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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:59 pm 
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CSNBBS MB thread discussing ND to ACC for non-FB sports at http://csnbbs.com/showthread.php?tid=586997


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:25 pm 
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tkalmus wrote:
The Bishin Cutter wrote:
fighting muskie wrote:
Expect Villanova and Georgetown to cut each other's throats to try to ride the coattails of the Irish into the ACC.
At least with Villanova, you get much of Philly and a football program that's at least studying the idea of upgrading its football. Georgetown hates football. I don't believe the ACC wants to do business with a bunch of stuck-up snobs who set the sport of college football back years because of this elitist "culture" crap that still exists within the school.

This was my point, the ACC take Nova to balance out ND in non-fb sports making a 14/16 split with a clause that they will upgrade (with stadium stipulations, etc) within 2 years if ND ever joins the ACC in fb. For the Southern fb schools they'd probably also need a clause saying that the ACC wouldn't take anymore non fb members (thus preventing the giant hybrid from forming). If ND never joins ACCfb, Nova makes everyone's life and scheduling a little easier; and if ND does join and Nova can't upgrade for whatever reason, they get kicked out and UConn or whoever gets the call to be the 16th.


15 bball schools makes scheduling difficult but not impossible. Just wait until ND joins for football, if they ever do, and then expand to 16. Don't expand for expansions sake just to add another team which splits a 20% pie 16 ways instead of 15.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:33 pm 
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Dunno if we should take anything from this (I would say no) but FSU president voted against the exit fee increase.

http://floridastate.rivals.com/content. ... &PT=4&PR=2

He makes a good point, the number is so outrageous it is punitive. I doubt FSU or anyone else is planning to move, but I have to wonder if anyone could really be held to such an outrageous number if they wanted to leave.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:57 am 
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Maryland voted against it too, you say?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:13 am 
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tkalmus wrote:
The Bishin Cutter wrote:
fighting muskie wrote:
Expect Villanova and Georgetown to cut each other's throats to try to ride the coattails of the Irish into the ACC.
At least with Villanova, you get much of Philly and a football program that's at least studying the idea of upgrading its football. Georgetown hates football. I don't believe the ACC wants to do business with a bunch of stuck-up snobs who set the sport of college football back years because of this elitist "culture" crap that still exists within the school.

This was my point, the ACC take Nova to balance out ND in non-fb sports making a 14/16 split with a clause that they will upgrade (with stadium stipulations, etc) within 2 years if ND ever joins the ACC in fb. For the Southern fb schools they'd probably also need a clause saying that the ACC wouldn't take anymore non fb members (thus preventing the giant hybrid from forming). If ND never joins ACCfb, Nova makes everyone's life and scheduling a little easier; and if ND does join and Nova can't upgrade for whatever reason, they get kicked out and UConn or whoever gets the call to be the 16th.


The ACC will not add Georgetown or Nova because that would only aid the Irish and not aid any of the other schools that play football. That's how the ACC will be different than the Big East and be able to control the Irish. The Irish's power in the Big East came from the non-football playing schools, not the football playing schools.

There is also no need for the ACC to add a 16th non football school for scheduling purposes. Let's examine what an 18 game basketball schedule could look like with only 15 teams. FRESNO is right on with the 3 divisions of 5 idea.

I'd would split into 3 divisions of 5 for scheduling only. No need for 3 divisions for standings. Divisions are split geographically (helps travel wise). Virginia would rather be tied with UNC than Virginia Tech for basketball but may have to switch Virginia and Clemson for other sports.

Atlantic- Notre Dame, Syracuse, Pitt, BC, Maryland
Coastal- UNC, Duke, NC State, Wake, Virginia (Clemson)
Football- FSU, Miami, Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, Clemson (Virginia)

Here's your 18 game schedule. Play everyone in your division home and home, play one of the 2 divisions on the road, the other division at home. Rotate divisions every other year.

The only reason to add a 16th team would be when the Irish joins for football. If the the ACC changes their plans of a 9 game conference schedule to an 8 game conference schedule then they don't even have to add the 16 team. An 8 game conference schedule would be Notre Dame's preference. I believe that the Irish's new contract with NBC will expire the same time as the ACC's, then the Irish will join for football.

