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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:31 pm 
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Why was UM very much against the Big10 bringing in MSU? In addition, has the Big10 ever 'considered' any other school besides ND for expansion (before all the conference movement in the late 80s until now). Or has any other school considered the Big10.

Just curious.

SportsGeog - You seem to know alot about that area, any thoughts?

Mods - Please feel free to move


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:26 pm 
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As far as expansion, during the mid-90s expansion rush, the Big 10, after ND said no (the first time) studied adding Missouri, Kansas and Rutgers and looked at 12 and 14 team models. This was publically stated by Big 10 officials, not some top secret contingency plan. They, obviously, decided to do nothing. Since then, I have not seen anything official on studies of any other school, although there have been lots of rumours.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 7:21 am 
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Quote:
Why was UM very much against the Big10 bringing in MSU? In addition, has the Big10 ever 'considered' any other school besides ND for expansion (before all the conference movement in the late 80s until now). Or has any other school considered the Big10.
Here are the results of some newspaper searches on this topic. Most of the URLs get truncated below. In cases of truncation, you will need to copy and paste from the "http:" to the next blank space. Also the :D needs to be replaced with a ":" followed directly by a "D", without the quotes.

- 1913 -- Nebraska & Notre Dame -- BIG NINE" TO STAY.:Western Conference Opposed to Admitting Other Colleges. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 7, 1913. pg. S1, 1 pgs CHICAGO, Dec. 6. -- Delegates to the Western Intercollegiate Conference today decided it was not expedient to enlarge the conference, thus disposing of the applications of Nebraska and Notre Dame for membership (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/nytimes/100290549.html?did=100290549&FMT=ABS&FMTS=AI&date=Dec+7,+1913&desc=+BIG+NINE%22+TO+ STAY )

- 1945 – Pitt Reported Applying For Big Ten Post, The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jun 27, 1945. pg. 8, 1 pgs, Cleveland, Ohio, June 26 (U.P.). -- The University of Pittsburgh has applied for membership in the Western Conference and the Big Ten is holding the request under advisement, the Cleveland Press said today. (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost_historical/214475242.html?did=214475242&FMT=ABS&FMTS=AI&date=Jun+27,+1945&de sc=Pitt+Reported+Applying+For+Big+Ten+Post )

- 1947 -- Michigan State (MICHIGAN STATE BID TABLED BY BIG NINE:Athletic Chiefs Block Return of Western Conference to 10-Member Status, New York Times (1857-Current File). New York, N.Y.: May 31, 1947. pg. 9, 1 pgs, CHICAGO, May 30 (AP) -- The Western Conference, prodded by a membership bid from Michigan State College, today asserted it had "no disposition to enlarge at this time." The sentiment was expressed in an informal poll of Big Nine athletic directors after President John Hannah of Michigan State personally had backed his college's long standing bid for membership. (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/nytimes/87536163.html?did=87536163&FMT=ABS&FMTS=AI&date=May+31,+1947&desc=MICHIGAN+STATE+BI D+TABLED+BY+BIG+NINE )

- 1990 – West Virginia UPDATE:[FINAL Edition 2] USA Today (Pre-1997 Fulltext). Arlington, Va.: May 9, 1990. pg. 11.C , Also: West Virginia has talked with the Big Ten about joining the conference if it decides to expand its membership, Mountaineers athletic director Ed Pastilong said Tuesday. (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/USAToday/55993868.html?did=55993868&FMT=ABS&FMTS=FT&date=May+9,+1990&desc=UPDATE )

