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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:41 am 

Quote:
Joke Pa forgot to turn off the lights last night.


Dang Tigersharktwo, remind me to send one of those T shirts from the local sports bar that reads...........

JOE KNOWS FOOTBALL

I suspect they could become a collector's item in Long Island.


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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:11 pm 
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Quote:

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First, State college is about the same distance from Both Pittsburgh and Philly. ITs about 3 hr 22 min from Pitt and 3 hrs 47 min from Philly - this is from Yahoo Driving Directions.

Second, you are talking apples and oranges with teh Cubs and WhiteSox compared to PSU and Pittsburgh as both baseball teams are LOCATED in Chicago.

Penn State is a State-Wide team and draws fans from all over the State. PSU has large Alumni Associations in Pittsburgh and Philly Area and is a much larger undergrad and overall enrollment than Pitt. Pitt is primarily a regional team. However, Pitt has more alumni than PSU in WPa.

Pittsburgh is a city with a population of 335,000 and State College is 38,000. State College is a college town and you will notice that the whole town is PSU. If I had to compare, I would compare Pittsburgh to Atlanta in a sense of covering colleges. BOTH UGa and GT share coverage (maybe Gunner can clarify this) while only one school is located in Atlanta (GT). However, UGa is a lot closer to Atlanta than PSU is to Pittsburgh.

If you would like to know the who gets more coverage all you ahve to do is to count the number of articles they have on Pitt vs. PSU. That'll give you the answer. I can tell you that Pitt gets more articles than PSU but its not an overwhelming majority - I would say its close to 50/50 but Pitt is definetely not a PSU town. ITs a Steelers town First.

THe Pittsburgh newspaper follow the college teams in this order:

1 - Pitt
1A - PSU
3 - WVU
4 - Smaller colleges (Duquesne, Point Park, Waynesburg, etc).

If you are talking about coverage with PSU to say Villanova or Temple in Philly, then no doubt about it that PSU wins.


Panthersc97,

I'll take your word that there's neither Pitt or PSU is markedly more dominant than the other in Pittsburgh and that Pitt may have the slight edge.

Similarly, Chicago is a Bears town first and foremost. Most people from outside of Chicago seem to think that the Cubs are the most popular team here because they've always been national media darlings, but they forget about the small (but just as passionate) White Sox fan base that seriously hates the Cubs. People who grow up here just don't cheer for both teams and it's separated by geographic boundaries. The Bears, however, unite the town and receive blanket newspaper and sports talk coverage beginning with the NFL draft up until the last game of the season (and this is when the Bears are terrible - just imagine how this town was around the Bears during the 1980s).

The interesting dichotomy in Chicago for college football is that Notre Dame is the individual school that gets the most coverage but the Big Ten in the aggregate gets more prominent attention. The Chicago papers follow the Big Ten race really closely no matter who is in contention (all bets are off when Illinois or Northwestern end up having a rare successful season).

ND basketball actually ended up distancing itself from the Chicago market when it joined the BE. The Irish basketball team used to be considered a Chicago "home team" on par with Illinois and DePaul, but that really dissipated when ND dropped so many midwestern rivalries in exchange for the BE conference schedule. Now, Illinois and the Big Ten dominate college basketball coverage with DePaul getting some attention (that also used to be the other way around). I believe ND basketball will be helped alot here by being associated with DePaul and Marquette again in the new BE, but it will still be hard for the BE to grab headlines from the Big Ten in Chicago.


IBD,

Don't just take my word for it, you can take a look at the two local newspapers. I will provide the links:

www.triblive.com
www.post-gazette.com

On average they usually have the same amount of articles on Pitt or PSU. Obviously Pitt gets more pub with BB because of how well the team has done lately and outside of a few good years PSU bb has basically stunk (at least in recent memory).

As to Chicago and the Big10 - that doesn't surprise me at all. The Big10 HQs are in Chicago, NW is located basically right there with UI really 'close'. In addition, the conference is centered around the midwest and I'm sure many grads of Big10 schools (since they are pretty big with like 30k in enrollment) work in and around Chicago. One last point is that the only major Div 1 shcool nearby that plays FB near Chicago is ND... Bascially, the whole midwest market is the Big10. from parts of PA to Cleveland, Indy, Detroit, Madison, Minneapolis, Chicago, etc......


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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:39 pm 
Wouldn't be easier to give Penn State the boot after they had played in the conference for the last five years.


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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:55 pm 
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????

PSU accepted the Big10 invite in either 1989 or 1990 and have been playing since 1993.


