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 Post subject: Pac-10 Possibilities
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 2:09 pm 
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DawgNDuck fan, you should stick with teams you know, like the Dawgs who schedule an embarrassingly easy ooc schedule (I'm married to a Dawg so I know who they schedule).

Unlike UT, UGa has a lot of pressure to play in-state rival GT every single year. It's not our fault that GT has stunk up the joint for awhile. If Texas had to play UTEP every single year, you would see my point. Plus, unlike UT, who has more $$'s than they know what to do with, UGa has a fixed budget. This shows with our athletic department's requirement of playing 6 home games (do not forget the thingytail Party in Jax, which is somewhat similar to your Red River Battle in Dallas.)every year. We would play more interesting games, but the opponents for those interesting games like home and homes, which can't be done ordinarily because of the requirement. Notice I said "ordinarily." When the NCAA came out with its twelve game schedule, we actually have beefed up the schedule. We have F$U on tap soon because of the 12 game schedule. UF is the exact same way. There is also some talk of UGa dropping Tech for awhile. That also would enable us to schedule
better opponents.

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UT has traditionally scheduled one of the toughest ooc schedules. Mack Brown thinned it out a little in his early years, but there are still some decent teams. Prior to the Big 12, there was OU every year. I have up to 92 handy:
84 Auburn (Bo Jackson), Penn St., OU
85 Missouri, Stanford, OU
86 same
87 Auburn, BYU, Oregon St., OU
88 BYU, New Mexico, North Texas, OU
89 Colorado, Penn St., OU
90 Penn St., Colorado (ntl champs), OU
91 Mississippi St., Auburn, OU
92 Mississippi St., Syracuse, North Texas

Then
95 Notre Dame, Virginia, ?
96 New Mexico St., Notre Dame, Virginia
97 Rutgers, UCLA, Rice
98 New Mexico St., UCLA, Rice
99 N. Carolina St., Stanford, Rice, Rutgers
00 UL-Lafayette, Stanford, Houston
01 New Mexico St., North Carolina, Houston
02 North Texas, North Carolina, Houston, Tulane

That's nice, but I was referring to Texas' recent history, namely since Mack Brown has been coach. Mackovic scheduled very well.

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They have had Arkansas the last two years. They have Ohio St. coming up. Name a BCS school other than Notre Dame or perhaps Tennessee who has scheduled as well.

I've got two for ya: USC and Washington!!!


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 Post subject: Pac-10 Possibilities
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 7:13 pm 
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Look at the geography of the region. There are no schools in WA, OR, CA, or AZ that are really logical choices for membership. In the states due east of the region, despite tremendous growth, there a lack of density and population in place to put their programs in a league with the west coast. That's a lot of open space between the coast states and the bulk of the US population, states with little connection with the Pacific region. So why expand?



Actually, lets look at historical state population trends in the west, and pay close attention to the state populations of Arizona, Oregon, and Washington and when they entered the Pac 10, and how close Utah and Nevada are currently to the populations of those states when those current Pac 10 schools entered the Pac 10:

Utah: 1950 = 688,862; 1960 = 890,627; 1970 = 1,059,273; 1980 = 1,461,037; 1990 = 1,722,850; 2000 = 2,233,169; 2003 Estimate = 2,351,467

Arizona: 1950 = 749,587; 1960 = 1,302,161; 1970 = 1,770,900; 1980 = 2,718,215;1990 = 3,665,228; 2000 = 5,130,632; 2003 Estimate = 5,580,811

Nevada: 1950 = 160,083; 1960 = 285,278; 1970 = 488,738; 1980 = 800,493; 1990 = 1,201,833; 2000 = 1,998,257; 2003 Estimate = 2,241,154

Idaho: 1950 = 588,637; 1960 = 667,191; 1970 712,567; 1980 = 943,935; 1990 = 1,006,744; 2000 = 1,293,953; 2003 Estimate = 1,366,332

