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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:01 am 
You can use whatever good ol' boy country club AAU non sense you want.

Facts are facts.

Fact: Notre Dame is Carnegie Doctoral/Research Extensive.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:11 am 
I'm not sure what this is all about, but its known that the Big 10 has tried to court ND as a member, irregardless of them being a member of the AAU or the AAA, or the AARP for that matter. My guess is that if the Big 10 wants a 12th member, they will continue to court ND before any one else.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:01 pm 
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My question to you Bisonfan is this: Why hasn't the Big Ten expanded to 12 already? Why hasn't ND joined if it could receive a potentially huge financial windfall? Read the links Cybercat provided. Schembechler may have a lot of answers on Big Ten expansion that few have thought of so far. Also, Bisonfan, do not forget the economic law of diminishing returns: beyond a certain point, you will get less $$ from something than you put into it. Let me put this into context. Say the SEC decided to punt Vanderbilt and invite Florida State to join and Florida State decides to accepts. You would think that would be huge for the SEC, right?? Not necessarily. Off the top of my head, I can think of 5 or 6 programs from the SEC that recruit Florida pretty hard. You can put an FSU in there, and that's going decrease the current shares of Florida talent that the current 5 or 6 SEC programs are currently getting. In addition, FSU will also take away tv time from other SEC members over time. While tv ratings for the SEC would be off the charts for a few years with FSU, they would gradually decline because of FSU. FSU would also take away bowls from SEC members as well. Now, substitute ND for FSU, and the Big Ten for the SEC in my scenario. That's why I don't think the Big Ten presidents are too high on ND now.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:45 am 
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Interesting thread rehashing some old lines of thought and some interesting new opinions, lol...

Intrigued by Bo's offhand remarks recently, but if you follow Michigan folderol a bit, he has sort of entered a phase where he speaks his mind about any and all things, doesn't have to be afraid of repercussions, as his "legendary" status seems to be enhanced a bit with each passing year, and of course will be appropriately deified in the Michigan pantheon when he passes on, etc...

So I read his remarks as sort of deliberately dissing NotreDame, for all the off-putting vibes it has given the BigTen over the years. Delaney has much the same attitude, although is much more politically-correct about it ("we will not invite again, but would gladly listen if asked")...

BigTen is too smart (and Delaney too shrewd) to ever look west or south. $$$ is everything, so all options revolve to the following:

1. NotreDame
2. NotreDame
3. NotreDame
4. A key prestigious eastern school with a tradition and large tv market. Quality of academics is more important than football or bb prowess.

Let me say that again... QUALITY OF ACADEMICS is paramount. BigTen and Pac10 differ from SEC and BigXII in this way. They are TRULY controlled by the presidents, and the interaction of the faculty and grad students in the Academic Consortium side of things is comprehensive and exhaustive.

For A Big Ten President, sitting at the table with another president from a school he respects is 50% of the entrance requirement.

Now to those who diss NotreDame's academic prowess..
Pure folderol, lol. Notre Dame hierarchy and faculty aspire to be the most prestigious private Catholic institution in the nation in every academic sense. They have committed major resources over the last three decades to upgrading graduate programs, hire the most prestigious faculty based on research stature, and the faculty aspire to be members of the BigTen academic consortium and have publicly voted so. Their doctoral graduates are sought after by other prestigious schools and businesses. Yes, they give lip service to quality undergraduate teaching, and have demonstrated historic prowess in this area, but so does every other quality university.

I don't buy the line of thinking either that the BigTen is hostile to private schools. Most of the great state institutions, Michigan a prime example, has a larger private endowment than many purely private schools--the result of heritage, tradition, and being able to speak the same language as the Stanfords, MITs, and USC's, Northwesterns, and Chicagos, and seeking the very same base of institutional donors, etc.

BigTen will continue to wait for NotreDame as long as it sees there may be an opportunity, and will be extraordinarily patient in doing so. Recent events would seem to indicate prospects may be a little better, now that even recruiting coaches has become a very public problem for the Irish, lol

8-)