For football, take the same 3 divisions as above. You play everyone in your division annually and then play 2 teams from the other 2 divisions. ACC championship game would be played by the 2 highest ranked division champions.

Don't get me wrong, my preference would be to add a 16th team if and only when Notre Dame joins for football. I think Rutgers and the NJ market would make the ACC the most money at that point.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:32 am 
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SJSUFan2010 wrote:
Dunno if we should take anything from this (I would say no) but FSU president voted against the exit fee increase.

http://floridastate.rivals.com/content. ... &PT=4&PR=2

He makes a good point, the number is so outrageous it is punitive. I doubt FSU or anyone else is planning to move, but I have to wonder if anyone could really be held to such an outrageous number if they wanted to leave.


I can't see how it would be legal to do this. How can this be made effective immediately without some sort of window. Just my opinion, but I can see FSU taking this to court. There should be some kind of window until either Notre Dame officially joins or at least until the Irish puts the 5 ACC games on their football schedule.

From what I have read on FSU sites, forums, and tweets, this was a complete blind-side by the ACC against FSU.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:40 am 
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seanbo wrote:
tkalmus wrote:
The Bishin Cutter wrote:
fighting muskie wrote:
Expect Villanova and Georgetown to cut each other's throats to try to ride the coattails of the Irish into the ACC.
At least with Villanova, you get much of Philly and a football program that's at least studying the idea of upgrading its football. Georgetown hates football. I don't believe the ACC wants to do business with a bunch of stuck-up snobs who set the sport of college football back years because of this elitist "culture" crap that still exists within the school.

This was my point, the ACC take Nova to balance out ND in non-fb sports making a 14/16 split with a clause that they will upgrade (with stadium stipulations, etc) within 2 years if ND ever joins the ACC in fb. For the Southern fb schools they'd probably also need a clause saying that the ACC wouldn't take anymore non fb members (thus preventing the giant hybrid from forming). If ND never joins ACCfb, Nova makes everyone's life and scheduling a little easier; and if ND does join and Nova can't upgrade for whatever reason, they get kicked out and UConn or whoever gets the call to be the 16th.


The ACC will not add Georgetown or Nova because that would only aid the Irish and not aid any of the other schools that play football. That's how the ACC will be different than the Big East and be able to control the Irish. The Irish's power in the Big East came from the non-football playing schools, not the football playing schools.

There is also no need for the ACC to add a 16th non football school for scheduling purposes. Let's examine what an 18 game basketball schedule could look like with only 15 teams. FRESNO is right on with the 3 divisions of 5 idea.

I'd would split into 3 divisions of 5 for scheduling only. No need for 3 divisions for standings. Divisions are split geographically (helps travel wise). Virginia would rather be tied with UNC than Virginia Tech for basketball but may have to switch Virginia and Clemson for other sports.

Atlantic- Notre Dame, Syracuse, Pitt, BC, Maryland
Coastal- UNC, Duke, NC State, Wake, Virginia (Clemson)
Football- FSU, Miami, Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, Clemson (Virginia)

Here's your 18 game schedule. Play everyone in your division home and home, play one of the 2 divisions on the road, the other division at home. Rotate divisions every other year.

The only reason to add a 16th team would be when the Irish joins for football. If the the ACC changes their plans of a 9 game conference schedule to an 8 game conference schedule then they don't even have to add the 16 team. An 8 game conference schedule would be Notre Dame's preference. I believe that the Irish's new contract with NBC will expire the same time as the ACC's, then the Irish will join for football.

For football, take the same 3 divisions as above. You play everyone in your division annually and then play 2 teams from the other 2 divisions. ACC championship game would be played by the 2 highest ranked division champions.

Don't get me wrong, my preference would be to add a 16th team if and only when Notre Dame joins for football. I think Rutgers and the NJ market would make the ACC the most money at that point.



