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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:48 pm 
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Wow, lots of chatter on here this weekend. Thanks Lash for backing me up on Cincy for #11 and BYU for football only for #12 being the best move for the Big 12. I just see too many problems with all the other options out there.

ECU draws a good crowd but they don't do much for TV, their campus is hard to get to, and they are in a state that already has 4 Power 5 Programs (well 3, Wake Forest doesn't really count).

The Big 12 already owns Houston due to the presence of alums from the other Texas schools residing there.

Tulane brings a nice market but their football is historically had and they are a private school with a small alumni base in a strongly pro-LSU state.

Memphis brings good basketball and an ok market but they haven't had a lot of sustained success in football and their facilities are bad.

San Diego St, Boise St, and Colorado St all move the footprint westward which is contrary to the current goals.

I am kind of intrigued by UCF and USF. They are both in markets that are better than Cincy or Memphis. if you are going to consider them I think you have to take them both to ease the travel situation. You could potentially add them to my Expansion plan as full members and slide BYU over to the South. I don't think I would rush to grab them right away though--give it a few years and see how they are performing and see if those Florida TV dollars would justify a move to 14.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:41 pm 
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fighting muskie wrote:
Wow, lots of chatter on here this weekend. Thanks Lash for backing me up on Cincy for #11 and BYU for football only for #12 being the best move for the Big 12. I just see too many problems with all the other options out there.

ECU draws a good crowd but they don't do much for TV, their campus is hard to get to, and they are in a state that already has 4 Power 5 Programs (well 3, Wake Forest doesn't really count).

The Big 12 already owns Houston due to the presence of alums from the other Texas schools residing there.

Tulane brings a nice market but their football is historically had and they are a private school with a small alumni base in a strongly pro-LSU state.

Memphis brings good basketball and an ok market but they haven't had a lot of sustained success in football and their facilities are bad.

San Diego St, Boise St, and Colorado St all move the footprint westward which is contrary to the current goals.

I am kind of intrigued by UCF and USF. They are both in markets that are better than Cincy or Memphis. if you are going to consider them I think you have to take them both to ease the travel situation. You could potentially add them to my Expansion plan as full members and slide BYU over to the South. I don't think I would rush to grab them right away though--give it a few years and see how they are performing and see if those Florida TV dollars would justify a move to 14.

fighting muskie, your plan to take BYU as football only makes sense because the school is already considered a power school by the other five power leagues and the Olympic sports are already taken care of in the WCC.

I believe the Big 12 will hold out this year to see if the same situation occurs without the 13 game impacting the selection committe and then decide how to proceed with expansion or remain with 10.

The Big 12 has been very adamant about not really wanting to play a championship game with 10 schools which would result in a guarantee rematch every year.

There is one other option that would make sense and to take BYU as football only and revert back to playing an 8 game conference schedule similar to how the Big Ten scheduled with 11 schools.

Once the NCAA most likely drops the restriction latter this year on championship games, the Big 12 could play 8 game conference schedule with 11 schools and take the top two ranking schools to play in the championship or 13 game. It could have rematch as well, however, so could a 12 team league.

Basketball and Olympic spots are better with 10 schools and having associate members for women gymnastics, etc.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:03 pm 
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Roscoe1206 wrote:
Huan wrote:
Roscoe1206 wrote:
Huan wrote:
Everyone assumes WVU wants Cincinnati
I wonder if WVU would choose proximity over recruiting in Florida against UCF

UC and WVU have recruited against each other for years!



Doesn't mean WVU, being in a better conference, would want UC in the big xii as well

Define Better conference.


If you ask this about the big xii vs the AAC then we don't have sufficient common ground upon which to further discuss


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:54 pm 
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UCF and Houston.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:04 am 
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fighting muskie wrote:
Wow, lots of chatter on here this weekend. Thanks Lash for backing me up on Cincy for #11 and BYU for football only for #12 being the best move for the Big 12. I just see too many problems with all the other options out there.

