DawgNDuck,

Housel's quote is interesting. From a purely financial standpoint, moving down to 10 would be brilliant, since they could cut lose some teams and make room for a mega-deal expansion back to 12 or even 14 teams. Nothing against Miss St., South Carolina, or Vandy, but cutting out two of those three could make room for Texas and Texas A&M (or maybe Oklahoma?) in the west.

Apart from trimming down in order to maybe bring in Texas teams, I really could see the SEC bringing in Va Tech, for all the reasons stated above. They are a perfect fit in the ACC, very succesful, but not in trouble under Beemer. They're also the only power program in the south they could add that would pose no threat to SEC recruiting, so there wouldn't be any objections to their inclusion on that basis. The fan support in Va Tech were an SEC invite extended would be through the roof. They would go ape crap over it. The SEC would not regret it. West Va would not be a bad addition either, but may not be worth the extra mouth to feed.

From a purely financial standpoint, I think the SEC ought to trim down to 11 for te time being and bring Va Tech on board. Then try like hell to court Texas and Texas A&M with an offer to go to 14. They might have to keep Vandy on board to bring in Texas. They should also send feelers out to Oklahoma, because they could always boot one more team to bring in the Sooners. This conference would make an obscene amount of money:

West

Arkansas
LSU
Oklahoma
Ole Miss
Texas
Texas A&M

East

Alabama
Auburn
Florida
Georgia
Kentucky
Virginia Tech

South Carolina would only get booted if another team like Va Tech was more valuable to the conference, and I'm not sure they would be.

I seriously doubt the SEC will boot a member to invite a new one. That being said, they'd be more likely to book Arkansas or SC than they would Vanderbilt. UK, UT, Ole Miss, and Bama have traditional rivalries with Vandy and would probably defend their staying in the SEC for good.

And don't put it past the SEC to do something outlandish like expand to 16 teams. There are a lot of shake-ups about to happen. The Big East and Conf. USA are about to topple like a Jenga tower. If the SEC can find four schools to expand with and make a format we've never seen in CFB, then they'll do it, especially if there's more $$$ involved.

Plus, with a 16-team format, the SEC has a playoff. Then every conference is going to want a playoff. And FINALLY we'll have what we've always wanted in CFB.

The SEC will lead the way.

Now THAT is interesting. I hadn't thought about going to 16 for a playoff. Seems too big to happen, but if any conference A: would do it, and B: could pull it off and make even more money, it'd be the SEC. There are certainly enough solid cultural fits with solid fan support and quality football available to make it possible, but how on earth would they set up their own playoff? Three divisions and the highest ranked wildcard? Two divisions and two wildcards?

In the south, this would be huge. The biggest stumbling block would be the extra games (but I guess the conference teams could agree to stick to an 11 game schedule), and losing a shot at the BCS title game because of late losses. One thing it would help the SEC with is avoiding leaving teams like UT (who finished second to Florida a zillion times) out in the cold. As the top ranked wildcard, a team like that could be matched against the lowest seeded divisional champ (like Arkansas who stepped in for Bama last year), and might knock them off to set up a more attractive conference title game.

As dangerous as that would be for undefeated SEC teams, any team winning the SEC semi-final and title game that had 2 losses or less going in would have an outside shot at the BCS title game. With only one loss going in, they'd probably soar up in the BCS standings, bumping past any undefeated team from a conference without a title game. This also could be a worthwhile gamble, because now FSU and Miami will have to play each other in-conference with only one conference championship to be had between them. That gives everyone else in a quality conference with only one loss a better shot at the BCS. The ACC title game may also be an equalizer. No more easy 11/12-0 runs for FSU or Miami, and no backing into a conference title.

Expansion past 12 can potentially become very complicated.

13 won't happen.

If they go to 14 (w/WVU&VT), they'll keep two divisions, move Vandy to the West. One downside = they're bringing in a heavyweight (VT) and a middle-heavyweight (WVU) to the East while moving the weakest team to the West. Might be a problem--don't know.

Now, they could go to 15, adding WVU VT along with Central Florida (or maybe East Carolina - pick 'em). This would allow three 5-team divisions. Three div champs, one WC. Top 2 get home games, SECCG at a neutral site.