- 1990 -- PITT TALKED TO BIG TEN Date: June 9, 1990, Publication: Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (PA) Page: C2. Pitt President Wesley Posvar confirmed he held informal conversations with presidents at Big Ten schools about the possibility of joining the conference. The announcement came at the end of the week in which the Big Ten voted to Penn State as the 11th member. The conference also declared a four-year moratorium on further expansion. In a statement, Posvar said: "The University of Pittsburgh, with all the Big Ten and Penn State, are members of the American Association of Universities. (http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=PG&p_theme=pg&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_text_search-0=&quo t;PITT%20TALKED%20TO%20BIG%20TEN"&s_dispstring=PITT%20TALKED%20TO%20BIG%20TEN%20AND%20date(06/01/1990%20to%2006/11/1 990)&p_field_date-0=YMD_date&p_params_date-0=date:B,E&p_text_date-0=06/01/1990%20to%2006/11/1990&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_ date:D&xcal_useweights=no )

- 1990 – Pittsburgh Miami Herald, The (FL) - June 10, 1990, PITT PONDERS JOINING BIG TEN, The University of Pittsburgh has been exploring the possibility of following intrastate rival Penn State into the Big Ten conference, according to Pitt's president. Wesley Posvar confirmed Friday he has held informal conversations with his counterparts at Big Ten schools about joining the conference. The Big Ten admitted Penn State as the 11th member this week and declared a four-year moratorium on further expansion. (http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?s_site=miami&p_multi=MH|&p_product=MH&p_theme=realcities&p_action=search&p _maxdocs=200&p_text_search-0=PITT%20AND%20PONDERS%20AND%20JOINING%20AND%20BIG%20AND%20TEN&s_dispstring=PITT%20PONDERS%20J OINING%20BIG%20TEN%20AND%20date(06/10/1990%20to%2006/10/1990)&p_field_date-0=YMD_date&p_params_date-0=date:B,E&p_text_dat e-0=06/10/1990%20to%2006/10/1990&p_perpage=10&p_sort=_rank_:D&xcal_ranksort=4&xcal_useweights=yes )

- 1990 -- The Daily Oklahoman - June 28, 1990 NU Consults Big Ten, But Move Unlikely OMAHA, Neb. (AP) _ Nebraska athletic director Bob Devaney sent out a feeler to the Big Ten Conference last week after reports that Oklahoma would consider an offer to leave the Big Eight for the Southwest Conference. But OU and NU officials say the Sooners aren't likely to move, and Devaney says the Huskers aren't, either. Even if they were, they would have to wait out the Big Ten's four-year moratorium on further expansion talks.""I can't see it unless... (http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives )

- 1990 -- The Milwaukee Journal - December 21, 1990, Expansion is on hold until 1994 Rutgers files 75-page report in bid to become 12th conference member -- expansion until 1994, despite reports that Rutgers University is seeking to become its 12th member, conference officials say. "There is no expansion being considered for four years," said Steven Beering, chairman of the 11 university presidents who form the Council of Ten, the conference's ruling body.reports that Rutgers had sent a report to the Big... (http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives )

- 1991 – Rutgers “Before joining the Big East for football in 1991 and all sports in 1995, Rutgers applied for membership to the ACC and Big Ten.”, 05/14/03 - Posted 11:48:16 PM from the Daily Record newsroom, ACC expansion may doom Big East, Rutgers, http://www.dailyrecord.com/sports/pro/sports3-rutgers514.htm)

- 1993 – Missouri Journal Star (Peoria, IL) - September 10, 1993, IS MISSOURI NEXT BIG TEN MEMBER?>SCHOOL IS SHOWING INTEREST, BUT IRISH MAY BE FIRST CHOICE, The Big Ten Conference is welcome to Missouri. Member of the Big Eight have been blatantly pushing Missouri's advantages if the Big Ten ever chooses to expand to 12 teams (and can't lure Notre Dame). "Obviously, I'm not going to have a vote in it whatsoever," Missouri football coach Bob Stull said this week, deferring to chancellor Charles Kiesler and athletic director Dan Devine. (http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=JS&p_theme=js&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&s_dispstring=Big%20T en%20AND%20date(9/10/1993%20to%209/10/1993)&p_field_date-0=YMD_date&p_params_date-0=date:B,E&p_text_date-0=9/10/1993%20to %209/10/1993&p_field_advanced-0=&p_text_advanced-0=("Big%20Ten")&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:A&xcal_useweights =no )