ECU draws a good crowd but they don't do much for TV, their campus is hard to get to, and they are in a state that already has 4 Power 5 Programs (well 3, Wake Forest doesn't really count).

The Big 12 already owns Houston due to the presence of alums from the other Texas schools residing there.

Tulane brings a nice market but their football is historically had and they are a private school with a small alumni base in a strongly pro-LSU state.

Memphis brings good basketball and an ok market but they haven't had a lot of sustained success in football and their facilities are bad.

San Diego St, Boise St, and Colorado St all move the footprint westward which is contrary to the current goals.

I am kind of intrigued by UCF and USF. They are both in markets that are better than Cincy or Memphis. if you are going to consider them I think you have to take them both to ease the travel situation. You could potentially add them to my Expansion plan as full members and slide BYU over to the South. I don't think I would rush to grab them right away though--give it a few years and see how they are performing and see if those Florida TV dollars would justify a move to 14.


Big XII should add BYU, Colorado State, Cincinatti, UCF, USF, and Memphis, That would be 16 then turn the longhorn network into the Big XII Network. To say Colorado State would add a westward footprint makes no sense when your flying west of Colorado to Utah for BYU. :D


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:08 pm 
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I checked out the USA Today database on college athletic revenue and expense. Unfortunately, private schools are not included.

Here's the combined ticket sales and athletic contribution components of revenue for 2014. The high, low and average for the current Big 12 members are listed for comparison.

2014 Ticket Sales & Contributions
$91,288,432 ____ Texas (Big 12 High)
$51,838,495 ____ Big 12 Avg
$31,820,769 ____ Iowa St (Big 12 Low)
$19,984,268 ____ Memphis
$19,478,218 ____ Boise St
$16,619,510 ____ New Mexico
$13,131,025 ____ East Carolina
$12,449,961 ____ Cincinnati
$10,508,532 ____ UCF
$9,440,548 ____ Colorado St
$8,699,309 ____ USF
$6,901,424 ____ Houston

It's interesting that among the nine Big 12 candidates, the two schools at the top also happen to have the smallest enrollments. Memphis and Boise St. were first and second each revenue categories.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:23 pm 
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The B12 does want to travel to Boise.

UC just enlarged its stadium to over 40k.

Cinn has a tv market that is suitable for the Bengals.Boise does not.

Orlando Florida has a great tv market Boise does not.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:15 pm 
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There was some very good information that came along a few weeks back which implied the Big 12 would expand, however, not with two schools like everyone assumes. My first thought was the Big 12 may expand with 14 schools. Many of the various information out there is coming from sensationalism provided by Blog posters and can not be taken seriously. This one tidbit caught me by surprise and may have some substance.

After more thought, the Big 12 could be planning on expanding with just one school and revert back to playing an 8 game schedule and staging a championship game with two highest ranked teams each season.

With the ACC and SEC committed to an eight game conference schedule and wanting to play more OOC games with other power leagues, the Big 12 would be idea to pick up some of these games if the league went back to an eight game schedule.

With 11 schools and an eight game conference schedule, the league avoids the issue of having one division dominate the other as in the past North/South split, and there is justification to playing a championship game when each of the 11 schools does not play two other schools each year. The Big Ten played this schedule for years with 11 schools and had to use tie breakers because the NCAA rule of playing the championship game at that time required 12 schools.

With 11 schools the Big 12 avoids the concern of having a lower ranked team from a weaker division knock the higher ranked team out of the playoffs that occurred several times during the BCS.

BYU is already considered a power school and has a home for the Olympic type sports which would be difficult to travel. BYU as a football only member would not require the ugliness of raiding another league.

Baylor
BYU
Iowa Sate
Kansas
Kansas State
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
TCU
Texas
Texas Tech
WVU

This lineup would be very powerful and not dilute football and cause travel pains which occur with other non football sports.