Now the big one--16. If this happens, it's likely that it'll be with WVU & VT along with two of the following four: ECU UCF TCU Houston. I'd bet on WVU VT ECU UCF. The four divisions could be like this:

W1:
Arkansas
LSU
Ole Miss
Mississippi State

W2:
Alabama
Kentucky
Tennessee
Vanderbilt

E1:
Auburn
Central Florida
Florida
Georgia

E2:
East Carolina
South Carolina
Virginia Tech
West Virginia

With the divisions as small as they are, it makes it not so bad to be in a tough division (ie, all you have to do is beat out three teams to have a shot at the SECC).

What do you think of the divisions? How would you divide them? I assume you can do this, Nole, because you've probably tried dividing up the new ACC up and it's hard as hell to come up with something that makes sense (Duke & Wake in the North and UNC & NCSU in the South???)...

More possibilities of SEC expansion:

(additions in bold)

VERSION ONE

W1:
Arkansas
LSU
Ole Miss
TCU

W2:
Alabama
Auburn
Mississippi State
Vanderbilt

E1:
East Carolina
Florida
Georgia
South Carolina

E2:
Kentucky
Tennessee
Virginia Tech
West Virginia

----------------------------

VERSION TWO

W1:
Arkansas
LSU
Mississippi State
TCU

W2:
Kentucky
Ole Miss
Tennessee
Vanderbilt

E1:
Alabama
Auburn
Central Florida
Florida


E2:
East Carolina
Georgia
South Carolina
Virginia Tech

----------------------------

LSUtootnanny, I like your 16 team SEC idea. Another possible alignment with the four team divisions:

East: Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, East Carolina

North: Virginia Tech, West Virginia, Louisville, Kentucky

South: Tennessee, Vanderbilt, Alabama, Auburn

West: LSU, Arkansas, Mississippi, Miss State

North vs South football champions in Birmingham

East vs West champions in Orlando

SEC football championship in Atlanta

Winner Advances to Sugar Bowl in New Orleans


I proposed a 16 team idea for the Big East. Have all four divisions play at local sites with the final four advancing to the SEC championship. Every team plays round robin in the assigned division and plays all other teams once for a total of 18 games. The Pac 10 plays 18 regular games so it works playing 18 games.

North in Louisville

South in Nashville

East in Atlanta

West in New Orleans

SEC Final Four basketball rotate between Atlanta and New Orleans

Lash, I'm changing my mind. Here's the four the SEC should invite (and could get):

1. Virginia Tech--no surprise.
2. North Carolina State--Perfect fit for the SEC. Best football on Tobacco Road, and not as traditional as Duke & UNC. NCSU might accept an invite.
3. Clemson--Their biggest rival, South Carolina, is in the SEC, and they're a big football school. Something tells me they'd love to be in the SEC.
4. Either Central Florida or South Florida. Both these schools have hot futures, great recruiting areas, big, nice stadiums, and big markets. If the SEC passes these two up while expanding to 16, the ACC will get them when they copy the SEC 10 years from now.

So here's what the divisions might look like:
W1: Arkansas, LSU, Ole Miss, Mississippi State
W2: Alabama, Kentucky, Tennessee, Vanderbilt
E1: Auburn, Florida, Georgia, UCF/USF
E2: Clemson, North Carolina State, South Carolina, Virginia Tech



So what happens to the ACC? Well, they get a little more of what they asked for. They're down to 10, but look who's available--West Virginia & Pittsburgh. They could add them and close that geographical gap between Maryland and New York.

LSUtootnanny, you will never get NC State to leave its fellow NC 4. So put West Virginia back in with Virginia Tech, Clemson, South Carolina and you got a winner in that division. Besides, WVU, Va Tech, and South Carolina all have major grips with the ACC and may never want to be in a conference that includes a North Carolina football school other than East Carolina. Virginia Tech was voted down this time, WVU was voted down in the 50s and South Carolina left due to the NC4. Sure hope Miami, Syracuse and BC are doing the right thing on joining the ACC.

I would try to add Miami and FSU into the SEC mix.

I am not sure which team I like the best of CFU and SFU. The both have great potential. You will probably see both of these schools in a new Big East some day if the SEC does not get them first.

Maybe the SEC should add Miami, FSU, CFU, and SFU as one of the four divisions.

Just as an aside, Virginia Tech was spurned by the ACC in the late 70’s when Georgia Tech was selected over the Hokies. I do not know what the situation was regarding Virginia Tech when the ACC was formed in the 50’s and why we were not invited then. I read Maryland was supposed to sponsor West Virginia during the formation, but it just never happened. I think the ACC hates us.