Oregon: 1950 = 1,521,341; 1960 = 1,768,687; 1970 = 2,091,385; 1980 = 2,633,105; 1990 = 2,842,321; 2000 = 3,421,399; 2003 Estimate = 3,559,811

Washington: 1950 = 2,378,963; 1960 = 2,853,214; 1970 = 3,409,169; 1980 = 4,132,156; 1990 = 4,866,692; 2000 = 5,894,121; 2003 Estimate = 6,131,445

Do you notice something here. In 1979, both Arizona and Arizona State both joined the Pac 10. In 1980, the closest census year, the population of Arizona was 2,718,215. As of 2003, Utah has a population of 2,351,457 and Nevada's population is 2,241,154. SLC and Las Vegas now are very similar size metro areas to that of Phoenix then. Getting very very very close to what the population of Arizona was when ASU and U of A entered the Pac 10 from, what was that conference called then, oh yeah, the Western Athletic Conference (formerly aligned with BYU, Utah, CSU, Wyoming, UNM, etc).

Look at Oregon. During the last century, I believe Oregon and Oregon State were aligned with Pac 10 schools for awhile, then were brief members of the WAC, then in the late 1950's/early 1960's became aligned again with the Pac 10. In 1960, the closest census year, Oregon had a population of 1,768,867, which is currently smaller than both Utah and Nevada's population as I have listed.

Washington (U W) has always been aligned with the Pac 10 schools. I believe WSU was aligned with the Oregon schools for awhile with the WAC very briefly. I could be wrong on this. But notice in 1950, the state of Washington's population of 2,378,963 is very similar to the current populations of Utah and Nevada.

I still believe that the only way that the Pac 10 expands to 12 is if the Big 10 does it, and they need a championship game to stay competitive. That may be along ways away. Some think it will never happen. I would never say never. But as far as the arguement of Utah and Nevada not having enough population, or are too sparse, I don't think that holds any water, based on the observation above. Both Utah and Nevada have very comparable populations to Arizona and Oregon when those schools in those states either joined or rejoined the Pac 10. The Pac 10 may still prefer CU and UT to UU and BYU, but I still say that UU and BYU are the most likely 3rd and 4th best choices for the Pac 10 if they do indeed ever decide to expand. Sparse population of Utah and Nevada and even Idaho in time (the most nearest states to the Pac-10 footprint) have nothing to do with it IMO.


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 Post subject: Pac-10 Possibilities
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 12:16 am 
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Colorado's only true rival, IMO, is Nebraska, but they are developing a rivalry with Texas as well. That's it, basically. Colorado has nothing in common with KSU, KU, ISU, etc. In fact, Colorado is the lone western outpost of the Big 12.


I don't agree with this. CU has had 55 years with the Big 8 schools. NU is the biggest rival of CU, that is true. I would say there is also a strong rivalry between CU and OU. CU also has somewhat of a rival in Missouri. Does anyone here remember the 5th Down controversy on Farout Field in 1990 when CU ended up sharing the National Championship with Georgia Tech? That has quite a few people in Columbia still embroiled to this day. KSU has been rival to CU as of late, as both have been taking the Big 12 North title the most as of late. KU has a history of upsetting CU. CU may have a history with some of the Pac 10 teams, but their longest history by far is with the Big 8 teams and have emerging rivals with the new Texas schools. I wouldn't just only include UT in there as their only new rival. Look at where Lubbock is located. Take I-27 north to Amarillo, then take U.S. Highway 287 north. You will find that this highway is a major transportation corridor between the Texas Panhandle and Denver as well as feeding traffic from Dallas to Denver. There has been talk of making it a new Interstate someday. To me Texas Tech is also a western outpost and CU has had some really tough games with TTU.

Colorado is a mountain state and yes likes to identify with other Mountain and Western states. But its also a Great Plains state. It borders Nebraska, Kansas, and Oklahoma and is not far from bordering Texas. Its boundaries are farther east than New Mexico's, Wyoming's and Montana's. It is the most Midwesternish/Great Plains state in the Mountain West states. Draw a line along the front range, and you will find that about 1/2 of Colorado is in the Great Plains and technically, all of the Front Range metropolitan population centers are technically in the Great Plains, though on the foothills of the mountains. Colorado is hardly out of place in the Big 12 and nor is it hardly out of place with grouping with Great Plains states.