Last edited by javaman on Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 4:32 pm 
Some of these huge state-owned universities, of which the Big10 have their share, have special admissions, continuing education, and trial programs for under-prepared and disadvantaged students. There are at least two Ivy League institutions that have (type)Educational Opportunity Programs (EOP). Some of these programs are supported by the federal TRIO (Student Support Services, Talent Search, and Upward Bound). Others, such as ACT 101 in Pennsylvania are state funded. Some schools, including some of the "biggies" in the Big10 have remedial and tutorial services and special academic counseling offices for marginal students. Many of these programs have a primary mission of admitting and retaining minority students. However, the stated criteria directly pertains to these students being at an economic disadvantage, meaning a low family income. Colleges and Universities will supplement these grant programs to expand the pool of students and go beyond their guideline limitations. One may be assured that a school's athletic establishment will use these programs to get high risk students admitted and retained, and further supplement the remediation with their own staff of academic counselors, remediation instructors. The Big schools, and many of the smaller ones, have a huge network of this that the public and much of the internal workings of the school know little about. Whenever one hears about an NCAA investigation or penalty being imposed, in part, because of the activities of an academic counselor, one needs to see in what context in which this happened and even look deeper.
These multipurpose Universities certainly have doctoral programs, many distinguished faculty, excellent academic and athletic facilities, impressive endowments, affiliation with recognized academic associations, and legions of promising and achieving students, and other resources of prestige. They also have their share of underachieving students, special admissions, and all to often, bachelor's level graduates with improved, but still deficient basic skills of what one would expect from a college education. That does not mean many did not have capable survivial skills, cleaverly picking grade inflation courses and professors, and negotiating the maze of huge classes and those with graduate assistants.
A school's sports establishment will also look beyond just students who will play intercollegiate athletics. There are the cognate roles of the band, cheerleaders, etc.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:23 pm 
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Iowa St. adds nothing. Pitt adds nothing. Choices are:
1. Notre Dame
2. tie
Syracuse
Rutgers (if they get their athletic program in order)
Missouri
and maybe Boston College?


Its a been a few years since this conversation has taken place, but my has it made a difference for Rutgers.

Rutgers is now averaging 40,000 a game with tickets in high demand. The potential looks unlimited as its a huge school within loads of professional alumni with big bucks in the local area. They could average 60,000 on a Big Ten schedule, perhaps even more.

Check out the ticket demand. Individual game tickets going for 200 dollars a piece.

http://www.ncaabbs.com/forums/bigeast/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=19640

"On the stubhub.com Web site, individual tickets for the Lousville game were being offered for $199 Monday. That was at the low end. At the high end they were being offered for $589 each.

bids reached $255 Monday for tickets to the Louisville game. The tickets have a face value of $15.

Rutgers, which has not played a home game since Sept. 23, has outgrown its home. The athletic department is looking to add several thousand temporary seats for the Nov. 2 game against Louisville, a Thursday night game to be televised nationally by ESPN at 7:30 p.m.

The Louisville game and the Nov. 25 game against Syracuse are sold out. About 3,000 tickets remain for the game against Connecticut, an ESPN game scheduled for 8 p.m. Sunday"


This would give the Big Ten 12 members for a championship game.

Big Ten East
Rutgers
Penn State
Ohio State
Michigan
Michigan State
Indiana

Big Ten West
Purdue
Northwestern
Illinios
Iowa
Minnesota
Wisconsin

The litmus test for expansion has is can anyone added to the Big Ten provide enough increase in TV market to offset expansion, and I think Rutgers is the one of the few schools out there that can do that.

If Rutgers left the Big East, I would expect that would allow for Temple to get back into the conference.


Last edited by joefather on Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:40 pm 
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Where is Rutgers located? Does it provide the New York market?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:03 am 
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Rutgers is located in Piscataway/New Brunswick New Jersey but also has campuses in Camden and Newark. I guess you can consider it to be 'between' NYC and Philly but much closer to NYC.

I think it's closer to NYC than UConn (in Storrs).

Rutgers is a hot ticket right now because how well they are doing. The bigger question is will they still have this following even when they down again?

NYC loves winners so NYC is following Rutgers now. However, NYC also follows the Big10 and ACC as well. Its a 'fractured' market but if RU can sustain its success it would certainly be attractive to the Big10.

RU is also a high ranking academic institutuion and is a member of the AAU. Also note that RU recently is going through a budget crisis so I am not sure if that would hinder anything.

ND is first for the Big10 (Delany said recently that ND has an open invitation) but if they don't want to wait for them there are other options.


Last edited by panthersc97 on Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:20 am 
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Rutgers is much closer to NYC than UConn, which is over 100 miles away from Manhattan. With an upgraded football program at Rutgers & all of the high school talent in the state in both major sports, they are a sleeping giant giant that looks like it is waking up. With Big Ten membership, they would command tremendous interest from the New York media IMO. They don't get much attention now, but this emergence is just beginning.

If the BCS would like to see Notre Dame join a conference, I think that there is one simple step they could take. Treat them like a member of the Big East Conference, which is what they are. - a member that plays an independent football scheule, but a member nonetheless. One automatic BCS bid reserved for EITHER Notre Dame OR The Big East champ, whichever is higher in the BCS rankings. Simple.

