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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:19 pm 
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Most Big10 stories or thoughts that involve expansion will likely be the NotreDame option, so any that involve discussion of both entities or their interaction, possible courtship, their rationale for existing together, etc. would be appropriate here. To get us started I'll post a very wise column from the Chicago Tribune today that does express the natural order of things for many midwesterners: I'll cite it in full since registration is required:

November 14, 2003
Rick Morrissey

In The Wake Of The News
If Irish need dance partner, only Big Ten fits

Some things are so right and so obvious that to not do them is silly. Notre Dame in the Big Ten is one of those right and obvious things.

The Irish are said to be talking with the Atlantic Coast Conference about shedding their football independence and locking arms with a group of institutions for the first time in school history. This is one of those all-wrong things. Notre Dame in the ACC would be like Tobacco Road relocating to South Bend.

According to USA Today, Notre Dame also has chatted with the Big Ten, which can't afford the indignity of having the Irish join another conference. Surely Notre Dame knows this, which might be the reason it is slow dancing with the ACC. (The last time the Big Ten lured an independent into its fold, Penn State made sure that, for four years in a row, it had a week off before playing Michigan. Expect Notre Dame to demand that opponents kneel in obeisance before games, and the Big Ten to counter with an offer of simple genuflection.)

What would seem to make sense all the way around might not make sense to Notre Dame, and that's what has to be addressed first. After all, it could lose its individuality, the glamor of being a national program and its flexibility in scheduling. Why would the Irish even think about abandoning a situation in which they have their own TV contract with NBC?

Because things change, and for the first time in history, Notre Dame might just need the Big Ten as much as the other way around.

The TV contract for football is up after the 2005 season, and NBC officials have been tight-lipped about whether they want to extend the deal. Never a good sign, those tight lips.

The Bowl Championship Series contract is up after the 2005 season, too, and the one that takes its place might not be so accommodating to an independent Notre Dame. As it stands now, if the Irish meet certain criteria (at least nine victories, a spot in the top 10 of the final BCS rankings, etc.), they are all but assured a BCS game. That could change with a new contract.

In other words, Notre Dame might not be the 800-pound green gorilla anymore.

"Whereas once Notre Dame was one of the few national schools, I think there are a lot of national schools now," Minnesota athletic director Joel Maturi, a 1967 Notre Dame graduate, said Thursday. "TV has changed that. The Big Ten is national, even though it's still relatively geographic. My daughter lives in California and she can watch the Gophers if we're on ESPN on Saturday morning. That wasn't true 20 years ago or even 10 years ago.

"I don't know if Notre Dame has that definite uniqueness that it once had alone. That's nobody's fault. It doesn't mean they've done anything lesser. It's just the reality."

To understand Notre Dame, you have to understand that everything it does is carried out with the idea that it is special. It's a wonderful outlook and true in a lot of ways, but it also can be confining. The fear among Notre Dame officials and alumni always has been that the school will lose some of that singularity by joining a conference—even a conference with schools that have a long tradition of athletic and academic success.

Somewhere along the line, Notre Dame decided its mystique was tied to its independence, but that's not what makes it unique. Its uniqueness comes from the fact it is a national power that won't make academic concessions. I don't know how that changes if Notre Dame joins a conference that includes Michigan, Ohio State, Michigan State, Purdue and, if we're talking top academic schools, Northwestern.

Notre Dame never will be one of many, in the same way Michigan isn't. Some programs transcend their conferences. Florida State is Florida State, not another school from the ACC.

Here's the best benefit of membership in the Big Ten for the Irish: They wouldn't feel the pressure of scheduling tough opponents week after week as a way of appeasing NBC. The insane schedule they have now—Washington State, Michigan, Purdue, Michigan State, USC and Florida State, among others—won't be necessary. Less money, yes, but more breathing room.

The Big Ten offered Notre Dame entry in 1999 and was not happy with the way Irish officials handled things when they turned down the invitation. This time, they might have some crawling to do.

Notre Dame eventually will give up its independence, though it's hard to believe the school will give it up to the ACC. Last anybody heard, Notre Dame was doing most of its recruiting in Big Ten country.

"I believe someday that [Notre Dame's] independence will not continue," Maturi said. "I don't know when that someday is."

Someday very soon makes sense.