I just drove back going from west to east on I-70 from Green River, UT all the way to Indianapolis before turning north to return home to Michigan when I returned home from my vacation. When I drove through North Dakota and through Montana and began hitting Mountains between Billings and Bozeman on the way out, the transition from Great Plains and Mountains was not too dramatic, it was very gradual. When I drove out of the mountains just west of Denver and descended out of the mountains out into the Denver metro area and into the Great Plains, which began in Denver, it was very dramatic. I was shocked as I drove east of Denver on I-70 and into western Kansas, how there was crops planted all the way from the east side of Denver all the way into Kansas and continous all the way to the Appallachian. Not the same crops all the way to the Appallachians, but pretty much the same crops in eastern Colorado as that of Kansas. This shocked me, as the drive between Lincoln, NE and Denver, CO on I-80 and I-76 has a lot of high-plains sagebrush ranch lands. There was hardly any sage-brush that I saw on I-70. It automatically looked like Kansas just east of Denver. Kansas and Central Illinois don't really look too different. So to me, Colorado really seems to look a lot like Kansas in the east and that's nearly 1/2 their state.

As far as this series with Oregon and other Pac 10 schools. Well Nebraska has actually played U Minnesota more than it has Oklahoma State, and Nebraska and OSU have been in the same conference since 1957. The Nebraska/Minnesota series actually has taken on the look of a rivalry way back when Minnesota was a national power in the pre-1960 eras. Nebraska has never been in the same conference with Minnesota. Nebraska also has a significant series with U Illinois and U Iowa. That doesn't necessarily mean that Nebraska is more of a Big 10 team than a Big 8/Big 12 team.


Last edited by sportsgeog on Sun Jul 18, 2004 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Pac-10 Possibilities
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:37 pm 
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I wouldn't be surprised if you took a survey of CU fans and after Nebraska, Texas was considered their 2nd biggest rival and they had trouble naming a 3rd. Economically and socially, they are much more tied to the west coast than the great plains. I know they were overwhelmingly in favor of joining the Pac 10 7-10 years ago when the bid was outstanding.

As for UW and USC on the Dawg schedule, great! There was a lot of interest when Clemson got back on in the 12 game years. The steady diet of New Mexico St., Arkansas St. was getting old. I will say that Ohio St. and LSU do have in-state non-BCS schools to beat up on and Georgia doesn't.


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 Post subject: Pac-10 Possibilities
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 10:04 pm 
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I wouldn't be surprised if you took a survey of CU fans and after Nebraska, Texas was considered their 2nd biggest rival and they had trouble naming a 3rd. Economically and socially, they are much more tied to the west coast than the great plains. I know they were overwhelmingly in favor of joining the Pac 10 7-10 years ago when the bid was outstanding.


I bet not. I think they would also find OU and the Kansas schools as rivals. Missouri also thinks of them as a rival. Your right, they are a western state. But 55 years with Nebraska, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, and Iowa State, + Oklahoma and Oklahoma State, and the 4 new Texas schools, and thats a hard break from tradition. There's only been 1 school with the last 30 years who has broken from a very traditional conference to join another and that is Arkansas leaving the SWC to join the SEC. Probably because they saw the instability of the SWC and took an opportunity to join the SEC when they had the chance. The question will be when CU and UT are approached again by the Pac 10, if they ever are, is the Big 12 unstable and what does the Pac 10 offer us that is more advantageous? The Big 12 teams do offer closer counterparts more than the Pac 10. If Colorado State came along with CU to the Pac 10, that would be its closest conference counterpart. Otherwise, Tucson which is nearly 1,000 miles away, is the closest Pac 10 team to Boulder. NU is 500 miles away, KSU is also 500 miles away. KU is 575. Mizzou is 750, Texas Tech is 575 miles away, Iowa State is 725 miles away, OU is 700 miles away, OSU is 650 miles away, Baylor is about 1,000 miles away, and UT and TAMU are both about 1,100 miles away.