Love the 5 team divisions of 3 idea. But I'd swap out Maryland for VA Tech or Miami, both being schools with connections to the northern schools, especially Miami. In fact, I think they'd go out of their way to ensure those northeast recruiting trips and locked in games for all the northeast transplants in Miami.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:44 am 
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seanbo wrote:
SJSUFan2010 wrote:
Dunno if we should take anything from this (I would say no) but FSU president voted against the exit fee increase.

http://floridastate.rivals.com/content. ... &PT=4&PR=2

He makes a good point, the number is so outrageous it is punitive. I doubt FSU or anyone else is planning to move, but I have to wonder if anyone could really be held to such an outrageous number if they wanted to leave.


I can't see how it would be legal to do this. How can this be made effective immediately without some sort of window. Just my opinion, but I can see FSU taking this to court. There should be some kind of window until either Notre Dame officially joins or at least until the Irish puts the 5 ACC games on their football schedule.

From what I have read on FSU sites, forums, and tweets, this was a complete blind-side by the ACC against FSU.


There's nothing FSU can do. There was a vote and by the articles of the league, the vote does not have to be unanimous for such issues. If FSU wants to leave, they will have to pay the $50 million unless the ACC opts to negotiate, which most conferences do. Even the Big 12, in the face of destruction, cut deals for Nebraska and Colorado to leave at a lower total exit cost. Same goes for the Big East, who let Pitt and Syracuse leave early for only an extra 2.5 million.

But even the Big 12 has the rights grant waiver, which is the same general idea the ACC kicked in. It's not $50 million, it's just that $50 million is the TV share that is associated with an exit fee. If the TV contract rate went up, the exit fee goes up. TV revenue goes down, exit fee goes down.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:57 am 
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Agree that having such an enormous exit fee imposed on you by others may be too punitive.

If you can't afford $50 million, you are committed to the confernece, a conference that Notre Dame apparently refused to commit their football team to.

I think I'm getting a vibe that over the next decade, Notre Dame may start phasing out some of their current annual rivals to set themselves up to join the ACC for FB.
(No, I have not read that anywhere, but there have been some comments that sound like:
"In the event, Notre Dame does feel it becomes necessary to join a FB conference, it'll be the ACC..."
They seem to be preparing the alumni for that eventuality....

The first indications will come ever they extend contracts with Michigan, Michigan State, Purdue, Stanford that are once every 2 years, instead of every year.

But back to the exit fee... it seems only fair to offer a window (starting immediately) during which a school can choose to leave and have to cough up only the current $20 million fee.
However, I think once Notre Dame is fully assimilated into the ACC TV contracts, the ACC money will be VERY GOOD.
Swofford has gobbled up the best pieces of the Big East. The project will be complete when Notre Dame FB and UConn come aboard.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:04 am 
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tute79 wrote:
Agree that having such an enormous exit fee imposed on you by others may be too punitive.

If you can't afford $50 million, you are committed to the confernece, a conference that Notre Dame apparently refused to commit their football team to.

I think I'm getting a vibe that over the next decade, Notre Dame may start phasing out some of their current annual rivals to set themselves up to join the ACC for FB.
(No, I have not read that anywhere, but there have been some comments that sound like:
"In the event, Notre Dame does feel it becomes necessary to join a FB conference, it'll be the ACC..."
They seem to be preparing the alumni for that eventuality....

The first indications will come ever they extend contracts with Michigan, Michigan State, Purdue, Stanford that are once every 2 years, instead of every year.

But back to the exit fee... it seems only fair to offer a window (starting immediately) during which a school can choose to leave and have to cough up only the current $20 million fee.
However, I think once Notre Dame is fully assimilated into the ACC TV contracts, the ACC money will be VERY GOOD.
Swofford has gobbled up the best pieces of the Big East. The project will be complete when Notre Dame FB and UConn come aboard.


At least with ND, it's a FIRM 5 games starting in 2014. ND is agreeing to scrap it's Big Ten games in favor of ACC ones. That should tell you of what they think about the Big Ten. In joining for only 5 games and not 8 (or 9), ND can ensure the annual USC, Navy and Stanford games. There is also the Texas series now that they will keep. That allows 2 other games per season.

The key will be in the ND alignment with the Orange bowl. I'd have to see the specs on the agreement, to see what makes them eligible, before I have a full opinion on their membership. But if it isn't real easy for them to get that spot, and pending the new "playoff" format, that will dictate whether ND ever adds 3 more ACC games to become a full member.