- 1993 – Missouri The Kansas City Star - September 12, 1993, MU's chancellor defuses Big Ten issue Kiesler reaffirms loyalty to Big Eight in letter to commissioner. COLUMBIA - In an attempt to douse criticism for its alleged interest in the Big Ten Conference, Missouri Chancellor Charles Kiesler on Saturday distributed a copy of a letter he sent Friday to Big Eight Commissioner Carl James. In the closing paragraph, Kiesler wrote: "I will always support those actions which I determine are in the best interest of the university. I believe that involves continuing our enthusiastic and strong support of the Big Eight. " After reading that... (http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?s_site=kansascity&p_multi=KC|&p_product=KC&p_theme=realcities&p_action=sea rch&p_maxdocs=200&p_text_search-0=MU's%20AND%20chancellor%20AND%20defuses%20AND%20Big%20AND%20Ten&s_dispstring=MU's%20cha ncellor%20defuses%20Big%20Ten%20AND%20date(02/29/2003%20to%2002/29/1992)&p_field_date-0=YMD_date&p_params_date-0=date:B,E &p_text_date-0=02/29/2003%20to%2002/29/1992&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&xcal_useweights=no )


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:52 am 
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Thanks Cybercat. Where did you dig up all this stuff? ;)

I had always heard rumors that Pitt wanted to get into the Big10, but didn't realize it was as early as 1945.



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:44 am 
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Quote:
Thanks Cybercat. Where did you dig up all this stuff? ;)
PantherSC97, I was interested in the topic and decided to do some research. Most newspapers now have an archive service or have another company do it on their behalf. Last time I checked, the New York Times (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/nytimes/advancedsearch.html ) and the Washington Post (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost/search.html ) had the most extensive archives, dating back to the 1800s.

The home pages for other individual US newspapers can be found by going to the following site and doing a search on the paper’s name, state, etc.: http://www.newspapers.com/search.htm

Most of these services provide a free abstract and will provide the entire article for a fee. Here are a couple of the more helpful archive services providing the archives for many newspapers: http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/archiverunbound/newspaper.html & http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives/?p_action=keyword&p_product=NewsLibrary&p_theme=newslibrary2&p_queryname=4000&d_sources=location&d_place=&p_nbid=&p_multi=&s_search_type=keyword&

I just searched on keywords such as “Big Ten”, “expansion”, “membership”, “join”, and the school name. One of the challenges was coming up with a unique URL that would point to the desired results. In some cases, I wasn’t able to do that (e.g., where I referenced http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives -- I noted that this URL is now outdated as well and should be replaced by the nl.newsbank.com URL listed above), so you would need to do a lookup on the keywords from the output to get it back again.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 10:03 am 
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Here are a couple of Houston Chronicle articles with Big 10 expansion references:
Date: SUN 19931205 12/05/93