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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:20 am 
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Ahh, the board idiot strikes again.


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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:02 pm 
Penn State - Notre Dame game set:

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/sports/13835360.htm


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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:11 pm 
Before anybody gets on my case about the below article being dated, two year old, I know that. Obviously, things change some in a two-year period. Other than a historical note, it does show the "thinking on conference affiliation", directly from Notre Dame itself. Since that time, however, Notre Dame's general views on conference joining in "all sports", probably has changed little.

Notre Dame Magazine, John Heisler, Associate Athletic Director at Notre Dame, Jan. '04. Athletic Conference Affiliation:
Is Notre Dame Still in a League of Its Own?
By John Heisler
<Page 1 of 1 >

"Don't feel bad if you're confused about who plays in which college athletic conference these days.

It was one thing in 1978 when old-school leagues such as the former Pacific-8 Conference became the Pac-10, and the Southeastern Conference in '91 added teams. It was yet another in '93 when the Big Ten added Penn State as its 11th school, and in '96 when the former Big Eight absorbed some schools from the old Southwest Conference to form the Big 12.

But now the Big East Conference, traditionally an East Coast association, has teams from Indiana, Illinois, Ohio, Wisconsin and Kentucky, while the Atlantic Coast Conference (ACC) now extends from Boston to Miami. Conference USA? Check your morning newspaper to see if anyone has been added or subtracted today.

Amid all this, Notre Dame has been rumored in the media to be joining the ACC for all sports except football, then joining the ACC for all sports including football, then finally announcing it was "staying the course" when in early November the Big East added five schools.

That means Notre Dame continues to be a member of the Big East for most sports other than football (though it remains eligible for secondary bowl games through the Big East), and that leaves the Notre Dame football program with its independent status.

For now.

Notre Dame Athletic Director Kevin White has read all the position papers and heard all the impassioned philosophies about the importance of maintaining Irish football independence. For those alumni, fans and others who believe strongly that independence provides Notre Dame football with its distinctive identity (in part through its national scheduling philosophy and its 15-year television contract with NBC Sports), there's no room for negotiation. Former Athletic Director Mike Wadsworth heard a similar chorus when the prospect of Notre Dame joining the Big Ten was debated in 1998-99 -- and he admits no subject prompted a more emotional response than that one did.

With all that in mind, Notre Dame has promised to "continue to monitor the landscape." Eeven though Notre Dame has existed and generally flourished as a football independent for the last 90 years, ever-changing conditions suggest there's no guarantee the same will automatically hold true for the next 90 years.

A brief history lesson may be in order to appreciate how the terrain has evolved since 1980, when Gene Corrigan succeeded Moose Krause as athletic director. The Irish football program, not far from its 1977 national championship, thrived as an independent. Access to bowl games came early and often. The introduction of the Bowl Championship Series (BCS), however, was an unforeseen development. Men's basketball, having made a Final Four appearance in 1978, was riding the crest of success with eight consecutive NCAA tournament appearances from 1974 through 1981 as one of only a handful of independents. It was perhaps a sign of things to come, however, when DePaul, Marquette and Dayton helped form the Great Midwest (soon to become Conference USA), leaving Notre Dame with late-season scheduling difficulties. Additionally, on-the-court struggles, combined with recruiting and television challenges, made the beckoning Big East Conference a perfect fit by the mid-1990s.

In 1980 most of Notre Dame's Olympic sports were fledgling at best. Scholarships were minimal, if not nonexistent, for many Irish sports. Those teams weren't expected to compete for national titles (the perennially successful fencing program was an exception), and there were no budgets to recruit or schedule nationally.

Now, while Notre Dame football intrinsically hasn't changed all that much over these past 23 years, the college football landscape has -- and so has the commitment to Notre Dame's 25 other sports.

As Athletic Director Gene Corrigan and successors thingy Rosenthal and Wadsworth gradually increased the institutional commitment to the various Olympic sports programs, Notre Dame outgrew its independent status. That prompted a move (for most sports except football and men's basketball) to the Midwest City Conference (later the Midwestern Collegiate Conference) in 1982-83. The move created a new series of meaningful goals that included league titles, all-conference honors and guaranteed access to NCAA postseason competition. Suddenly, Irish games took on greater importance when the players knew first place was on the line. And, as Notre Dame further ramped up its institutional commitments, the Irish became the dominant program in the MCC, eventually outgrowing that level of competition.

That dominance and the interest in creating better platforms from which its basketball programs could compete prompted a move to the Big East Conference for the 1995-96 athletic season.