For now, those who feel ND will never join the ACC for all sports should be a lower number than those who think they will join one day. There's the 5 games per year, something the Big East didn't have, and there is of course the new playoff system. If ND finds itself outside the playoff despite 1 loss, because there is an ACC school with only 1 loss, then ND all of a sudden has a big reason to scrap independence after the Texas series, to hold on to only Navy, Stanford and USC eahc year as a full member.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:39 pm 
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ACC will need a 16th down the road. That is the title of a commentary (Luke DeCock - The Raleigh News and Observer, (Thurs., 9/13/2012). Also, printed in http://WWW.THESTATE.COM, Columbia, SC).

Basically, it implies #16 for the ACC will indeed be sought in the near future. Suggested top candidate: Vanderbilt from the SEC. Also obvious and prominent: Rutgers. Also mentioned, though noting it is a less of a fit, is UCONN, who was being considered when Pitt & Syracuse were added.

The crown jewel of Swofford's expansion legacy --- "first he lands the Irish, then he raids the SEC."

Here's MY reality check on this particular question:

(a) All of the ACC additions have come from the BIG EAST -- including Notre Dame without full football.
(b) The SEC nor the B1G did not pursue any of the all-sports additions from the BE; and the B1G certainly would not have accepted ND w/o full fb.
(c) Better focus on Rutgers for eventual #16. While the SEC has zero exit fees, Vandy gets solid and lofty revenue in the SEC. As the lone selective, private school in the SEC, certainly Vandy struggles with SEC fb. But the SEC brings in very good crowds to Nashville, and Vandy would not want to give that up. Plus, if Vandy left, nearby games with schools such as Kentucky, Ole Miss, Georgia, and particularly Tennessee could be dropped. While the ACC would provide Vandy with more "like-minded" schools and an opportunity for perhaps more fb wins, Vandy has always maintained they are happy in the SEC.
(d) Notre Dame wanted to escape from the Big East association; and the ACC was perceptually viewed as old BCS #5 in the conference ranking order; the 2/3 marriage they mutually view shall meet both needs. From what ND has conveyed on this, they have no intention of being a full fb member. We'll see in years down the road.
(e) Imposing, at the same time on all members, a 50 million+ exit fee doesn't sound like complete confidence in future stability.

Could the ACC try to do some switch with the SEC such as exchange FSU for Vandy and then the ACC adds Rutgers as well? That would involve Vandy agreeing, FSU agreeing, near all SEC schools agreeing including those that said no earlier to more in-footprint additions; the ACC schools agreeing, etc. If FSU would leave, what does a school such as Clemson think? In addition to FSU, Maryland also voted against the exit fee (ummh, had Maryland had prior talk among the B1G, SEC, or B12, or they saw the fee as ridiculous as well?)

The ACC supporting press and some conference member spokepersons appear to be acting as if this is the great expansion deal of the era. In reality, they caved to ND without fb membership, though a promise of 5 rotating games each season. I expect Swofford certainly got that in writing and notarized, unlike what happened in the BE during the Tranghese period.
So, the ACC just took more from the Big East and roles each carried from their prior conference. And no doubt, they'll go back to it (BE) when #16 is sought, whenever that day may come.


Last edited by sec03 on Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:27 pm 
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Two thoughts to ponder:

1) When they say contracted to play 5 ACC opponents how exactly does that break down? 2 Home, 2 Away, 1 Neutral? Notre Dame always gets 3 Home games? And when Notre Dame plays on the road where will those games be played? Does Notre Dame expect BC to rent out Gillette to host them? Syracuse the Meadowlands? Maryland, UVA, and VT FedEx Stadium? The Carolina schools Bank of America Stadium? and GT the Georgia Dome?