My selections:
VT= no surprises here. Perfect SEC fit.
Clemson= depends if they want to come on board or not. In addition to UNC & Duke having second thoughts about expansion, some Clemson legislators are kinda of wary of it as well. If Clemson wants in, sure why not?
NC State- again, depends if they want to be in.
Central Florida= I agree with you LSUtootnanny, that UCF (as well as USF) has a very bright future. I like UCF over USF because of the fact that they don't have other pro sports to compete against. UCF could develop a VT-like fan base in a few years. Academics are very similar to Georgia Tech, so I'm not worried in the least about that. ;D

I may be wrong, but I believe VPI was not real big-time sports back in the 50s'. I know they had a long rivalry with
Virginia Military Institute, and the series was discontinued in or near the 70s'.

Interesting speculation. Maybe talk to the people in the old WAC about the problems associated with 16 member conferences. The MAC is now at 14 for football. At 16, may as well just split in half and have too separate ones. The real problem is with 11 or 12 game regular season games of which 3 or so are out of conference. If there were blocks of four, and playoffs, that would include two post regular season games to reach a champion. Plus a bowl, that could be as many as 15 games. I believe BYU has done that before, but that creates a lot problems, including academic and calendar. However, I-AA , and other lower divisions, do it it playoffs, but for !-A, there would be profound forces in opposition.
With a 16 team conference, during the regular season, only one more team than half will be played during the regular season. Continuity begins to unravel a bit. However, I like the cluster stuff. For example, take South Carolina. If I could pick four teams they would play every year, it would be Clemson,
Georgia, NC State, and Tennessee. It would be good that certain teams have permanent OOC games. Those schools that border or near other conference rivals would like it. Teams like Auburn and Alabama may not since all their rivals are in the same conference.
I agree that USF, UCF, USM, and ECU are worthy of
consideration for more associations of prestige. However, there is a stigma associated with directional named state insitutions. This is perhaps unfair to them; but big time conferences are not accommodating them.
If the SEC was expanding, West Virginia and VPI may be attractive. Go 50 or so miles north of Morgantown, and then there's Pitt ;D

Lash, you're probably right about NCSt. I'd just like to see the SEC represented in every state in the South (I wouldn't lose sleep over not having TX or WV). That's why earlier I mentioned ECU.

And four Florida schools added to the SEC?! I'd love to tick those Gainesville fans off by doing that, but that'll never happen.

Most of the SEC hates Miami so much that we don't even respect them for being so successful--don't look for them being put into the mix--just a prediction.

BCHokie, call it--would you want VT in the SEC? Honestly, I think y'all have a few around the SEC fans after what was a great atmosphere that hinted at a possible future rivalry when you whupped (I hate you) LSU back in August. Also, in terms of geography, you'd be less secluded than LSU, Arkansas, and Florida.

USC and Clemson will never be in the same conference again. I cannot see it happening. When USC withdrew from the ACC in the early 70s, Clemson was to do the same. At the last minute, Clemson decided to stay in the ACC.

Again, I cannot see why it keeps coming up on this board that the SEC would kick SC out? It would make no sense. Pro-type facilities, sold out stadium for every game, passionate fans, owns the SC media market as well as a large portion of Charlotte, has won a basketball title and very good in minor sports. Shall we finally put that argument to rest?

The SEC will not kick out any teams. They could pressure Vandy to drop football, but that would send a very bad message.

LSUtootnanny, I DEFINITELY WANT VIRGINIA TECH IN THE SEC. This is regardless of Miami or the Big East. I have felt this way for years. If you think the crowd and atmosphere are good while playing in the Big East, it would be tremendous if we were in the SEC. I know my fellow Tech alumni would get up every week for games against SEC opponents, especially given that so many are in close proximity. Tech has developed rivalries in the Big East, but sometimes they just don't feel right. I actually do believe that Miami, Syracuse, and Boston College are good fits to the ACC. Likewise for Rutgers and Connecticut. The ACC should get them, too and expand to 14. Virginia Tech is really much more of an SEC type of school. I have a basis for comparison; I spent four years in Blacksburg as an undergrad and two years in Knoxville at UT as a grad student. The rivalries would develop quickly, especially Tech vs Tennessee. My Tennessee buddies always seemed stoked about the idea. In my opinion, Tech feels right in the SEC.

arbitrage97, I agree that a member institution should not simply be booted from the conference, i.e. Temple from the Big East or Vanderbilt / South Carolina in this case. I believe that it does send a bad message. For a school to leave on it own is one thing, but for the other members to vote them out is poor. By the way, Tech voted against Temple's ousting.