Still, football remained independent. In fact, Notre Dame officials went out of their way to suggest to the Big East that the league should not accept the Irish with the expectation that the University would bring its football program into the league at some later date. Even when Miami and Virginia Tech opted last summer to leave the Big East for the ACC and many in the media suggested that Notre Dame join the Big East for all sports, commissioner Mike Tranghese made it quite clear: That question had been asked many times, but the Notre Dame response had been a consistent "no."

It is worth noting that Notre Dame has achieved at the highest level during its time in the Big East. The Big East Commissioner's Trophy for all sports now has gone to Notre Dame eight straight years for men and seven straight years for women.

Still, the conversation about the prospect of Notre Dame football joining a conference never completely goes away.

Some of the current dialogue is fueled by concerns about Notre Dame's future access to the postseason through the BCS. Though Notre Dame has been a signatory to that agreement since its inception in 1998, there are no guarantees where the Irish will fit once the current contract expires after the 2005 season. In fact, Notre Dame could even be relegated to the status of current non-BCS conferences that in 2003 required a team to reach a top-six ranking in the final BCS poll to guarantee an invitation to one of the top four bowls (currently Sugar, Orange, Fiesta and Rose). Champions from the Big Ten, Big 12, Pacific-10, ACC, Big East and SEC all currently are guaranteed BCS participation -- to go with two at-large invitees.

In six seasons prior to 2003, Notre Dame three times qualified for the BCS pool. It went to a top tier game just once (2000 for the Fiesta Bowl), while its 9-2 and 10-2 records in '98 and '02 sent the team only to the second-tier Gator Bowl. In addition, Irish qualification criteria have become increasingly tougher. In 1998, Notre Dame needed only eight wins and a BCS top-12 ranking to make the pool; by '99 that spot required nine wins. White can only hazard a guess about where Notre Dame will fit into future BCS puzzles.

Meanwhile, those who argue for a college football playoff can't ever seem to push that format past the starting line, particularly as far as university presidents are concerned (the last failed attempt came this past July when a BCS Presidential Oversight Committee again shunned the idea). No matter how the postseason plays out, it's a long way from '94, for example, when Notre Dame landed in the Fiesta Bowl with a 6-4-1 record, a mark that today would be nowhere near BCS-quality.

All major conference members are handed BCS access, a package of secondary bowl options, an eight-game league schedule and a television package through their conference affiliation. At Notre Dame, all those areas are left for the institution -- and White in particular -- to negotiate.

The conference conversation also includes Notre Dame's position on television and scheduling, two areas that have been critical in differentiating the Irish (especially in recruiting). Notre Dame fans have been spoiled by unprecedented exposure provided to Irish football since the University signed the first of three five-year agreements with NBC Sports to nationally televise home games. With ABC, CBS and ESPN taking turns showing road games, Notre Dame finished the 2003 regular season with a remarkable streak of 136 consecutive football games televised by one of those four networks.

Like the BCS agreement, the current deal with NBC runs through the '05 season. If Notre Dame and NBC opt not to extend the relationship, informal inquiries from other television heavyweights strongly suggest there would be multiple suitors interested in filling any potential void. However, conference membership could eliminate a stand-alone deal for the Irish and could limit Irish exposure on a comparative basis.

With no shortage of teams interested in playing the Irish, the primary scheduling challenge is to create an equitable mix of home and road games, in addition to the guesswork involved in projecting future strength of various programs. This year's exceptionally tough schedule, for example, was put together a decade ago when most of the opponents were significantly less formidable than their 2003 counterparts. On the other hand, any discussion of football entering conference play would have to resolve current schedules now under contract and extending almost a decade into the future.

The financial benefits of football independence remain obvious -- the Irish currently do not share any bowl revenue (even when they play in a Big East-connected bowl), nor do they split anything from the NBC television contract. Several years ago the college football world stopped paying television rights fees to visiting teams, so NBC does not pay opponents that come to Notre Dame Stadium, nor do the Irish receive anything from televised road appearances. Those two factors alone suggest conference membership would come at a financial cost to Notre Dame athletics.

Yet another point of interest for Notre Dame, as the conference discussion moves forward, remains an analysis of the non-athletic characteristics of the institutions for any potential affiliation. Do their educational missions, their academic standards, even their sizes, dovetail with Notre Dame's?

The Big Ten's academic consortium (the internationally respected Committee for Institutional Cooperation) drew plenty of attention on the Irish campus, based on the shared library systems, student exchange programs and other potential benefits to graduate and research programs.

