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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 10:51 am 
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mooseheadcane, I could not find the link. Do you know what the four proposed changes?

All this Miami to ACC may finally get the BE to wake up.

While I am not a fan of 12 team coferences and prefer a playoff, 8 football team is not ideal either. Factor in the ND situation and no wonder Miami is looking at ACC possiblities.

I would favor the current 8 BE football schools break away and add Louisville and possibly one other team.

The football and basketball members could work out exit fees for the basketball revnue through this year. It would take five year cycle to finally clear up basketball revenue.



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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 11:24 am 
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The football and basketball members could work out exit fees for the basketball revnue through this year. It would take five year cycle to finally clear up basketball revenue.


Just wondering why you think the BB members would work out a deal to send the FB schools away with some BB revenue.

The BB schools don't "need" to change - the FB group has to expand if Miami, Syracuse and BC leave. That puts all the leverage in the BB schools' hands. Without leaving, the FB schools can not re-establish enough all-sports teams to remain BCS (the bigger pot of gold for them) unless BB agrees to allow it (they won't).

If the FB group loses the BCS moniker - even for one year, there is no reason to expect that they'll just get it back later. The BB-only group will retain the name BigEast and the BB revenue if the 3 (actually any 3 - as long as one of them is Miami) FB schools defect to the ACC.


Last edited by nert on Mon May 05, 2003 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 1:43 pm 
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lash - ref. the 4 possibilities. there is no link on these.
it was only my opinion. there has been talk of this on the
canes board(grassy). i think by the end of may we'll
have a good idea as to which way this whole thing is
heading.


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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 3:13 pm 
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babbling beano cook says that MIAMI is going to the
ACC. based on what beano says that probably means
that the deal will fall appart.


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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 4:18 pm 
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i believe the 8 catholic schools (providence, seton hall, georgetown, villanova, saint johns, boston college and notre dame), add marquette, depaul and st. louis from the cusa and xavier from the a-10.

someone posted something about the advantages of a split before and i agree - so i'm borrowing it.



EMUHuron...that was my idea back on a post regarding the disintegration of the Big East and CUSA basketball schools. Most of them being Catholic. 8-)
You're welcome to borrow it...it's an excellent idea!

;D

I see this as a potential two way street. If Miami doesn't go and leverages a deal with the Big East out of this then the ACC is the one in trouble because under the right circumstances the ACC may get raided by the Big East to get to 12. Clemson would go, and so could FSU or GaTech. Although I would go if I was Maryland because the fit is just as good in the Big East for them in all sports, as it currently is in the ACC.

The other shoe may fall here.

But since this is speculation on Miami to ACC, I will follow that thread (even though I think the ACC may be at bigger risk!...it's all about football and ACC is stuck in a basketball mentality)

Miami is the first domino, if they go then they get followed by Syracuse, and one other (VaTech is most logical). I agree BC will want to stay with something resembling the Big East.

I see a new Big East being initially the current leftovers and they would be forced now to keep Temple. They invite Louisville, and Cincinnati because they don't have many other choices. This actually strengthens Notre Dames position in the conference because they are now needed more than ever by the new Miami-less Big East in other sports.

This may in turn force the basketball schools to want to make a split and now it becomes logical for the basketball only schools of CUSA and Big East to get together and form a new conference. Our earlier proposed East/Midwest Catholic conference. I don't see Boston College joining this group, and I don't see Notre Dame joining it unless they can't get the current deal they have with the Big East extended. Notre Dame is all about what is in it for Notre Dame.

Your new basketball conference becomes DePaul, St.Louis, Marquette, Georgetown, Villanova, St. Johns, Seton Hall, and Providence. Now if I'm Xavier I want in this conference right now, and they could be your 9th school. A good basketball number.

CUSA scrambles to fill the loss of 5 schools, two football. Since they are now the C- (southern) USA the logical choices are between Marshall, UCF, and the eastern WAC's (Tulsa, SMU Rice, LaTech).

Choices made here from the WAC force the elimination of this conference or the elimination of the SunBelt because the WAC will have to cherry pick the SunBelt next if it wishes to survive. The MAC can withstand the loss of a couple of schools.

This is truly a domino problem.

Which way will the dominoes fall?
Towards the BigEast as currently reported...or towards the ACC if Miami cuts a new deal! 8-)


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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 4:43 pm 
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mooseheadcane, the thing that Beano would probably have an inside track is the status of Notre Dame.

Nert,
you have a good point on the power of the BB schools if Miami, Syr, and BC bolt.

The football schools will most likely leave on their own to create a 12 team all sports league.

There are probably two potential paths to take for the football schools. Assumming buy in from BB schools, add Memphis, Cincinnati, and Louisville as replacements and keep the Big East name and bb revenue sharing potential. This would be in the best interest of UConn.

This may not be enough as there will be so much pressure on Va Tech, WVU, and Pitt to form a 12 team all sports conference. This is the only possible chance to keep or acquire BCS membership.