SWC, Big 8 talks take new tack/Proposed new conference may excludeHouston, Rice

By JONATHAN FEIGEN
Staff
Several Southwest Conference and Big Eight athletic directors have discussed creating a new conference with membership guidelines that could exclude up to four current SWC schools, according to sources close to the discussions.
Guidelines for the new league, several athletic directors predict, would require dramatic budget increases at Houston, Rice, SMU and TCU. The sources, however, said members of the new league would be given several years to meet the requirements.
While discussions are in the preliminary stages, more formal proposals could be prepared within the next 90 days. Membership would be open to all current SWC and Big Eight members and could include Brigham Young, a member of the Western Athletic Conference, sources said.
"There will be a lot more discussion at the NCAA Convention (Jan. 8-12 in San Antonio)," a source involved in the talks said. "A lot of people think this is going to hit in February."
Athletic directors from both conferences said their discussions represent a shift in direction from the SWC/Big Eight merger and alliance talks that university presidents have directed for almost three years.
"This would not be a merger," one athletic director involved in the talks said. "This would be a new league, not a merger of the two."
Several athletic directors involved in the discussions stressed a new league is just one option under consideration. SWC and Big Eight members, they said, still could consider an alliance between the leagues, membership in other leagues or the current format.
"This is a solid option," one athletic director involved in the discussions said. "I certainly wouldn't say it's pie in the sky. It's a viable option."
University of Oklahoma athletic director Donnie Duncan said, "This has been discussed for at least a year now, but just in general terms. I have not seen any formal information about how something of that type would fit together. I consider it in the discussion stage. But it has been discussed and discussed."
When asked if the conversations are more serious than mere speculation, Duncan said, "I would say so. AT&T must be loving it."
SWC commissioner Steve Hatchell said conference members need to keep abreast of national realignment possibilities and be prepared to respond.
"There are a lot of very smart people in both conferences," Hatchell said. "They're obviously going to do what's best. The only thing we can do at this point is to monitor what's going on around the country."
SWC sources said Hatchell has not been asked to help create a new league.
Unlike a merger, creation of a new league would allow schools to establish membership criteria that could include stipulations about budgets, number of sponsored sports , minimum attendance averages and scholarship allotments.
"We haven't spoken a great deal about what the criteria would be, only that there would be criteria," one source said. "As we go through the next two, three or four months, people will get closer to knowing what they want to do on their own campuses. Individuals on the campuses have to start talking first."
Membership criteria likely would be most difficult for the University of Houston to meet. As a state school, the UH athletic department must be self-sustaining. Attendance at Houston football games in 1993 averaged just 19,449, down 19.7 percent from last season and the school's worst since 1986.
"The challenge for us at the University of Houston is to be as strong as possible," UH athletic director Bill Carr said. "We need to get more people involved, to increase our numbers dramatically. There is the possibility of attrition before you get to the table, or even greater attrition after we get to the table . . .
"In my professional opinion, change is imminent," Carr said. "The marketplace is determining a lot of issues. Gender equity and the requirements of gender equity will intensify dramatically."
Rice athletic director Bobby May said he would describe talk of a new league as "speculation."
"People are talking about a lot of things," May said. "As far as any specifics, that just hasn't come down the pike. I know there is on-going discussions about the future.
"I don't know what the options are," May said. "We want to be involved at the level we're at right now, with I-A membership in a quality league. Beyond that, we're back into the specifics stage again. But once things start, other things could happen quickly."
Much of the talk is driven by speculation that the Big Ten could move to increase its membership.
"Anything you hear right now is all conversation," University of Texas athletic director DeLoss Dodds said. "The conversations are a little warmer right now than a year ago. The thing that makes them warmer is the Big Ten."
When Penn State was made the league's 11th member in 1990, Big Ten presidents ordered a five-year moratorium on further expansion. But expansion plans announced in early 1994 likely would not go into effect until 1995, after the moratorium is over.
Missouri chancellor Charles Kiesler and athletic director Dan Devine have expressed interest in leaving the Big Eight for the Big Ten.
"In the Big Ten there are uniformly high-quality, public-research universities, and that's what we think we are," Kiesler said during the 1993 NCAA Convention. "When we compare ourselves to other universities, we don't do it to the Big Eight. We're much more likely to compare ourselves to the universities in the Big Ten."
Said Devine: "Our pedigree really reads more like a Big Ten pedigree. Academically, we wouldn't have a problem fitting into the Big Ten. We are by nature much more a Big Ten university than we are Big Eight university."
