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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:32 pm 
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Quinn wrote:
vp81955 wrote:
If, as some state, the Big Ten could go beyond 12 teams and expand to 14, I could see the ACC doing likewise.

Picture these changes:

Big Ten adds Maryland (from ACC) and Rutgers and Syracuse (from Big East). Maryland might be a darkhorse, but it could use the boost from Big Ten football, and with those three schools, the Big Ten would be set from New York to Washington, the prime eastern seaboard.

ACC then adds Connecticut, Pittsburgh and West Virginia from Big East. UConn complements Boston College, while Pitt and WVU complement each other.

The odd folks out in this would be Cincinnati, Louisville and South Florida, the three remaining Big East football members. Where would they go? I could envision Cinci and L'ville being picked up by the Big 12 -- Kentucky borders Missouri, and both schools have history with Great Plains competition from their years in the Missouri Valley Conference. USF is odd man out; I don't see the SEC taking it in. It might have to go to a non-BCS conference.

And the Big East could go back to its non-football origins.


If pretty sure though that if the Big Ten were speaking with Maryland at some point in this scenario, that Maryland would also report back to the ACC. It's all part of negotiations. So put aside how much of an extreme longshot Maryland leaving would ever be. Instead, look at it as business negotiations: Maryland tells the ACC that the Big Ten might officially invite them and the average yearly revenue will be X dollars. The ACC then considers it's options: let them go and replace them, or follow suit and expand to 14. The ACC would then look to work with Maryland to find suitable members. So perhaps it's as simple as an ACC North division being created by inviting Syracuse and Rutgers (BC, Syracuse, Rutgers, Maryland, Virginia Tech, Virginia).

Who knows but I feel dirty anytime I try to make a rationale point and it includes a 14 team BCS conference.

If the Big Ten conditionally accepted Maryland, I'm not sure what the ACC could do to dissuade it from joining. From a Maryland perspective, this would go far beyond athletics (although it plays a major part in this, particularly football). Big Ten membership has been a boon to the Penn State community in areas other than sports. Officials in College Park see the benefits it has brought State College.

Just one more thing -- in your hypothetical scenario, you have Syracuse and Rutgers joining the ACC instead of the Big Ten to assuage Maryland. In the unlikely event that happened, the ACC would now be a 14-team conference...and your proposed division only has six members. Care to add Wake, with the Triangle schools joining teams from Clemson on south to form a southern division?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:43 pm 
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vp81955 wrote:
Quinn wrote:
vp81955 wrote:
If, as some state, the Big Ten could go beyond 12 teams and expand to 14, I could see the ACC doing likewise.

Picture these changes:

Big Ten adds Maryland (from ACC) and Rutgers and Syracuse (from Big East). Maryland might be a darkhorse, but it could use the boost from Big Ten football, and with those three schools, the Big Ten would be set from New York to Washington, the prime eastern seaboard.

ACC then adds Connecticut, Pittsburgh and West Virginia from Big East. UConn complements Boston College, while Pitt and WVU complement each other.

The odd folks out in this would be Cincinnati, Louisville and South Florida, the three remaining Big East football members. Where would they go? I could envision Cinci and L'ville being picked up by the Big 12 -- Kentucky borders Missouri, and both schools have history with Great Plains competition from their years in the Missouri Valley Conference. USF is odd man out; I don't see the SEC taking it in. It might have to go to a non-BCS conference.

And the Big East could go back to its non-football origins.


If pretty sure though that if the Big Ten were speaking with Maryland at some point in this scenario, that Maryland would also report back to the ACC. It's all part of negotiations. So put aside how much of an extreme longshot Maryland leaving would ever be. Instead, look at it as business negotiations: Maryland tells the ACC that the Big Ten might officially invite them and the average yearly revenue will be X dollars. The ACC then considers it's options: let them go and replace them, or follow suit and expand to 14. The ACC would then look to work with Maryland to find suitable members. So perhaps it's as simple as an ACC North division being created by inviting Syracuse and Rutgers (BC, Syracuse, Rutgers, Maryland, Virginia Tech, Virginia).

Who knows but I feel dirty anytime I try to make a rationale point and it includes a 14 team BCS conference.

