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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:10 am 
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It's a dream from Iowa State fans that they are Iowa's main rival. That doesn't mean Iowa is all that in on the snugglebunnies.

I can't quantify how much of that dream is reality. I doubt it. I know Floyd of Rosedale has to be valued more by Minnesota and Iowa, simply for conference implications.

Not that it matters to me. I SENSE tman wants to use this argument to wedge Iowa State into the Big 10, and it's not going to work like that. The Big 10 has better markets to mine, and we all know it.

Pounder, I have no doubt you are correct, but I'm curious as to why tman wants wedge Iow State into the Big 10 rather than any other team. Is he an Iowa State fan? Or is he a scared Big 12 fan?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:30 pm 
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Did you read the part where I said that Nebraska and Missouri would probably be better choices for the Big Ten?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:38 pm 
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Nope.

Minnesota Wisconsin is on par with Iowa Iowa State.


I am not going to take sides with your disagreement with Metro.

I do believe the Iowa-ISU rivalry continues to get stronger and has an intense history. It is in-state, whereby Iowa-Minnesota is more traditional season-ending conference rivalry.

The ESPN College Football Encyclopedia, edited by Michael MacCambridge, 2005 ESPN Books, has the following listed as major rivalries for those under discussion:

Iowa - Most frequent opponent has been Minnesota. First played in 1891. Have met almost every season since 1901. Minnesota won first 12 games of series.

Iowa State - It is Iowa. Began in 1894, heated up in 1904 when ISU beat Iowa 2-0, the first time Iowa had lost to an in-state team in 40 games. Due to bad blood and feuding, the series was discontinued and/or discouraged by the Iowa Board in Control of Athletics, and the schools played only twice from 1921 to 1976. In 1968, a six year series to begin in 1977 was later terminated by Iowa, refusing to honor the last four years of the contract, but was forced to honor otherwise due to an arbitrator's ruling. Iowa leads the series 35-17 (through 2004 season).

So for Iowa, Minnesota is pointed to as their most traditional (or serious) rival. Iowa State may be the most dissed/discouraged (or having a history of avoiding play by mostly Iowa); and for ISU, Iowa is the biggest rival. Maybe ESPN could be wrong, but that is how it is viewed due to the description of its history.

Without getting into details here, the playing for the pig and all, Iowa and Wisconsin are listed as Minnesota's biggest rivals. Minnesota and UW have met 115 times, the most meetings between 2 major colleges.

For Wisconsin, it is clearly Minnesota, according to ESPN.

Maybe the North Carolina factor is working somewhat in the analogy to Iowa and Iowa State. North Carolina's biggest rival was Virginia until the 1950s, having played the season ending game each year. Then it became nearby Duke. But also close-by NC State is a big rival. For Wake Forest, beating UNC is their top preference, though the feeling is not reciprocated.


Last edited by louisvillecard01 on Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:26 pm 
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My thoughts and sympathies just turned to Michigan State.

No particular reason. Really!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:43 pm 
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My thoughts and sympathies just turned to Michigan State.

No particular reason. Really!


Hey Pounder,

Here is what the ESPN College Football Encyclopedia, 2005 ESPN Books, edited by Michael MacCambridge, pp. 508-9, says about Michigan State's rival:

"Michigan State has had a long, legendary rivalry with Notre Dame, but even that heated series doesn't generate the animosity the Spartans feel toward their neighbors in Ann Arbor. The Michigan Wolverines have been detested since the series began in 1898 because of their dominance and their depiction of land-grant Michigan State as Moo U. The Spartans went 2-23-3 and were outscored 726-64 in their first 28 games against Michigan. Biggie Munn's first game as Michigan State coach was a 55-0 road loss to the Wolverines in 1947. At game's end, the Michigan band played "Old MacDonald Had a Farm" and the Spartans found their locker room inches deep with overflowed toilet water. Munn was so mad he cried, vowed he'd recruit the state better and get revenge. From 1950 through 1969, Munn and Daugherty combined to go 14-4-2 against the Wolverines. Bo Schembechler answered by ushering in another age of Michigan dominance that continues today. The Spartans, however, will always have 1973, when Michigan tied Ohio State for the Big Ten title. League athletic directors were asked to name the conference's Rose Bowl representative. Michigan State cast the deciding vote, sending the Buckeyes to Pasadena and Schembechler into a fit of anger."

Note: I will do the one for Penn State another time, but it does have this interesting quote on page 703:

"Critics say Paterno dropped Pitt as payback for the betrayal he still felt from the Panthers' joining the Big East in 1982 rather than helping Penn State form a proposed all-sports Eastern league".

It also states that "Ohio State is probably Penn State's biggest current rival".

It should also be noted that Penn State-Michigan State have a season-ending Big Ten game.