The Big Ten, for example, includes 10 large land-grant, state institutions (plus smaller, private Northwestern). The ACC lists privates Duke and Wake Forest (and soon-to-be Boston College and Miami), plus publics North Carolina, Virginia and Georgia Tech, which resemble and operate much like privates. The Big East features a handful of private, religiously affiliated institutions such as Villanova, Providence, Seton Hall, Saint John's and Georgetown, yet none of those play Division I-A football.

If Notre Dame's current footprint is deemed to be somewhat Midwest based on geography alone, might an ACC relationship expand that footprint to the entire Eastern Seaboard, where one-third of the nation's television audience exists? Would the Irish be better off as one of 12 (in the Big Ten) or one of 14 (assuming the ACC, now at 12, would add an extra school after Notre Dame)?

Another benefit of conference membership might be an invitation to the prestigious AAU (Association of American Universities), a group of 62 top research institutions -- including, for example, all 11 in the Big Ten, four in the ACC (Duke, Virginia, North Carolina, Maryland) and three in the Big East (Rutgers, Syracuse, Pittsburgh).

Maybe the most complicated -- and yet fundamental -- question remains this one: How much do or should academic and administrative issues measure against athletic components?

It's worth noting that Notre Dame lobbied unsuccessfully for Big Ten membership a number of times up through the middle of the Knute Rockne years, before settling on a course of independence now considered sacred to some.

Some 80 years later, might ever-changing conditions be ripe to address the complex subject of conference membership again?

There's a difficult decision in the offing.

Stay tuned."

* * *

John Heisler is an associate athletic director at Notre Dame.

(January 2004)

<Page 1 of 1>


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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:11 am 
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So ND is keeping a finger stuck up into the wind.

Here's what our pool should be: when does NBC drop Notre Dame football? That's the driver here.

Notre Dame is kind of a safe Saturday hedge for NBC, really, especially when NBC lost the NFL. Now that the NFL has a Sunday night home on NBC, will anything change? NBC Sports will probably run bigger deficits, which will probably impact the rights they pay for other events. Since they'll fight to keep Olympic coverage, they might want to cheapen the Saturday outlay with run-up events (they already do this to a large degree... they can obviously do more).

Thing is, I believe the current contract runs through 2012. I tend to think things will be kind of stable at levels a little lower than NBC hopes... but I suspect NBC would renew one more time with those numbers. 2020, anyone?


Last edited by pounder on Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:15 pm 
Good point, Pounder. My take too, is that ND will not shut off its options; straddling the fence in the BE is part of this.
ND seemed to have some intrigue with the ACC. Would the ACC ever go to 14 for them?
The NBC contract is a big reason ND stays independent. Money and their fan insistence to say independent drives it.
The key to change Notre Dame's thinking are the conferences. They agree to special terms with ND because of the bowls. Also, while Michigan, So. Cal, etc. continue to offer them huge games into the future, little may change. If ND was left in scheduling to BE and non-bcs 1-As schools, then the arrogant attitude will change.
One of the most notable points, is that before Notre Dame joined the BE for bb and a few other sports, they were insistent that promise of bringing their football program along later was not an option.


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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:20 am 
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Found column in Illinois student paper this weekregarding Notre Dame joining the Big Ten.Can'tget good link.Link to paper is http://media.www.dailyillini.com.

Navigate to sports section and scrolldown.Good luck.



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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:25 am 
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Recent article out of Utah that discusses the impact of tv on conference expansion,and mentions the Big Ten.Can't get good direct link, however link toblogsite,scroll down toarticle entitled "tv rules expansion decisions and click on. Good luck. http://www.utahindependent.com/index.php/ct/10/id/bcecd7f88c90b7a3


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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:25 pm 
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This question may have been answered earlier in this thread, but I’m not going read through 16 some odd pages to find out.

If the Big Ten were to add Notre Dame, would they have to split into two divisions in order to have a championship game?

I know the NCAA requires that a conference have at least 12 teams before it can have a championship game, but is it written in the rulebook that a conference MUST divide into divisions in order to hold a conference championship game?

To me, splitting into two divisions rather then having a single 12 team division would really hamstring the Big Ten. Granted there are some benefits to having two divisions, but the Big Ten has so many rivalries, it would be hard to hold every one of those match-ups each and every year with a two division format. The Big Ten didn’t even accomplish that with its current scheduling format (where each team has two permanent rivals). Even if the Big Ten used a scheduling format similar to the ACC, it would be hard to cover every rivalry, and insure that each is played every year.