The BCS may be gone after 2005. This may be the reason that the ACC is expanding to plan for long term. A 12 team all sports conference would be the best bet for the BE football schools if Miami goes to the ACC.

An interesting post on another board was the following alignment.

North: Pitt, Marshall, East Carolina, Cincinnati, WVU, Louisville

South: Va Tech, Memphis, South Florida, Southern Miss, Houston, TCU

This is the down side of losing Miami as UConn and Rutgers may be left out of a 12 team format.

Basketball and current revenue sharing would be better by remaining in the BE with 8 teams replaced with Cincy, Lou, Mem.

The long term considerations will probably result in some form of the above 12 team some format.

Nert, since football is driving expansion, What teams would you pick to be in a new 12 team format?


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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 4:52 pm 
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Possible scenerio--

North: Pitt, Marshall, East Carolina, Cincinnati, WVU, Louisville

South: Va Tech, Memphis, South Florida, Southern Miss, Houston, TCU

--0r--

North: Pitt, Syracuse, BC, Cincinnati, WVU, Louisville

South: Va Tech, Memphis, Miami, Southern Miss, Houston, TCU



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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 5:44 pm 
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Quote:


If the FB group loses the BCS moniker - even for one year, there is no reason to expect that they'll just get it back later. The BB-only group will retain the name BigEast and the BB revenue if the 3 (actually any 3 - as long as one of them is Miami) FB schools defect to the ACC.


Great point Nert!

The Big East could lose all the football schools, but would only really miss Syracuse and Boston College. Uconn and Rutgers would have hard times finding all-sports invites. So there's a good chance they'd just play indy football and remain in the Big East.

The Big East could stay local and grab Temple and UMass for non-football sports to form a solid non-football conference:

UMass
Providence
UConn
St. Johns
Seton Hall
Rutgers
Villanova
Temple
Georgtown
Notre Dame

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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 8:22 am 
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EMUHuron...that was my idea back on a post regarding the disintegration of the Big East and CUSA basketball schools. Most of them being Catholic. 8-)
You're welcome to borrow it...it's an excellent idea!

;D


I always wondered who came up with the Catholic Conference theory when NotreDame joined the BigEast in 1995 (maybe it even existed before that) - so it was you....all those years ago!

Versions of that idea have been making the internet circles on a regular basis for at least as long as I've been posting on sports boards - including many boards that are no longer with us.

True - it is an excellent idea - which is why it sticks around. It also might be why it hasn't happened (for those cynics out there).
____________________________________________

There's an old story about Einstein taking the time to listen to a man explaining his own mathematical theories at length after a conference Einstein spoke at.

An aide who was listening nearby later asked Einstein why he spent so much time talking to a man about elementary calculus.

Einstein replied that he listened because the man had developed Calculus on his own - not learned it from anyone else. To discourage him by saying the idea had already been done may stop him from conducting further research - and thus, may rob the world of what he could have discovered on his own.
_____________________________________________

While I believe that you came up with the Catholic Conference idea on your own - this poster might have as well. The idea may have been "original" thousands of times by now.

Let's just hope (for the Catholic Conference BB theory fans) that the idea finally does become "original thought" in the head of a person in the position to make it happen.


Last edited by nert on Tue May 06, 2003 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 8:26 am 
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Great point Nert!


Blind squirrel theory - but thanks for reading.


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 11:30 am 
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Re: The Acorn

That is a great point, but if Temple has been kept out in basketball in the past because of recruiting competition (with 'Nova) would they still keep them out now? With BC gone I guess you don't have the same problem with bringing in UMass. Rhode Island would be a nice geographic fit. If they wanted to move west they could snag Dayton and Xavier. They're in the BE mold, and they've been the most succesful A10 bball teams lately. Would be interesting to see if that would give the BE greater access to the Midwestern recruits.

daddywags,

This is a dangerous ride for the ACC. They're catching the tiger by the tale. Maybe not THAT dangerous, but it could really turn on them down the road. If the BE is at 9 or 10 members, including ND, in a couple of years and the ACC has not expanded (and more importantly, really has nowhere to go and no viable candidates to bring in as new members) FSU will probably bolt. Clemson and Ga Tech too. And Maryland will probably be very open minded about leaving. The BE could make room for between 2 and 4 teams by that time, depending on what happens with the bb-only teams and UConn football. At that point the ACC will be done dealing as a real football conference.

I'd hope they'd have the sense to form an expanded bball conference and really push the academics. Back to the whole Magnolia League idea, but they may also worry about recruiting. Decent fits like Richmond, George Washington, Georgetown (depending on what happens with the BE), and smaller schools with decent basketball like Davidson (had to find a way to include my Mildcats) would make great geographic sense, but I doubt they'd want new members right in their backyard, assuming they'd even want to join. With Clemson, Ga Tech, and possibly Maryland gone, that'd leave room for bump-ups like Emory or Furman (not likely, but not impossible since the ACC would be fairly desperate), Navy as a football-only member (in an obviously crappy football conference). More likely they'd look at folks like Tulane, Vandy, Baylor, and Rice. It's not difficult to imagine Vandy and Tulane getting very competitive in basketball.