8-)



Last edited by javaman on Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2003 6:34 am 
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DREW SHARP: Big 11 should leap at chance to court Irish
November 15, 2003
BY DREW SHARP
FREE PRESS COLUMNIST
http://www.freep.com/sports/drewsharp/drew15_20031115.htm


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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2003 10:08 am 
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Allow me to comment on the FreePress article, which cautions Delany and his office not to blow what looks to be another opportunity to court Notre Dame.

I think the columnist, though correct to caution Delany's office, may not accurately sense what has been going on as far as Big10/NCAA/BCS politics in the last several years. Delany and his staff have been subtly but effectively pro-active in trying to bring NotreDame back into a dialogue posture in a very low-profile sort of way. Here's how:

1. The Big10 offices have been studiously avoiding saying anything negative re NotreDame since NotreDame mishandled the 1999 approaches. They have continued this type of posture throughout all the ACC/BE turmoil the past year, and are continuing to not comment or react to anything, keeping a low profile so absolutely no-one loses face over anything.

2. Behind the scenes, the Big10 has been very pro-active in the BCS conferences gaining influence within the BCS. This includes NotreDame losing its vote and representation a year ago, and the subtle signals that BCS access in the future will be equal for all those schools that are not in BCS conferences, as well as indications the bowl payout for an independent would no longer be equal to a conference share in the future. All these signals were sent not in any public manner, but most attentive people in the press are aware this is the direction things seem to be moving.

3. The Big10 has publicly continued to state it is not proactive in expansion, so that no other conference would feel threatened, therefore, it has good relationships with all other conferences including, very importantly, both BE and ACC. Therefore, the political skills necessary to influence votes in BCS councils are there, including the traditional alliance with PAC10 interests. PAC10 would love to see NotreDame move to Big10. Let me repeat that, in case it hasn't dawned on others. PAC10 would love to see NotreDame move to Big10. NotreDame regularly elligible and appearing in the RoseBowl would be a dream come true for Southern California. There might even be some year when NotreDame and USC play twice...

4. Delany has seniority among the commissioners, and they will likely defer to many of his opinions, including the one that it is in the health of all conferences that NotreDame join somewhere eventually, so they all have a vested interest in gently encouraging this through BCS formulas, etc.

I think the Big10 will handle any signals from NotreDame gently, subtly, and with great deference. It is a mating dance that will have to be done more carefully this time than before. Hopefully this time vows could be exchanged at some point and college football will be the better for it.

:D


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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2003 11:14 am 
If Notre Dame joins the ACC, SEC, or Big East, doesn't that give them extra recruiting in either the east, south, or northeast. They will continue to get great recruits from the midwest. Notre Dame will be better in three years and is still the country's most popular team. No matter how bad they get they will probably be able to keep a contract with some network for greater than $4 million a tear. I think Notre Dame is down to three options-
1. Stay independent
2. Join the Big 10
3. Join the ACC
Most fans of Notre Dame want Notre Dame to stay independent so they may stay independent for several years unless the team does not improve. For Notre Dame to join the Big Ten, the Big Ten would somehow need to make sure Notre Dame plays Michigan, MSU, Purdue every year. The Big Ten would probably make Notre Dame play all eight conference games so that leaves only three non-conference games.


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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2003 6:21 pm 
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Here are some random thoughts on Notre Dame’s future direction. In my opinion:

1. ND will join a conference for football only when they are forced to do so. They see the writing on the wall now that it will need to occur, but they will hold onto their independence until the situation becomes dire. I don’t believe that we are there yet…

2. The BCS is a wildcard in all of these conference realignment activities and perhaps there will be some direction, if not resolution, in the near future. I can’t reasonably speculate what the political compromise will be, so I will assume for this post that it has no major impact on ND.

3. There is the issue of winning over the ND Board of Trustees, alumni, boosters, and subway fans. Not an easy task, but with the Internet (news articles and boards), it appears to me that many of the ND posters on the boards are also seeing the writing on the wall and as a whole would not be nearly as outraged as they were in 1999, when the Big Ten was courting them.

4. The Big East has taken a hit recently with the loss of three good schools to the ACC. The BE replacement schools have good BB teams, but conference football is significantly weakened. This jeopardizes the BE’s BCS automatic bid. I believe the BE doesn’t deserve the automatic bid, but that they will retain this BCS bid all the same.