There are several schools whereby no other team claims any of them as their top rival. These may include schools such as Maryland and Wake Forest. One day, I may try to make a list. ;D


Last edited by sec03 on Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:01 am 
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Quote:
Note: I will do the one for Penn State another time, but it does have this interesting quote on page 703:

"Critics say Paterno dropped Pitt as payback for the betrayal he still felt from the Panthers' joining the Big East in 1982 rather than helping Penn State form a proposed all-sports Eastern league".

It also states that "Ohio State is probably Penn State's biggest current rival".

It should also be noted that Penn State-Michigan State have a season-ending Big Ten game.



Pitt and PSU did have a 4 game series from 97-2000 after PSU was accepted inot the Big10 in 1989. The game was played in the last year of Pitt Stadium and Pitt won 12-0.

There has been much speculation as to why the series has not been renewed. The best explanation I have is that PSU does not want a long term series while Pitt does.


Quote:

There are several schools whereby no other team claims any of them as their top rival. These may include schools such as Maryland and Wake Forest. One day, I may try to make a list. ;D


SU has essentially no school in the BE as their rival even though they have played WVu and Pitt over 50 + times (?) each. Many SU fans see BC as their rival being a private school in the NE. This is why they are looking at starting a series with BC.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:09 pm 
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I've posted this before in other forums, but as an Illini guy, here are my in-depth thoughts on how I believe Syracuse ought to be the 12th Big Ten team (assuming Notre Dame never joins):

http://frankthetank.wordpress.com/2006/03/05/big-ten-from-eleven-to-twelve/


Also, if there ever was any doubt as to how powerful the Big Ten is in terms of economics, those have been blown out of the water after the following announcement:

http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/5715770


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:54 pm 
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I've posted this before in other forums, but as an Illini guy, here are my in-depth thoughts on how I believe Syracuse ought to be the 12th Big Ten team (assuming Notre Dame never joins):

http://frankthetank.wordpress.com/2006/03/05/big-ten-from-eleven-to-twelve/


Also, if there ever was any doubt as to how powerful the Big Ten is in terms of economics, those have been blown out of the water after the following announcement:

http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/5715770


Illni, glad you shared this. Much of what you said I agree with. You being an Illinois guy, will let you pass on saying the Big Ten is the great conference ;D. Dang! If you followed and believed this website, I would say its the Big East :o!

Thinking as an SEC guy which I am, I would say West Virginia may be the best jewel that the Big East has right now. Georgia fans kind of believe. Seriously, to suggest their fan base is little more than Morgantown is missing a lot of fans. While West Virginia is a generally rural and a comparatively less populated state, their fans are state-wide and enthusiastic, and they do having following in southwestern Pennsylvania and other spots, and they are somewhat near significant metro regions. Penn State is in a rural region as well.

If the SEC was looking to expand toward the northeast, little doubt West Virginia would be their top choice. The ACC didn't even want them in their original sought after three. Possibly, the ACC would have gone after Rutgers or Pitt before ever turning to WVU. Different conferences would probably prefer different teams.

The Big Ten would have a concern with West Virginia about academics, joining AAU, etc. The ACC probably looked down on WVU as well. That may be a bit to stereotypic, but impressions linger for decades.

Rutgers was once on the Big Ten list following an expansion study.

I tend to think of Syracuse as more of an ACC type. Would the Carrier Dome satisfy the Big Ten? It would make Northwestern more comfortable. While Syracuse may be called a travel partner for Penn State, there are some appreciable miles between them.

Agree about Missouri and Iowa State.

If the Big Ten does plan to add, they should forget about Notre Dame and just do it. Agree on this.

I don't think Big East fans want to hear about any further departures. They need stability and maybe broader all-sports expansion than the Big Ten does.

Glad you shared.



Last edited by sec03 on Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:00 am 
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The problem with WVu is academics and market - which is why they are down on the list for ACC and Big10 expansion.

They would be a good fit for the SEC. SEC expansion came down to WVu and USC for spot #12.

I actually think in terms of market and academics that RU would be better than SU - only if RU continues its climb in FB. That would give the Big10 more of NYC and Philly (they already have that with PSU) and all of NJ. RU is also a land grant school. The problem with RU is that is is really far from the rest of the Big10.

Pitt would also be a natural fit in terms of geography being in the middle of PSU and OSU. It would be a good travel partner for PSU and would have a natural rivalry with them. It also has Big10 academics and research. Of course, the big strike against Pitt is the lack of a new market for the Big10. It would only solidify the Pittsburgh as Big10.

I still think the Big10 should go after RU or Missouri instead of SU but that's just me - assuming they no longer want to wait for ND.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:13 am 
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Of course, the big strike against Pitt is the lack of a new market for the Big10. It would only solidify the Pittsburgh as Big10.