Forming a southern academic consortium like the Big 11 (plus Chicago) would be pretty interesting. No telling how it would go though. There's tons of bad blood, everybody but Vandy is either a potential competitor, a geographic reach, culturally not a great fit, or too small to fit in well. Swofford probably realizes they'd much rather all get rich and bring in 3 BE schools than lose tons of money in fb, endanger basketball, and face a lengthy battle to fill back in the ranks of the conference.

I think mooseheadcane's right, we'll probably know by the end of May. By then the ACC will either reach an agreement and approach Miami, or they'll reach an impasse with Duke and a couple of other dissenters and that will hit the press. I think the BE winning out might be the better deal in the end for Clemson and FSU, but I'm afraid FSU might hold out too long while the ACC splits and the BE will fill up. If Bobby has torpedoed our program by then, I doubt that the SEC would make room for us. FSU with bad football isn't nearly as attractive. Scary (but not if you dislike FSU).


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 2:26 pm 
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Although not commented upon, this must be a concern for the Pac Ten in terms of TV deals, national perception etc.

A "new ACC" football TV deal will most likely be better than what the Pac 10 will get for 2006. Given how crummy the Big 12's Fox deal is and may continue to be (heaven knows why), that means the ACC's would be the 3rd best in the country.

Pac Ten will make the move to the champ game to keep pace. Feeling just enough desperation to make it feasible they take BYU & Utah, agreeing to work with BYU's "no Sunday games" rule.


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 4:54 pm 
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Quote:


I always wondered who came up with the Catholic Conference theory when NotreDame joined the BigEast in 1995 (maybe it even existed before that) - so it was you....all those years ago!

Versions of that idea have been making the internet circles on a regular basis for at least as long as I've been posting on sports boards - including many boards that are no longer with us.

True - it is an excellent idea - which is why it sticks around. It also might be why it hasn't happened (for those cynics out there).
_____________________________________________

While I believe that you came up with the Catholic Conference idea on your own - this poster might have as well. The idea may have been "original" thousands of times by now.

Let's just hope (for the Catholic Conference BB theory fans) that the idea finally does become "original thought" in the head of a person in the position to make it happen.


I deleted your cr*p about the Einstein story because it is not cogent to the discussion at hand.

Essentially point made was involving an all-Catholic conference combining remnants of CUSA and BigEast basketball, which if you bothered to check the record, I did propose back in an earlier post, and that was my response to EMHuron. Regardless it is still an excellent idea, mainly because it is NOT a totally new concept. It's how you get to the teams that can be somewhat original thought. I can't speak for other boards just this one, since I hadn't read the idea previously to it's discussion here on this board.

The MAAC is an all-catholic conference except for Rider...don't know how they got in this mix. The WCC is an all-catholic conference, in fact, if you live out west it's sometimes referred to as the West Catholic Conference. I never claimed that all-Catholic conferences were my sole idea. It's obviously not new, but the combination of schools of like beliefs from different conferences forming a new football-less conference of all-sports, and that are of the Catholic belief was the original inception of this thread.

My point was that BC would not want into this because they would want a football conference. ND would only want in if they could keep there special deals with some other conference in football.

Nert, Try not to read more into what's said than is already there. In this way, we don't have to hear anymore Einstein parables. 8-)


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 7:48 pm 
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I deleted your cr*p about the Einstein story because it is not cogent to the discussion at hand.

Essentially point made was involving an all-Catholic conference combining remnants of CUSA and BigEast basketball, which if you bothered to check the record, I did propose back in an earlier post, .....

Nert, Try not to read more into what's said than is already there. In this way, we don't have to hear anymore Einstein parables. 8-)



Now THAT was completely pointless venting - especially since the post is obviously tongue-in-cheek.


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 8:57 pm 
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The West Coast Conference is not an all-Catholic conference since Pepperdine is affiliated with the Church of Christ. The West Coast conference slowly evolved into its current format, as former members include Pacific (Methodist), Seattle (Catholic), UC-Santa Barbara, Fresno State, Nevada, UNLV, and San Jose State.

What about Pacific returning to the WCC? The demographics of UOP seem better suited to the WCC and the former issue of conference membership for football has been rendered moot. If/when Idaho leaves, UOP will be completely surrounded by UC and CS institutions with much higher enrollments than their own.

As for the MAAC having non-Catholic members, one of its charter institutions was Army, so the Rider situation is not without precedent.

Prior to 1994, the Horizon League (MCC) was composed entirely of private-religious institutions, including Evansville, Oklahoma City, Oral Roberts, and Catholic schools like Dayton, Duquesne, LaSalle, Marquette, Saint Louis, and Xavier. Notre Dame was also a member of the MCC at one time, but its membership requirements allowed to remain independent in basketball.


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