5. I believe that all of the ND conference talk these days is posturing to get the best TV deal and keep the Big East in check. The BE is in a position of weakness with ND and that will most likely remain the case. I would love to be a fly on the wall when Tranghese first hears these stories about ND and other conferences talking. I am half surprised that the BE didn’t show that they “had a pair” when the new Big East was being formulated. It’s a shame that nothing was learned by the Big East from their past association with ND.

6. It looks like ND will strike a new TV deal soon. Once they have secured a new TV contract, I believe that ND will be set for the next five years with the Big East, as a football independent.

7. I do believe that ND will "continue to monitor the landscape”. ND is very good at looking out for ND and why shouldn’t they be? As a football independent, no one else is going to look out for their best interests.

8. The best conference fit for ND is the Big Ten:

+ The Big Ten provides very competitive sports teams.
+ From a geographical perspective this makes sense for ND’s Olympic sports.
+ From an academic perspective, the Big Ten is the most prestigious of the D-IA football conferences. According to US News & World Report, five members of the Big Ten are rated as 1st tier and six as 2nd tier. All 11 members belong to the AAU. The ND faculty wants into the CIC consortium.
+ The Big Ten has in general large football stadiums and large attendances for their games.
= Four of the top 9 favorite football schools in the recent Harris poll are from the Big Ten, so ND won’t be losing their national football reputation by playing a full Big Ten schedule. ND playing Indiana and Illinois in football today wouldn’t be real good matchups, but they would certainly help ND’s win/lose record.
= ND already has Michigan, Michigan State, Purdue, and Penn State (2006) on their football schedule. Playing three to 5 out of conference games per year shouldn’t be a problem to keep old rivalries going and a national schedule.
- Keeping a Northeastern exposure is a problem. The only truly Northeastern school today in the Big Ten is Penn State. If the Big Ten wants ND badly enough, they should consider Syracuse, Pittsburgh, or Rutgers to get to 14 teams. All three of these schools are US News & World Report 2nd tier school and all are members of the AAU.
- There are cultural differences. The major issue here is big state school with an emphasis on research versus small private school primarily devoted to undergraduate degrees.
- ND and the Big Ten have a lot of history of turning each other down. I don’t expect ND to come to the Big Ten begging for an invite. And I don’t expect the Big Ten to approach ND anytime soon. Egos are too big on both sides and no one wants to be seen in a role of weakness.

9. The second best fit for ND is the new ACC:

+ The new ACC provides very competitive sports teams.
+ From an academic perspective, the new ACC is one of the most prestigious of the D-IA football conferences. According to US News & World Report, six members of the new ACC are rated as 1st tier and six as 2nd tier. Four ACC members belong to the AAU.
+ Two of the top 7 favorite football schools in the recent Harris poll are from the new ACC, so ND won’t be losing their national football reputation by playing a full ACC schedule. Although playing Wake Forrest and Duke in football aren’t games that I would make a point to watch.
- From a geographical perspective this makes no sense at all for ND’s Olympic sports.
- ND has Florida State and Boston College of the new ACC on their schedule this year. Playing three to 5 out of conference games per year would be a minor problem to keep old rivalries going and a national schedule.
- The only truly Northeastern school today in the new ACC is Boston College. South of the Mason-Dixon line you have the rest of the conference, which I would term as Eastern/ Southeastern schools.
- Notre Dame blew their chance to be number 12 in the ACC and now the ACC is saying that they are not looking to grow any more. The ACC has a track record of waffling back and forth on their position on partial membership for ND. It wouldn’t surprise me if the ACC cut a sweetheart deal with ND, but then they would be buying into the same type of arrangement that the BE has today.
- To add ND as a full member, the ACC would most likely go to 14 schools to balance the conference. In my mind, this is doable, but not optimal. Syracuse would appear to be the front-runner as a partner to join with ND. Unlike BC, Syracuse seemed pretty torn between going to the ACC and staying with the BE. I would like to think that Syracuse is pragmatic enough to make the jump, but who knows?
- Because of a bad experience in the Orange Bowl, ND has vowed not to schedule Miami, so I doubt they would want to be in a football conference with them.
- The cultural differences here are North versus South and Catholic (except for BC) versus Protestant.
- The football stadiums in the new ACC are generally pretty small as compared to what ND usually plays in.