There also is widespread speculation that the Big Ten could consider Kansas , a member of the Big Eight, and Rutgers , a member of the Big East football conference and Atlantic 10 basketball conference.
"The world is on notice," a source familiar with the Big Ten talks said. "The SEC, Big East, ACC and Pac-10 are all exploring options. The Big Ten is talking to Missouri , Rutgers and Kansas and maybe some others. Once you start with one, the house of cards falls."
Big Ten assistant commissioner Mark Rudner said the Big Ten has established a committee to explore expansion but that beyond the moratorium, the league has no expansion timetables.
However, several SWC and Big Eight athletic directors said they are preparing to react quickly to a move from the Big Ten.
"There is a nervousness that everybody ought to be ready to go before (the Big Ten expands) and to have plans as far as what each institution should do," Dodds said. "Every institution has to look at what's best for it based on what's happening nationally. The national picture will cause something to happen in the Southwest Conference.
"We have not a made a decision about what we're going to do or not going to do," Dodds said. "I wouldn't rule anything out. I don't think any decisions have been made by anybody in either of the two conferences."
Duncan also said members of both leagues should prepare in advance to respond quickly to conference realignment. But while he said formation of a new league could become an option, he said he could not rank in order of priority his preference among maintaining an unchanged Big Eight, joining another league or creating a merger or new league with SWC schools.
"My position has been that any possibilities should be considered," Duncan said. "While at the current time there's no reason to think we're going to exercise something different, the events of the last three or four years indicate we better be exploring and thinking. Any options are worthy of consideration."
Asked whether the criteria for membership in a new league would require spending increases for many potential members, Duncan said, "That's what I perceive to be a possibility.
"Every conference establishes criteria, so that obviously would be discussed," Duncan said. "It has not been discussed specifically yet as far as I know."
But Carr said that whatever criteria might be established, UH position in the Houston television market would make it attractive to a new league. Although Texas and Texas A&M control much of the Houston television market, the Nov. 26 Rice-Houston game drew a 9.4 television rating in Houston and 9.0 in Dallas-Fort Worth.
"One thing that's not going to change in the whole deal is that this is the nation's fourth-largest city. That's worth something to somebody," Carr said. "Whatever conferences are created or reconfigured, a place in the nation's fourth-largest city is important for its ability to turn on television sets and drive media interest. We do have that capability."
For current SWC members, membership in a larger league would boost the image of their basketball programs and decrease the threat of football ticket sales lost to opponents. Current Big Eight members would benefit from increased television market share in the face of potential defections.
Although Colorado and BYU are believed to be likely Pac-10 expansion targets should that league wish to respond to Big Ten expansion, several sources noted that both schools recruit heavily in Texas and the Midwest and would prefer membership in a league of former SWC and Big Eight members.
"If we all had our druthers, we'd like to maintain status quo," Hatchell said. "But there are decisions that might be made by others that could change our posture."
.........................................................


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 10:05 am 
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Lopez is sometimes off the wall, so I don't know that I would take his comment about Louisville seriously, but someone was talking about Louisville:

From Houston Chronicle 2/25/94 John Lopez column

Worried look -- This week's semi-merger between the Big Eight and Southwest conferences has a lot of people in other leagues scrambling and worried.
A Pac-10 official acknowledged this week that the league had indeed been looking seriously at Texas and Texas A&M, but now may have to stand pat. Meanwhile, the Big Ten, which has 11 teams (go figure), is changing its plans, too.
The Big Ten was considering Missouri and Texas among others, but now must concentrate only on others. Louisville apparently has taken a big leap in the Big Ten picture.
And the Big East may try to add more teams, too. The conference has a meeting planned for today in Boston, where it will discuss realignment and expansion.
In all likelihood, the biggest move the Big East will make for now will be adding football-only members Temple, West Virginia, Rutgers and Virginia Tech to all sports .



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:18 pm 
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bullet, Thanks for the two articles! Good stuff, although parts of both articles appear to be ungrounded speculation and rumors.

I would be interested in any other articles that board posters run across that document a non-member school talking with the Big Ten about membership -- preferably with someone of authority from one of the institutions providing quotes. Having an associated URL is also helpful. Thanks.


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