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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2003 9:25 pm 
At some point, with the ever narrowing field of indepedents, i. e. Navy, Utah State, and Troy State; Notre Dame will grudgingly be forced to join a conference for football. Watch some attempt to bargain for special priviledges in the Big East--revenue, choice bowl selection, TV appearances, disproportionate home games, etc. It will not fly, the Miamis and WVUs will balk. With the Big 10, no special privileges will come whatsoever. Look for around 2006 whereby all independents will cease.
What would be nice is to see Penn State in an expanded Big East with Notre Dame and Miami.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 2:14 pm 
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Logic dictates that if Notre Dame joins a conference, it's the Big Ten. Purdue and MSU are always on the schedule. Michigan appears frequently and the match up is HUGE. Ohio State-ND has been another great match-up. There is a long series with Northwestern.

IMHO, I think there is an absurdity to think that the Irish's link with the Middle West is negligible. I don't believe those 80,000 seats are being filled in large numbers by people travelling from the East Coast. ND's top market (it is on the fringe of it anyway) is huge and stellar: Chicago. How do you think an ND connection would play in Chicago compared to a Big Ten connection?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 10:30 pm 
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Seems to me if Notre Dame screws around and misses the B10 and the Big East expansions in football, they could be forced into joining either the MAC or CUSA! Even Notre Dame will not survie as independent in football after 2005. I guess there is the ACC available for them also.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 9:41 am 
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ND choices are the BE.The decision is whether they become a full member or not for football.If they refuse full membership they will have some strong ties.The reason for this is the Money that comes to the BE if ND is part of its TV package.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 11:09 am 
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Quote:
Even Notre Dame will not survie as independent in football after 2005.


Why would ND not be able to survive as an Indy in 2005 and beyond? Notre Dame can do whatever it wants, it's...Notre Dame. Attendance will never be a problem, nor will scheduling.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 11:39 am 
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on Today at 12:30am, Wilkie01 wrote:
Even Notre Dame will not survie as independent in football after 2005.

Why would ND not be able to survive as an Indy in 2005 and beyond? Notre Dame can do whatever it wants, it's...Notre Dame. Attendance will never be a problem, nor will scheduling.

****************
More than any other reason: because Notre Dame cannot be sure, nor can it control, the way that the NCAA will restructure the BCS in the future. It is possible that a format (with more than one game) might be set that doesn't allow (or give easy access) to independents. Notre Dame, the only truly major independent, just doesn't fit.

Another reason: if more major conferences go to 12 teams, there is a good chance that the last 8 of the games they play will be in-conference and could seriously cut down the Irish's chance to playing major opponents a third of the way into the season.

ND's orginal desire to make it alone came from rejection of a bid to join the Big Ten back in 1930's (and undoubtedly there was an anit-Catholic bias at that time). ND figured to compete in the region, set up a coast-to-coast independent schedule. And it worked.

Unfortunately this is 2003 and the dynamics of college football are such that continuing to work is a question. There is a whole young generation that did not grow up on the "glory of Notre Dame" and its constant success (and if that were to continue, I'm sure it would influence the networks and lucrative t.v. money, as well.. I think that ND's hold on ethnic Catholics (such as Irish, Italians, and Poles) has weakened considerably aa European ethnics melted into the main stream. Schools like Michigan tend to get more focus in the middle west than does ND and even among Catholic football schools, BC is a formidable presence for ND.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:13 pm 
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So you're suggesting in the future, the BCS may not accommodate ND. That their aura is weakening and their following is dropping. I'm no where near a ND fan, but I can't see the BCS thumbing its nose to ND anywhere in the near future. They just bring in too much darn money!! If/when ND starts to lose its big-time TV contracts and no longer sells out its stadium, then maybe. Till then, ND will continue to have a voice and assure its place in the BCS.