10. I can’t see the new Big East conference getting ND as a full football member, with their current lineup:

+ From a geographical perspective this makes some sense as ND has their Olympic sports there today and they like the Northeast exposure.
+ The majority of the new BE is in the Northeast, except for Louisville, Cincinnati, and Central Florida.
- The new level of football is way, way down. I can’t see ND playing Cincinnati, Louisville, and Central Florida on a regular basis.
- From an academic perspective, the new BE football conference does not excel. According to US News & World Report, four of the members of the new BE football conference are rated as 2nd tier, two 3rd tier, and two 4th tier. Three BE members belong to the AAU.
- None of the top 10 favorite football schools in the recent Harris poll are from the new BE, so ND would be loosing some of their national football reputation by playing a full BE schedule.
- ND has Pittsburgh and Syracuse of the new BE on their schedule this year. Playing 3 to 5 out of conference games per year would be a minor problem to keep old rivalries going and a national schedule.
- ND plays five of these BE football schools as Olympic sports conference members today, so cultural issues with these schools are a non-issue. The new conference schools differ culturally from ND primarily from an academic perspective.
- The BE would have to expand/develop some higher quality football programs with better academics in the next few years to land ND for all sports.

11. Tranghese has stated that ND is “A good partner. They're open with us. They're honest with us.” and “We have a great relationship with Notre Dame.” I see both sides using each other to some extent, but I believe that ND holds most of the cards and it is not a win-win situation. I suspect ND would be a “high maintenance” member for any conference willing to take them on for anything less than full and equal membership. Notre Dame is special, just like everyone else. Be careful what you ask for…


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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:12 am 
Would Notre Dame agree to play 8 Big-Ten games. ??? If they don't, they probably will go o the ACC or stay independent.


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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 2:46 pm 
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If the NCAA allowed ND to play an additional game each year, a la Hawaii, that might give the Irish a little flexibility. I can't see the USC or Navy games going away, and the Boston College rivalry has been pretty heated over the last 10-15 years. In an 11 game season with a full Big Ten schedule, ND would have to drop one of those rivalries or go with the same OOC schedule almost every year (except in 12-game seasons).

I just don't see the Big Ten allowing ND to play the 5 teams in whatever division it would be assigned to and leave it at that. They have no reason to (south) bend.

On another point, the BCS may hold some sway, but don't discount the sway held by lesser bowls. Notre Dame got by with a $1.6-$2 million payout from the Gator Bowl for their 9-3 season as an affiliate member of Big East football. Whatever the new Big East's bowl agreement lineup may look like in two years, it will certainly be less attractive than it is now, and the Irish will not like the menu. If I'm a Golden Domer and my team goes 9-2, I won't be too happy about the Diamond Walnut San Francisco Bowl and its $800,000. For Pete's sake, Illinois will get a bigger share than that just for being the Big Ten's whipping boy.

It may take a few years, but somebody in South Bend is going to crunch the numbers and realize they're better off financially with a conference affiliation, and that means the Big Ten.


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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 4:44 pm 
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Would Notre Dame agree to play 8 Big-Ten games. ??? If they don't, they probably will go o the ACC or stay independent.
Gator Guy, Good question. From an NCAA perspective, the same rules that would apply to the ACC would apply to the Big Ten. I don’t know that a 12 game season has been ruled out going forward. I am in favor of it.

Notre Dame could have a rotating OOC schedule. Does ND really need to play Navy every year, except to pad their win/loss record? BC never played ND until 1975, has played them a total of 15 times, and may not be scheduled in the future due to ND’s hard feelings about their move to the ACC.

I don’t know that the Big Ten needs to play eight other opponents each year in football, that is just what is being done today. The in conference eight game schedule is desirable 1) to have an equal number of home and away games in conference and 2) to play the majority of their conference opponents, while allowing some OOC games.

I believe that if the Big Ten went to 12 or 14 schools, they would decide on divisional play and a championship game. I tried to locate any NCAA or Big Ten rules on the number of in conference games, but didn’t locate any. I will assume that if they went to a divisional format, they would need to play a minimum of every other school in their division (five games with 6 team divisions and six games with 7 team divisions). There would probably be a rival’s rule as well, so add at least one game out of division.

So, ND would need to play between six and 8 games in conference, depending on what the conference members vote to do. Even with 8 conference games, ND would have four games to play with OOC. If ND really wanted Big Ten membership, I don’t think the OOC schedule would be a deal breaker. I am optimistic that if both parties were willing to give a little, an equitable solution could be worked out.