The rationale is that the Big East champ has a 1:8 chance of getting an automatic bid while the next easiest is the Pac Ten at 1:10. The Big Ten is 1:11 & the rest are 1:12. This could be presented as an issue of fairness. It would also reflect the fact that Notre Dame & Big East football work cooperatively already as seen in their mutual bowl tie-ins.

The impact of such a move would be to encourage Notre Dame to play more games against Big East opponents beyond the 3 per year to which they are committed starting in 2010. If Notre Dame knew that it had to beat out the Big East champion for an automatic BCS bid AND that they would be guaranteed a bid even if they were not ranked in the top 8 as currently required, they would be more likely to schedule top Big East schools so that they have the opportunity to go head-to-head against their immediate competition.

The other effect of this would be that it would put Notre Dame in the position of more seriously considering conference membership. If they have to start playing a significant number of conference games anyway, why not go all the way? If they don't like the idea of Big East membership for football, they have the option of going to the Big Ten.

The BCS cannot require schools to join a conference - nor should they be in the position of doing this - but they can create conditions which favor such a move. Notre Dame would be free to retain its independence under these conditions if they so desired. This would also encourage the Big East to increase its membership to a level commensurate with the other BCS conferences. The BCS could stipulate that this package deal would exist only as long as the Big East kept its membership below 10.

The idea that The Big East would turn to Temple to replace Notre Dame is way off the mark. Temple is the worst team in college football & shows no signs of improving. The Big East would look elsewhere before they would even consider Temple in its present state of affairs. Memphis, Central Florida & even TCU would be on their short list long before Temple would.



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:30 am 
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Memphis and UCF are the two main expansion candidates for the big east. However it would probably take more years of doing good for rutgers to get a big ten invite. ND has an invite just will never except it.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 6:54 pm 
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The Big Ten had a study of potential candidates some time within the past ten years. Rutgers came out #1 as the school that was the best "fit" in terms of what makes a school a "Big Ten" school. Obviously their atletic program has not been Big Ten caliber in terms of performance on the field in football & basketball.

I don't think that it will take a lot to convince the Big Ten that Rutgers is ready given that everything else is in place. The critical questions are: 1. Does the Big Ten want to expand? 2. Are they tired of waiting for Notre Dame?

Of course Rutgers would also have questions to answer if the Big Ten came a-knockin'. As attractive as the Big Ten is, does Rutgers want to affiliate with a conference whose center of gravity is 800 miles away in Chicago? Perhaps this could be mitigated by a divisional alignment that would group them with Penn State, Ohio State, Michigan State, Michigan, & Indiana. They've already seen how Penn State has been swallowed up by the Big Ten with no benefit to their basketball program after decades of dominating Eastern football. They've also witnessed the demise of all of the big dreams of ACC expansion. Success on the football field & on the basketball court for Rutgers could make them the toast of the town in NY-NJ. They know the Big East & can better assess their prospects for the future there than they can in the unkowns of the Big East. BC & Syracuse had much more significant motivation when they were approached by the ACC. They really believed that the Big East would lose their BCS standing. That no longer seems to be a factor. All in all, it would be a tough decision for them.

This raises other interesting issues for the Big East. Right now Big East football is the only game in town in the tri-state New York area + West Virginia while Pitt, Cincinnati, Louisville, & South florida all play in someone else's back yard. This makes the 4 members that dominate their states much more valuable than the other four. The Big East can ill afford to lose any of them. The Big East should anticipate the fact that Rutgers & syracuse could both be targets for the Big Ten. They should do everything they can to make Big East more attractive for them. One way to do this would be to identify expansion targets of their own that would strengthen their Northeast geography. If Big East Football splits in a few years & adds the likes of Memphis &/or Central Florida, Rutgers & Syracuse are even more on the geographic fringe of the new conference & big Ten membership would probably offer a better travel situation for them - certainly no worse. But if the conference were to identify targets like UMass others in the Northeast, Rutgers & Syracuse could see reduced travel & stronger rivalries by staying where they are.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:42 pm 
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If Big East Football splits in a few years & adds the likes of Memphis &/or Central Florida, Rutgers & Syracuse are even more on the geographic fringe of the new conference & big Ten membership would probably offer a better travel situation for them - certainly no worse. But if the conference were to identify targets like UMass others in the Northeast, Rutgers & Syracuse could see reduced travel & stronger rivalries by staying where they are.


