discounted...assuming they can manage their programs and maintain their presence academically. You simply can't ignore these big schools and call them non-majors, while the "majors" comprise of tiny private schools and smallish public ones who are where they are because of being in the right place and the right time, in some cases, nearly or over a century ago.


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