It would justify and a football championship game with uneven conference schedules which basically occur with 12 or 14 member leagues and the leagues.

This option basically solves all the Big 12 issues of needing a championship game without causing all kinks of other issue to surface with expanding with 12 or 14 schools.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:12 pm 
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Most of our conversations regarding the Power 5 consolidating into the Power 4 have involved the Big 12 collapsing due to the lack of title game being a hindrance with the playoff committee leading to disgruntled members seeking options elsewhere. Perhaps it will not be the Big 12 who is usually left out of the playoff but the ACC. Towards the end of the BCS era the ACC was generally the weakest of the 5 surviving conferences (the Big East was often even weaker but they did not survive to see the playoff era). It's is not difficult to surmise that their struggles will continue. I can imagine that being left out of the playoffs will lead to discontent among the ranks and that members of the ACC would seek a league who could make the playoffs annually. It is no secret that the SEC has interest in the states of North Carolina and Virginia. I can also see the ACCs traditional powers like Florida St, Clemson, Miami, Georgia Tech, and Louisville being discontent but these schools are all in SEC states and have no hope of getting into that league because of being blocked by instate rivals. could a deal be struck between those 5 schools, and let's say UNC, UVA, and VT to end the ACC? UNC and UVA go to the SEC giving that league a boost in basketball as well as academic reputation and the other 6 form an eastern wing of the Big 12. Virginia political battles are avoided because both schools land in an elite conference and they can maintain an annual OOC rivalry game with no hard feelings. The last two votes to disband the ACC could then come from two schools extended offers by the Big Ten--I'd put ND, Pitt, Syracuse, and Boston College in this pool. Maybe the Big Ten is feeling generous and takes all 4. Left out are Duke, WF, NC St, and likely 2 northeastern schools.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:22 pm 
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BYU (if just football only) clearly adds value to the Big XII inventory. Likewise, Cincinnati is more valuable than: Baylor, TCU, Iowa State, Kansas State, Texas Tech. It stands to reason that there is at least one voting member of the Big XII not interested in adding value to the Big XII inventory. Perhaps a "clean break" is coming sooner than we think. The Big Ten is not afraid to "raid" other conferences. The Big Ten has "done research" on at least one current SEC school (Missouri).

Perhaps, something could be worked out wherein the SEC temporarily drops to 13 if only to free up a spot in a post-Big XII world.

e.g.

-Missouri declares it is leaving the SEC for the Big Ten.
-Texas, Oklahoma, Florida State join the SEC.
-Kansas joins the Big Ten.
-Both the Big Ten and SEC have 16 members and clearly defined eastern and western divisions.
-This ensures that the Big Ten and SEC are the first 16-school conferences and that the P5 has become a P4.
-From here, the same strategy could be employed by the Big Ten and SEC to become the first 20-school conferences by joint-raiding the ACC.
-North Carolina, North Carolina State, Virginia, Virginia Tech join the SEC.
-Notre Dame, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Boston College join the Big Ten.
-Both the Big Ten and SEC have 20 members... and no conceivable competition. The P4 has become a P2. The PAC could only add BYU, Hawaii and others of that ilk.
-Both could also reach 24 with diminished returns, but even more of a monopoly in a P2 world.
-Clemson, Louisville, Georgia Tech, West Virginia join the SEC.
-Connecticut, Iowa State, Cincinnati, Duke join the Big Ten.