That’s why I think the Big Ten, if it added Notre Dame (or someone else) should not sub-divide into divisions. Instead, they should just give each team five traditional rivalries, whom they play every year. Then, each team will play 3 of its 6 non-rival opponents, in rotation. The difference between this scheduling format and one involving two divisions is that, with two divisions, if team A and team B play every year, and so do team B and team C, then team A and team C must also play every year, whether they are rivals or not. So, if Michigan State played Indiana for the Brass Spittoon every year, and Michigan State played Michigan every year, Indiana would also have to play Michigan, though there isn’t much of a rivalry between those two teams. Under my scheduling format, Michigan State could play Michigan and Indiana every year, but Michigan and Indiana wouldn’t necessarily have to play.

If the Big Ten gave each team the permanent rivalry games I’ve listed below, then every permanent rivalry under the current scheduling format would still be played every year, as well as every single trophy game or huge rivalry game that isn’t already played every year already (such as the Little Brown Jug, and the Illi-buck). However, some games listed below had to be added purely out of necessity, rather then because there is a huge rivalry between those teams (Ohio State-Minnesota and Iowa-Purdue, for example).

ILLINOIS’S RIVALS
Northwestern
Indiana
Ohio State
Purdue
Iowa

INDIANA’S RIVALS
Illinois
Purdue
Michigan State
Notre Dame
Ohio State

IOWA’S RIVALS
Minnesota
Wisconsin
Northwestern
Illinois
Purdue

MICHIGAN’S RIVALS
Michigan State
Ohio State
Minnesota
Notre Dame
Penn State

MICHIGAN STATE’S RIVALS
Michigan
Penn State
Indiana
Notre Dame
Wisconsin

MINNESOTA’S RIVALS
Iowa
Wisconsin
Michigan
Penn State
Ohio State

NORTHWESTERN’S RIVALS
Illinois
Purdue
Notre Dame
Wisconsin
Iowa

NOTRE DAME’S RIVALS
Michigan State
Purdue
Michigan
Indiana
Northwestern

OHIO STATE’S RIVALS
Michigan
Penn State
Illinois
Indiana
Minnesota

PENN STATE’S RIVALS
Michigan State
Ohio State
Minnesota
Michigan
Wisconsin

PURDUE’S RIVALS
Indiana
Northwestern
Illinois
Notre Dame
Iowa

WISCONSIN’S RIVALS
Iowa
Minnesota
Northwestern
Michigan State
Penn State

As for the championship game, it could simply match the teams with the two best records in the conference. In case of a tie for the second best record, the first tie-breaker could be head-to-head record between the tied teams (obviously). If that doesn’t decide anything, then any team involved in the tie who have not lost to the team with the best record would be placed ahead of any team who has lost to the #1 team. That way, any team that has beaten or has not played the #1 team in the conference during the regular season would get a shot at them in the championship game ahead of any team who has already lost to the #1 team. If that doesn’t decide anything, then use whatever tiebreakers are currently in use (or have a log throwing contest :) ).


Last edited by bmf51 on Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:17 pm 
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This is a very unique and intriguing idea...I like it! It's especially hard to divide the Big Ten by geography if Notre Dame is the 12th team, doesn't work especially clean East/West or North/South. I can't find anything about a division requirement, so hopefully something like this could be brought under consideration.


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 Post subject: Big10/NotreDame thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:25 am 
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When a conference goes to 12 and implements divisional play, some or all schools have to give a bit on scheduling. It happened in the SEC, Big 12, and the ACC. For example, in the ACC, Wake Forest may not play North Carolina every year, and Duke may not play NC State every year.
As to the Big 10 going to 12 and having divisional play, indeed there are multiple schemes that could be used. All factor in geography one way or another.
The last couple of posters on this noted some pertinent points.
While Notre Dame is having a dismal season in fb, there are no messages, officially, that they are changing their minds about conference membership. Perhaps two or three more struggling seasons, consecutively, will nudge them.
While most assume Notre Dame, if they did opt for conference membership with fb, it would be the Big 10. However, the Big East could be a consideration if they can carry their TV package and site schedule into a BE arrangement.
The Big Ten will not cut side deals with Notre Dame per revenue. The Big East could offer more flexibility on this. However, Notre Dame expecting side deals and special considerations has been their successful operational style all along. They would be wise to seriously explore their options before such options may become more narrow.
The Big 10 really needs to look elsewhere for a #12 if it is important to them now. Then, Notre Dame will have the option of staying independent or the Big East, pending there are no other major shifts.


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