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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:02 am 
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Thanks cybercat for the excellent summary above of the NotreDame situation especially as it affects prospects for a relationship with the Big10.

My own take on the number of conference games is that it would not necessarily have to be 8. If there were two divisions of six each, all teams within the division would have to be played each year (five games). In the other division, the pressure to play the other teams is not nearly so intense, since with a divisional championship game, there would eventually be a guaranteed game with the best team in the other division. As a result, it could be the Big10 might agree to one permanent "rival" in the other division, with the other five teams to be rotated every five years, thus only creating a necessity for seven conference games, and allowing good oportunity for NotreDame to continue the type of OOC scheduling it likes.

It has always bothered me that the Big10 does not allow any of its OOC games to be played during the regular season. Since a 12-team format will probably not have a bye week, that might create more flexibiilty as well, since you would have two further scheduling weeks to play with (no bye, one less conference game). Be great to be a fly on the wall of Kevin White or Jim Delany's offices these days...

:D


Last edited by javaman on Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 9:57 am 
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Quote:
Thanks cybercat for the excellent summary above of the NotreDame situation especially as it affects prospects for a relationship with the Big10.


It has always bothered me that the Big10 does not allow any of its OOC games to be played during the regular season. Since a 12-team format will probably not have a bye week, that might create more flexibiilty as well, since you would have two further scheduling weeks to play with (no bye, one less conference game). Be great to be a fly on the wall of Kevin White or Jim Delany's offices these days...

:D

Javaman, I have to disagree with you here, slightly. The Big Ten does not forbid OOC games to be played during the regular season. See IU vs Kentucky every year. ;D What the Big Ten does not allow is OOC games during the "conference season." The "conference season" begins around late September and ends late November. For example, why does PSU not play Pittsburgh at the end of the season? Or why doesn't Iowa not play Missouri at end of the season? It is because of this prohibition.


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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 12:25 pm 
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Quote:

Javaman, I have to disagree with you here, slightly. The Big Ten does not forbid OOC games to be played during the regular season. See IU vs Kentucky every year. ;D What the Big Ten does not allow is OOC games during the "conference season." The "conference season" begins around late September and ends late November. For example, why does PSU not play Pittsburgh at the end of the season? Or why doesn't Iowa not play Missouri at end of the season? It is because of this prohibition.


The Big Ten does not have an actual rule against OOC games during any part of the season. The rule is just that conference members must give priority to league games. They can go ahead and schedule Alabama, but if the Big Ten tells them they are playing Michigan that day, they must move the Alabama game. The league will not move league games to accomidate OOC games.

Penn State played a homecoming game against Southern Miss a couple of years ago, to fill in a bye week, so clearly this is allowed.

The Big Ten games end the weekend before Thanksgiving. If teams want to play a game the next week, the league is okay with it. Wisconsin plays at Hawaii after the league season every 5 years.


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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 12:30 pm 
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So, ND would need to play between six and 8 games in conference, depending on what the conference members vote to do. Even with 8 conference games, ND would have four games to play with OOC. If ND really wanted Big Ten membership, I don’t think the OOC schedule would be a deal breaker. I am optimistic that if both parties were willing to give a little, an equitable solution could be worked out.

I don't see the league going below 8 games nor allowing ND to play less than the full amount.

Currently, the league is set up so that, during their 4 years of playing, a football player will visit each stadium and have each team at their home field at least once.

I expect the league will keep this philosophy and not go to the "interdivisional rival" route.

5 intradivision + 3 interdivision = 8
The 3 are on the schedule for 2 years and then off the next 2 years.

= all teams home and away at least once in a 4-year period.


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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2003 7:07 am 
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Taking an independent stance
By Fred Mitchell
Tribune staff reporter
November 18, 2003, 10:54 PM CST
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/cs-031118irish,1,4418567.story?coll=cs-home-headlines


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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2003 7:40 am 
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You can tell from the above that the problem for NotreDame, as it was in 1999, is that everyone "in touch" and "on campus" and "on the inside" knows the right moves to make. The problem is convincing all the others that live in the past (fans and alumni). Hope NotreDame can do a better job with the latter this time around.

;D


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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2003 9:39 pm 


Notre Dame Should Join the Big 10...and make it 12 teams...or they can trade off ND for Penn State to the Big East...Either way...the Big 10 is where ND needs to be..


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