If the Big Ten conditionally accepted Maryland, I'm not sure what the ACC could do to dissuade it from joining. From a Maryland perspective, this would go far beyond athletics (although it plays a major part in this, particularly football). Big Ten membership has been a boon to the Penn State community in areas other than sports. Officials in College Park see the benefits it has brought State College.

Just one more thing -- in your hypothetical scenario, you have Syracuse and Rutgers joining the ACC instead of the Big Ten to assuage Maryland. In the unlikely event that happened, the ACC would now be a 14-team conference...and your proposed division only has six members. Care to add Wake, with the Triangle schools joining teams from Clemson on south to form a southern division?


More like Miami since they are such a big influence in the northeast still.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:05 pm 
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I think we tend to make too much of divisional aspects. Look at the current divisions in the ACC. Those are about making everyone happy and having the best matchups and have absolutely zero to do with geography.

Geography doesn't matter for football divisions, because you're playing once a week. There's no travel partners. You only need travel partners for soccer (and the ACC doesn't even play Friday/Sunday, so they don't) and volleyball. That's it.

Basketball, the extra six matchups are going to be determined more by TV than geography.

I keep hearing Maryland would consider leaving the ACC because they are unhappy with the expansion, but I don't recall any attribution of that. Anyone have any links on that topic?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:58 pm 
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JPSchmack wrote:
I think we tend to make too much of divisional aspects. Look at the current divisions in the ACC. Those are about making everyone happy and having the best matchups and have absolutely zero to do with geography.

Geography doesn't matter for football divisions, because you're playing once a week. There's no travel partners. You only need travel partners for soccer (and the ACC doesn't even play Friday/Sunday, so they don't) and volleyball. That's it.

Basketball, the extra six matchups are going to be determined more by TV than geography.

I keep hearing Maryland would consider leaving the ACC because they are unhappy with the expansion, but I don't recall any attribution of that. Anyone have any links on that topic?
Not true -- Maryland is generally happy with the ACC, and certainly wouldn't leave it for the Big East, as some have rumored. However, the opportunity the Big Ten would present, especially to a school stuck in a lackluster football conference athat just enlarged its stadium and needs to sell suites, is something else again.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:02 pm 
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Never heard anything to the effect of Maryland being unhappy with the ACC.

My guess is the Maryland talk may originate from the fact that the Big East expansion is projected to be eastward.
Penn State is still the eastern outpost in the Big Ten and so any new school (supposing ONE eastern school is added) would wind up being a "rival" of Penn State. And JoePa has been one of the prime advocates of Big Ten expansion, and
has mentioned various eastern teams.

So this begs the question - who were PSU's olg pre-Big Ten rivals ???
My recollection is: Pitt, WVU, Temple, Syracuse, and Maryland.
Probably BC, Army and Navy to a lesser extent. For whatever reason, I don't remember them playing Rutgers very much.

SO Maryland is out there, but I just don't see it happening.
If the Big Ten were to expand by one to the East, I agree with the consensus, that this will be about TV markets, and the list would be Rutgers, Syracuse, and Pitt (with Pitt less desirable from a TV market aspect than the other 2).

The only way I see the Big Ten messing with the ACC, would be a monster expansion to 16, where the Big Ten goes after Syracuse, Rutgers, UConn (all BE), and steals BC from the ACC (and then Notre Dame or Missouri to the West). That would be a bold move, and the Big Ten could own Boston <--> Kansas City. Imagine the BTN would become a huge regional college sports entity (it's big now, but it's footprint could double in terms of population). So if 16 can be made to work, who's to say they might not go for it ?

IF THE ACC were to lose BC, and figure that the new model is the 16-team mega-conference, they are positioned to gobble the remainder of BE football, and pull the Ohio Valley into their footprint.
ACC could expand by adding the mid-Atlantic / Ohio Valley and go to 16: Pitt, WVU, Cincy, Louisville, and Temple.
Some really good BB schools. Smaller TV markets than flagship schools (OK, WVU is a flagship), but expands ACC presence into PA, OH, KY, and lets them own WV. I have to believe USF gets left out. Miami / FSU don't need any more in-state competition.