So Colorado would actually be closer to 8 of the other 11 Big 12 schools than the closest Pac 10 school. I don't know what Colorado's limits are with their travel budget, but as far as geographic closeness, The Big 12 makes more sense.

I also wonder if the people that took that poll were interested in seeing CU go to the Rose Bowl. Now that we have the BCS and both Nebraska and Oklahoma have both played in the Rose Bowl, I wonder if that would make them seem less urgent of a need to be in a conference that would line them up with the Rose Bowl?

I still don't see it a clear decision that if the Pac 10 offered membership again that they would take it, just like they turned it down before, those same reasons may be still there, and may be reinforced more so now that the Big 12 has been in existance for about a decade now. At the time that they were offered Pac 10 membership, the Big 8 was seen as a small market and the Big 12 wasn't quite invented yet, which is now a big market league. If they are already in a big market league with 2 or 3 strong rivals, why would they leave to play speculated rivals that they don't play every year?


Last edited by sportsgeog on Sun Jul 18, 2004 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Pac-10 Possibilities
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 7:29 am 
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The 2 schools that the Pac-10 contacted in the past were Texas and Colorado. Texas does seem like a stretch at this point and adding them and say, Texas A&M would be tough as well.

Colorado might have tarnished their reputation some of late.

But had their status remained the same, I could see a better 1-2 punch being the invitation of BYU and Colorado if 10 were ever an option. Air force has the acedemics and would be a nice fit, but in today's big business of college sports, they just don't add the market or followign a conference wants.

I expect them to sit at 10.

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 Post subject: Pac-10 Possibilities
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 10:18 am 
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I never saw it in the media, but I did see posts on the internet (I think Pounder also said the same thing) that CU did NOT tell the Pac 10 no. CU said yes and the Pac 10 said, "bring Texas with you and you're welcome in. Don't come alone." I'm not sure if I believe it or not, but it is plausible.

I think the distances indicate part of the looseness of the CU ties to the Big 12. Nobody is particularly close. I hadn't realized the Pac 10 was that far.

Texas has those same issue with distance to the Pac 10. The furtherest Big 10 school, Penn St. is as close the UCLA and USC and closer than everyone but Arizona and Arizona St. There are 10 Big 10 schools closer to Austin than all but the 2 Arizona schools in the Pac 10. If the Presidents (and the Pac 10 and Big 10 presidents claim this the most) are serious about the student-athlete and their time, Texas leaving the Big 12 for the Pac 10 or Big 10 will not happen.


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 Post subject: Pac-10 Possibilities
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:29 pm 
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Distances to other schools would be a concern for Texas, but nothing compares to UT's desire to be with its biggest rivals. Texas will not be in a conference without Oklahoma and Texas A&M. I'm currently employed at UT and can tell you that no other schools come up in the discussion of sports in Austin. Texas football has a fanatical following, but with regards to other sports, only the OU and TAMU games matter (with a few other exceptions that vary from one season to the next).

I've never understood the reasoning behind saying that the Pac10 would expand if the Big10 did. (Of course I never thought Boston College would ever be considered for the ACC...) My guess is that the Pac10 stays at 10 for a long time. (Although plane tickets from Denver to Pac10 cities have got to be cheaper than tickets to Big12 cities.)


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 Post subject: Pac-10 Possibilities
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:58 pm 
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Dang, bullet, I have no word that Colorado ever said yes. I guess there's a piece of logic saying that the Pac wasn't going to go with 11, so that might have happened, but I never heard anything definitive.

That could also explain the supposed Utah flirtation.

Colorado has been assaulted with the same Californication as the rest of the west, but there are also strong ties with Texas (energy and mining interests) economically. Other things being equal, they could go either way. 55 years does matter, however.


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