p.s. The foreshadowing of these events was the Big XII passing on Louisville. Fox forced the Big XII into taking a tenth school. Imagine the thought process of a conference content to sit at just nine schools and passing up: West Virginia, Louisville and Cincinnati. That was the mindset of the Big XII whilst Texas and Oklahoma were receiving public offers from other conferences. Things are not stable in the Big XII. The 33% loss of founding membership in less than 20 years does not signify a conference on solid ground. History has shown that when given an offer with no strings attached, a Big XII school will join a different conference in so far as they can leave individually. Do the state politics of Kansas, Oklahoma and Texas carry enough weight to limit those flagships to life in a conference of diminished value? Texas A&M has already broken this chain in Texas. Does anyone really think that the State of Kansas would prevent Kansas from accepting a Big Ten invite? Oklahoma State is very undervalued in my mind. The greatest Oklahoma State team of all time just defeated the greatest Stanford team of all time. The PAC needs to get their act together and invite both Oklahoma schools while they still have a chance to. Losing out on Oklahoma is in a very real sense losing out on Texas as well. The worst-case scenario is that the PAC will be in effect left behind as the Big Ten and SEC grow twice their current size.

Another "clean break" example...

-Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Kansas, Iowa State to PAC (3 new states, 4 good basketball programs, 4 Central Time Zones, 2 good football programs, 2 AAU schools)
-Texas, West Virginia, Florida State to SEC (1 new state, solidify states of Texas and Florida, 3 good basketball and football programs, 1 AAU school, easier now to to raid ACC)
-Missouri, Connecticut to Big Ten (2 new states, 2 good basketball programs, that much closer to claiming NYC market, 1 AAU school)
-Notre Dame (in full), Cincinnati, UCF to ACC (recovers from losing FSU with slight profit, 2 new states, UCF is fastest-growing Go5, all 3 additions good for TV)

4 Super Conferences of 16 schools, six former Big XII schools have P4 homes. TCU has only been P5 level for three years. Sad to go back, but it's only been a three year stay. Baylor reached P5 by hook and crook over more deserving schools such as Rice, Tulane and New Mexico. Kansas State has always been a simple formula of Junior College All-Stars and very soft schedules. Texas Tech hasn't done anything of note in 110 years of playing college sports. Their greatest moment is beating Texas in a 2-loss season culminating in losing to an unranked Ole Miss team in the Cotton Bowl. In hoops, they hired a coach infamous for dressing down prominent athletic directors and physically abusing his own players. Even with said coach and the temporary boost in notoriety, one trip to the Sweet 16 was the highlight.

For those of you familiar with the music industry. Like the ACC, rap group NWA had a "Grant of Rights". Dr. Dre and Ice Cube broke the Grant of Rights to sign with other labels. The remaining members of NWA did in a sense "own the media rights" of Maryland and Florida State despite both members now recording music for different recording companies. Likewise, I see ESPN ironing out the ACC Grant of Rights to ensure a "cease fire" and a Notre Dame-infused ACC. Unlike many here, I don't see the Grant of Rights as holding the collage football landscape together. The SEC doesn't even have one! Sure, nobody has challenged it..... yet. Remember when Oklahoma once challenged the NCAA itself? Remember when Northwestern challenged the nature of being a student athlete? To think these Grant of Rights will hold after say the Big XII loses 60% of its current membership is nuts. Every contract on the planet can be changed if the circumstances are mutually beneficial. The Big Ten is talking to TV companies as we speak. They are not at all afraid of eliminating the Big XII conference from the landscape. Nor is the SEC. Neither business titan is afraid of the ACC either.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:49 pm 
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I believe 4 team expansion is better than 2. Cincinnati, Memphis, UCF, and ECU seem to make sense. UCF and ECU may not make geographical sense. Without stats to back up my opinions, I just believe these schools and the cities and states they reside in offer positives for the Big 12. Arguments can be made for a number of other schools. I think a presence in Big 10, SEC and ACC regions would somehow bring more credibility. Would welcome all opinions on my rather vague approach.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:13 pm 
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I like this.

East:
WVU
Texas
Baylor
Cincinnati
UCF
ECU
Iowa St.


West:
Oklahoma
Oklahoma St.
TCU
Kansas
Kansas St.
Texas Tech
Memphis
Keep the "big games" Texas- Oklahoma Oklahoma- Oklahoma St. TCU- Baylor Kansas-Kansas St.
WVU-Cincinnati ECU-UCF could turn into rivalry games.


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