This would create a nice N-S split for the ACC:
N: Temple, Pitt, Cincy, Louisville, WVU, Maryland, UVa, VaTech.
S: UNC, NCSt. Duke, Wake, Clemson, GaTech, Miami, FSU.
There is no longer the need to split up Miami and FSU, since their football prowess has dissipated to where that northern division could certainly hold their own.

OK, THIS IS NOTHING BUT SPECULATION.... but the economics for this scenario would seem to exist.
If you work in the office of the ACC or Big XII, you'd be remiss if you weren't doing some contingency planning now, should there be a need for an immediate or long-term response to a Big Ten expansion.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:57 pm 
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On the speculation front:

WHAT IF...the ACC decided to be proactive in strengthening their product by stepping further into the northeast BEFORE the Big Ten has a chance.

(2) Variables:

1) The ACC has some flexibility as they prepare to renegotiate their TV deal. Adding Syracuse and Rutgers, which would also bridge Boston College to Maryland, would give THE ACC the desired markets. Such additions could very well boost the per school payouts even while expanding to 14.

2) Adding those schools solidifies the ACC as the power in those markets and the northeast region. Nothing the Big Ten (or Big East) could do would that away.The Big Ten adding Pitt and Uconn would not have the same impact as the ACC adding Syracuse and Rutgers.

Not a bad lineup (divisions for football only):

ACC-North:
Boston College
Syracuse
Rutgers
Maryland
Virginia
Virginia Tech
Miami

ACC-South:
Duke
UNC
Wake Forest
NC State
Clemson
GA Tech
Florida St.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:31 pm 
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tute79 wrote:
Never heard anything to the effect of Maryland being unhappy with the ACC.

My guess is the Maryland talk may originate from the fact that the Big East expansion is projected to be eastward.
Penn State is still the eastern outpost in the Big Ten and so any new school (supposing ONE eastern school is added) would wind up being a "rival" of Penn State. And JoePa has been one of the prime advocates of Big Ten expansion, and
has mentioned various eastern teams.

So this begs the question - who were PSU's olg pre-Big Ten rivals ???
My recollection is: Pitt, WVU, Temple, Syracuse, and Maryland.
Probably BC, Army and Navy to a lesser extent. For whatever reason, I don't remember them playing Rutgers very much.

SO Maryland is out there, but I just don't see it happening.
If the Big Ten were to expand by one to the East, I agree with the consensus, that this will be about TV markets, and the list would be Rutgers, Syracuse, and Pitt (with Pitt less desirable from a TV market aspect than the other 2).

The only way I see the Big Ten messing with the ACC, would be a monster expansion to 16, where the Big Ten goes after Syracuse, Rutgers, UConn (all BE), and steals BC from the ACC (and then Notre Dame or Missouri to the West). That would be a bold move, and the Big Ten could own Boston <--> Kansas City. Imagine the BTN would become a huge regional college sports entity (it's big now, but it's footprint could double in terms of population). So if 16 can be made to work, who's to say they might not go for it ?

IF THE ACC were to lose BC, and figure that the new model is the 16-team mega-conference, they are positioned to gobble the remainder of BE football, and pull the Ohio Valley into their footprint.
ACC could expand by adding the mid-Atlantic / Ohio Valley and go to 16: Pitt, WVU, Cincy, Louisville, and Temple.
Some really good BB schools. Smaller TV markets than flagship schools (OK, WVU is a flagship), but expands ACC presence into PA, OH, KY, and lets them own WV. I have to believe USF gets left out. Miami / FSU don't need any more in-state competition.

This would create a nice N-S split for the ACC:
N: Temple, Pitt, Cincy, Louisville, WVU, Maryland, UVa, VaTech.
S: UNC, NCSt. Duke, Wake, Clemson, GaTech, Miami, FSU.
There is no longer the need to split up Miami and FSU, since their football prowess has dissipated to where that northern division could certainly hold their own.