Since all recent expansions have been done for one reason - money - that should seal the deal for Rutgers.

In addition to location/market, academics, & land grant history, they also have first rate athletic facilities, are close to major airports for travel, & are organized like other Big Ten instituions. Distance doesn't seem to be much of a factor these days. If BC could go to the ACC & TCU to the Mountain West, Rutgers can work in the Big Ten.

I think that Missouri is happy where they are.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:46 am 
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Quote:

Quote:
I've posted this before in other forums, but as an Illini guy, here are my in-depth thoughts on how I believe Syracuse ought to be the 12th Big Ten team (assuming Notre Dame never joins):

http://frankthetank.wordpress.com/2006/03/05/big-ten-from-eleven-to-twelve/


Also, if there ever was any doubt as to how powerful the Big Ten is in terms of economics, those have been blown out of the water after the following announcement:

http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/5715770


Illni, glad you shared this. Much of what you said I agree with. You being an Illinois guy, will let you pass on saying the Big Ten is the great conference ;D. Dang! If you followed and believed this website, I would say its the Big East :o!

Thinking as an SEC guy which I am, I would say West Virginia may be the best jewel that the Big East has right now. Georgia fans kind of believe. Seriously, to suggest their fan base is little more than Morgantown is missing a lot of fans. While West Virginia is a generally rural and a comparatively less populated state, their fans are state-wide and enthusiastic, and they do having following in southwestern Pennsylvania and other spots, and they are somewhat near significant metro regions. Penn State is in a rural region as well.

If the SEC was looking to expand toward the northeast, little doubt West Virginia would be their top choice. The ACC didn't even want them in their original sought after three. Possibly, the ACC would have gone after Rutgers or Pitt before ever turning to WVU. Different conferences would probably prefer different teams.

The Big Ten would have a concern with West Virginia about academics, joining AAU, etc. The ACC probably looked down on WVU as well. That may be a bit to stereotypic, but impressions linger for decades.

Rutgers was once on the Big Ten list following an expansion study.

I tend to think of Syracuse as more of an ACC type. Would the Carrier Dome satisfy the Big Ten? It would make Northwestern more comfortable. While Syracuse may be called a travel partner for Penn State, there are some appreciable miles between them.

Agree about Missouri and Iowa State.

If the Big Ten does plan to add, they should forget about Notre Dame and just do it. Agree on this.

I don't think Big East fans want to hear about any further departures. They need stability and maybe broader all-sports expansion than the Big Ten does.

Glad you shared.



sec03,

Thanks for your comments! I appreciate your thoughts on my blog post.

Unfortunately, my post might now be outdated. The more I look at the numbers from the Big Ten Channel and new ABC/ESPN deals, the more that I'm convinced that the chances of the conference adding anyone other than Notre Dame have dropped down to nil. The estimates that I've seen from a couple of different sources from Iowa and Michigan State report that each school is anticipating an additional $7.5 million in the first year from these new deals alone. That doesn't even include the separate contract that the Big Ten has with CBS for men's basketball. To put that into perspective, the Notre Dame deal with NBC that ended in 2004 yielded $6.43 million per year for the school (I haven't found numbers for the current deal, but the dollar amounts under the contract that ended in 2004 were actually lower than the first contract that ND signed with NBC in 1990s).

What does this mean? Any additional conference member is going to have to bring even more to the table than previously thought because that member is going to have to spur at least $7.5 million per year more in additional revenue just for each of the schools to receive the same dollar split at 12 members as they did at 11. Even with a potential Big Ten football championship game, is there any school other than Notre Dame that could possibly add that value? I still think Syracuse would be a good fit as a 12th team, but the sheer size of this new revenue stream for the Big Ten is probably going to kill any thoughts of expansion for a long time.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:01 am 
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FYI - for anyone that is interested, here are my thoughts on how the Big Ten Channel is going to affect the conference:

https://frankthetank.wordpress.com/2006/06/22/beaming-up-the-big-ten-channel/


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:34 am 
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Nicely written IBD. I agree with you on expansion especially since the Big10 Network is going to be on total choice.

In addition, not that I ever thought PSU would leave (I put it at < 0.0001%) but this contract squashes that to 0.



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:22 am 
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Quote:
Nicely written IBD. I agree with you on expansion especially since the Big10 Network is going to be on total choice.

In addition, not that I ever thought PSU would leave (I put it at < 0.0001%) but this contract squashes that to 0.



Very true. There's no way you'll ever see Penn State leave the Big Ten.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:25 pm 
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If Syracuse joins the Big Ten, how would the divisions look like? Minn, Iowa, Wisc, Ill, NW, Indiana and Purdue, Mich, Mich State, OSU, PSU, Syra?


Who does the Big East get to replace Syracuse? I would think UCF would be easy as a travel partner for USF.


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