That is the problem with the southern based Big East expansion theory. If you add ECU, Memphis, USM, UCF to the Big East for 12, what you have is a southern based league with 4 N.E. schools (Pitt, UConn, Syracuse, Rutgers). If you are associating WVU, Louisville, and Cinncinati with the NE schools a sembalance of a NE based conference can be maintained because those schools aren't far from the NE and it helps that Louisville and Cincinnati have a NE feel to them as basketball schools.

I keep hearing the idea of cultivating UMass on here, I don't think the Big East would wait on any non member to move up from 1-AA. Villanova has the best shot, but they need a lot to fall into place.

One alternative the Big East could look at is to grab East Carolina and UAB to bolster its image as an eastern seaboard conference like the ACC is trying to do. The Big East has bowls in Charlotte and Birmingham, so this could make some sense. You are really opening the entire southeast for Big East recruiting with those two.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:57 pm 
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Piscataway is an easy 45 min. drive from Manhatten. I would call that in the NYC area.

That is obviously a huge TV market and would easily increase the Big 10 TV deal enough to justify splitting the money an extra way.

If you then factor in a Big 10 championship game, the TV deal only goes up that much more.


If Rutgers is still undeafeated going into the West Virginia game and if the men's bball team can have a nice season...hell...what would the Big 10 be waiting for?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:27 am 
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Rutgers would be crazy to turn down an invite to the Big10. They would be part of the CIC and also be part of the new 'Big10 channel' that is currently in development. I don't think there would be too much concern over the athletics travel as NYC to Chicago isn't very far by plane. I mean, RU already has to travel to ND, Chicago, Cincy, Milwaukee, and Tampa.

The biggest concern for the Big10 is what will happen to those RU fans once RU takes a dip in their FB performance. Will they continue to get good ratings and fans for their games? ND will get 80k in South Bend and people will still watch even if they go 5-7 - will Rutgers fans?



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:29 am 
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Rutgers is much closer to NYC than UConn, which is over 100 miles away from Manhattan. With an upgraded football program at Rutgers & all of the high school talent in the state in both major sports, they are a sleeping giant giant that looks like it is waking up. With Big Ten membership, they would command tremendous interest from the New York media IMO. They don't get much attention now, but this emergence is just beginning.

If the BCS would like to see Notre Dame join a conference, I think that there is one simple step they could take. Treat them like a member of the Big East Conference, which is what they are. - a member that plays an independent football scheule, but a member nonetheless. One automatic BCS bid reserved for EITHER Notre Dame OR The Big East champ, whichever is higher in the BCS rankings. Simple.

The rationale is that the Big East champ has a 1:8 chance of getting an automatic bid while the next easiest is the Pac Ten at 1:10. The Big Ten is 1:11 & the rest are 1:12. This could be presented as an issue of fairness. It would also reflect the fact that Notre Dame & Big East football work cooperatively already as seen in their mutual bowl tie-ins.

The impact of such a move would be to encourage Notre Dame to play more games against Big East opponents beyond the 3 per year to which they are committed starting in 2010. If Notre Dame knew that it had to beat out the Big East champion for an automatic BCS bid AND that they would be guaranteed a bid even if they were not ranked in the top 8 as currently required, they would be more likely to schedule top Big East schools so that they have the opportunity to go head-to-head against their immediate competition.

The other effect of this would be that it would put Notre Dame in the position of more seriously considering conference membership. If they have to start playing a significant number of conference games anyway, why not go all the way? If they don't like the idea of Big East membership for football, they have the option of going to the Big Ten.

The BCS cannot require schools to join a conference - nor should they be in the position of doing this - but they can create conditions which favor such a move. Notre Dame would be free to retain its independence under these conditions if they so desired. This would also encourage the Big East to increase its membership to a level commensurate with the other BCS conferences. The BCS could stipulate that this package deal would exist only as long as the Big East kept its membership below 10.

The idea that The Big East would turn to Temple to replace Notre Dame is way off the mark. Temple is the worst team in college football & shows no signs of improving. The Big East would look elsewhere before they would even consider Temple in its present state of affairs. Memphis, Central Florida & even TCU would be on their short list long before Temple would.



I can see the ND have a tie to the BE's BCS bid only if the BE is in trouble with the BCS. Right now they are ok but it is certainly an option in the future. I know the BE wouldn't be happy with it for sure but it's not up to them.

Remember, having ND as a separate BCS team isn't that big of a deal in terms of money. A BCS bid by ND is only worth $4.5 million to ND or the cost of a '2nd BCS team' for a conference. They are not getting the $18 million anymore.



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