2) I think the best way for the ACC to schedule for basketball is for each team to have 2 permanent rivals that they play twice each season and everyone else once for a total of 16 games and then the remaining 2 games of the schedule are repeats on either a rotating basis or picked based on the previous season's performance to give the media partners a few more high profile games. Partners would be as such:
BC--ND, Syracuse
Syracuse--Pitt, BC
Pitt--ND, Syracuse
Notre Dame--BC, Pitt
Maryland--VT, UVA
UVA--Maryland, VT
VT--UVA, Maryland
UNC--Duke, NC St
NC St--UNC, WF
Duke--UNC, WF
WF--NC St, Duke
Clemson--GT, FSU
GT--Clemson, Miami
FSU--Miami, Clemson
Miami--FSU, GT
This is very similar to the way things are now with a few rivals switched around to accommodate the newcomers.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:27 pm 
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Two thoughts to ponder:

1) When they say contracted to play 5 ACC opponents how exactly does that break down? 2 Home, 2 Away, 1 Neutral? Notre Dame always gets 3 Home games? And when Notre Dame plays on the road where will those games be played? Does Notre Dame expect BC to rent out Gillette to host them? Syracuse the Meadowlands? Maryland, UVA, and VT FedEx Stadium? The Carolina schools Bank of America Stadium? and GT the Georgia Dome?

2) I think the best way for the ACC to schedule for basketball is for each team to have 2 permanent rivals that they play twice each season and everyone else once for a total of 16 games and then the remaining 2 games of the schedule are repeats on either a rotating basis or picked based on the previous season's performance to give the media partners a few more high profile games. Partners would be as such:
BC--ND, Syracuse
Syracuse--Pitt, BC
Pitt--ND, Syracuse
Notre Dame--BC, Pitt
Maryland--VT, UVA
UVA--Maryland, VT
VT--UVA, Maryland
UNC--Duke, NC St
NC St--UNC, WF
Duke--UNC, WF
WF--NC St, Duke
Clemson--GT, FSU
GT--Clemson, Miami
FSU--Miami, Clemson
Miami--FSU, GT
This is very similar to the way things are now with a few rivals switched around to accommodate the newcomers.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:49 pm 
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Article out of Philly discussing ND and possible future ACC realignment at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/col ... _hit_.html


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:43 pm 
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tute79 wrote:
I think I'm getting a vibe that over the next decade, Notre Dame may start phasing out some of their current annual rivals to set themselves up to join the ACC for FB.
(No, I have not read that anywhere, but there have been some comments that sound like:
"In the event, Notre Dame does feel it becomes necessary to join a FB conference, it'll be the ACC..."
They seem to be preparing the alumni for that eventuality....

ND AD Swarbrick said:
Quote:
"We fully plan to maintain football independence. I don't see that changing. But if it ever did, the ACC's our home and we'd look to them."

Link: http://www.roanoke.com/sports/acc/wb/314019


Quinn wrote:
The key will be in the ND alignment with the Orange bowl. I'd have to see the specs on the agreement, to see what makes them eligible, before I have a full opinion on their membership. But if it isn't real easy for them to get that spot, and pending the new "playoff" format, that will dictate whether ND ever adds 3 more ACC games to become a full member.

For now, those who feel ND will never join the ACC for all sports should be a lower number than those who think they will join one day.



Quote:
The ACC will give Notre Dame access to its eight non-Orange Bowl tie-ins, such as the Chick-fil-A and the Music City bowls. Beginning with the 2014 season, Notre Dame will be eligible for all those bowls' ACC slots.

Link: http://www.roanoke.com/sports/acc/wb/314019


Quote:
3) Will Notre Dame be a part of the ACC's bowl selection process?
Yes, but only in bowl games below the BCS level.

[... and ...]

Notre Dame will have to be ranked higher or within one of the eligible ACC team to jump them in the bowl order, Swofford said.

Link: http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/09/12/2336990/5-questions-about-acc-notre-dame.html

I read an alternative representation of the 'within one' rule to be within one win/loss of an ACC team to leap them in bowl order. (Will try to find link again to post.)

Quote:
Notre Dame will play five ACC teams each season, and it will play every ACC team at least once every three years.

The plan is for Notre Dame, in Year A for example, to host three home games and play two road games against ACC teams, and then vice versa in Year B. All games against Notre Dame will be considered non-conference games.

Link: http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/09/12/2336990/5-questions-about-acc-notre-dame.html

Quote:
Notre Dame will provide the ACC with certain dates each year for those five football games against ACC teams. It will be up to the ACC to pick the five league teams for those slots each year.

Link: http://www.roanoke.com/sports/acc/wb/314019


Last edited by gsohokiefan on Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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