OK, THIS IS NOTHING BUT SPECULATION.... but the economics for this scenario would seem to exist.
If you work in the office of the ACC or Big XII, you'd be remiss if you weren't doing some contingency planning now, should there be a need for an immediate or long-term response to a Big Ten expansion.
You've contradicted yourself. Why would the Big Ten consider Pittsburgh (a market it already has) and Kansas City and not consider the bigger, and far wealthier, Washington market, not to mention Baltimore?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:08 pm 
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Pitt MB thread with speculation regarding possible ACC expansion at http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=141&f=2455&t=5531427


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:56 pm 
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freaked4collegefb wrote:
Pitt MB thread with speculation regarding possible ACC expansion at http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=141&f=2455&t=5531427


Uconn to the ACc has always made sense. But villanova seems like a stretch since they aren't FBS football and would have so much work to do to get there (unlike Delaware, JMU, Montana in FCS).

If there is any truth to this conversation, it would fall in line with my train of though: if the Big Ten expands east with 1 or 3 schools, the ACC would need to make a similar move to grab their share of the market. The assumption is that the Big Ten would get it's first pick though and that the ACC moves would be based on what the Big Ten does. That might not be the best approach.

For instance, the ACC could add UConn and Syracuse tomorrow. But if the Big Ten added Syracuse and Rutgers first, then the ACC would be left with UConn and Pitt (or Nova like the thread suggested). BC, Uconn and Pitt isn't as strong a presence as BC, UConn and Syracuse.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:33 am 
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I wouldn't take ConjuntoPanther's post as something legit. I've been on that board for several years and most of the time he's just trying to get a rise out of people.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:31 am 
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Panther,thanks for the post.Of course,it is assumed that the Pitt MB thread discussion was SPECULATION only,especially regarding the ACC.

ESPN blog article(previously posted in another thread)with comments from ACC Commish who indicates that the league is not currently(he is concentrating on new tv deals) interested in expansion.However,will that stance change if the Big 10 raids the Big East?Stay tuned.
Link at http://espn.go.com/blog/acc/post/_/id/9 ... ks-part-ii


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:48 am 
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VP81955,found guest column in Maryland student paper suggesting that Maryland consider moving to the Big Ten.Could/should be interesting to see what kind of feedback it brings.
Link at http://www.diamondbackonline.com/opinio ... -1.1111037


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:42 pm 
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freaked4collegefb wrote:
VP81955,found guest column in Maryland student paper suggesting that Maryland consider moving to the Big Ten.Could/should be interesting to see what kind of feedback it brings.
Link at http://www.diamondbackonline.com/opinio ... -1.1111037


Decent feedback in the comments section already. Makes sense. But Maryland to the Big Ten is a total bust if it's not done so with northeast schools.

And I think that means Rutgers as the obvious target for #13. But #14 is when you run into problems. Anyway you look at it, there isn't an ideal 4th members for the Penn St - Rutgers - Maryland combo. Do you go after Syracuse as many expect? Or is it Boston College for the market and existing ACC "rivalry" with Maryland?

Meanwhile, the ACC would try to pick a Big East school. So that would mean UConn if Syracuse were in the Big Ten. But if BC were to leave, would the ACC take Syracuse after losing Boston College and Maryland? Maybe not. All of a sudden, the ACc might be in a tough spot and looking south or westward.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:51 am 
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Maryland blog article with comments from Maryland AD who says that Maryland is not interested in leaving the ACC for any other conference.Link at http://www.testudotimes.com/2010/2/9/13 ... d-athletic


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:40 am 
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If other BCS conferences expand to 16, the ACC would really work well expanding to 16 and using my four team division and mini football conference playoff format.

Using my four team division format for football, the ACC could expand with Syracuse, UConn, Pitt, WVU and split into the following four divisions:

ACC Northeast: Syracuse, Pitt, UConn, Boston College

ACC Mid Atlantic: Virginia, Va Tech, WVU, Maryland

ACC Tobacco Road: North Carolina, Duke, NC State, Wake Forest

ACC Southeast: Florida State, Miami, Georgia Tech, Clemson

End of season regular season ACC Northeast winner plays regular season ACC Mid Atlantic winner and ACC Tobacco Road regular season winner plays regular season winner of ACC Southeast.

Winners of those two games play for the ACC football title and BCS.

This format would really work well for basketball as each division would play double round robin and play each of the other 12 schools in one cross over game.

This would allow the ACC to start its own cable network.


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