In reference to scheduling, I continue to believe ND will not run out of high-profile teams willing to fit them in their OOC schedule. Even if all BCS conferences go to 12, there will still be OOC games. The only weekend ND would have problems scheduling is Championship Weekend.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 11:02 pm 
bdgz has a point. If the PAC 10, ACC, BIG 10, and BIG EAST all go to a 12 team format, scheduling may be an issue with Notre Dame. If teams like BC, USC, etc. considered dropping a game with ND, to accommodate expanded in-conference scheduling, it would prompt ND to move into the affiliation mix.
The only other long term, well recognized, independent is Navy. If they join somewhere, that will put more pressure on ND to make a commitment. I do think nothing much will happen before 2006. These football schedules are made so far in advance, it has to be a factor in retarding major moves. While Navy has not been winning much in recent decades, they still command scheduling respect, and have acted without urgency in terms of a conference home.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 11:31 pm 
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I agree that if all BCS conferences capped out at 12, some OOC games would be dropped in order to fill the conference schedules. But you'd still have 72 BCS teams with at least 3 OOC dates left on their schedule. I understand some schools will have cross-conference rivalry games (i.e UF/FSU), but still.... ND will get first pick'ens at the remaining OOC slots and most schools will bend over backwards to accomodate them.

Heck, I don't think Navy will suffer too much either. They'd still play ND, plus USAF and Army will try their best to keep the series' going. Navy may have to play more non-BCS teams than they'd like, but heh...they need the wins too.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 4:25 am 
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So you're suggesting in the future, the BCS may not accommodate ND. That their aura is weakening and their following is dropping. I'm no where near a ND fan, but I can't see the BCS thumbing its nose to ND anywhere in the near future.

Your point is good, but I see it more like a "blinking" issue than thumbing of noses issues. Yes, the BCS very much wants Notre Dame. But in an eye-ball to eye-ball situation, the Irish blink first. ND needs the BCS more than the other way around. If the BCS sets up a system based on conference champions (or even related to conferences in any way), why would they need or want to make an accomodation for someone (ND) playing by different rules? Do you honestly believe that if the BCS were to restructure in the way I suggested that Notre Dame WOULDN't go scrambling to get into the first conference it could find?



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 4:33 am 
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OK, forgive my stupidity. What is the procedure for using the quote boxes on top of the posts?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 6:37 am 
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Quote:
OK, forgive my stupidity. What is the procedure for using the quote boxes on top of the posts?

Bgdz, if you look in the upper right hand corner of the post you wish to reply to, you will see a little "page" with a set of quotation marks. Click on the little page, and you will quote the post.
Another way to quote a post is to type in the following formula: [ quote ] quoted material [ /quote ] Make sure to eliminate all spaces when copying my formula. :) [quote]


Last edited by dawgnduckfan on Mon Apr 21, 2003 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 10:48 am 
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the question should be asked - will the BE extend their
bowl affiliation with ND beyond 2005? IMO, i do not think
so. in recent years VT and WVU have been bumped
from the gator bowl in favor of ND. if the BE drops ND
from their bowl mix, then who does ND turn to? will
the BCS allow ND to be in the BSC bowl mix? i tend to
think that this will not happen, since all the BCS conf.
members will have a lot to say about this, especially
the B-10. IMO i think then that ND may be forced into
making a choice. B-10, BE or ACC.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 12:06 pm 
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mooseheadcane, totally agree. A lot of BCS members do not like the fact that ND can pocket all the BCS money and have the best of both worlds. Most all college football fans respect the tradition of Notre Dame. This is all about economics.

The other issue with Notre Dame remaining independent is minor bowl alignments. I would like to see the scenerio playout where Notre Dame takes a Cotton Bowl bert from the SEC or Big 12. This could happen as Notre Dame has used up its allotment for the Gator Bowl for then next few years.

I guess it may come down to a risk if Notre Dame wants to go to a bowl like the Motor City. Even that is not a gurantee in years that the Big 10 can qualify teams for all of its bowls agreements.




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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 2:23 pm 
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Essency,

I totally agree that if anyone can survive as an Indy, it's ND. But that's only if the football program stays healthy. Over time ND (admittedly the love-hate relationship with the Big 10 goes waaaaay back) has ticked off the Big 10, and recently they've ticked off memebers of the conference in which they participate in all other sports, the BE. ND has made some powerful enemies. If the BCS conferences go to 12, and the BE no longer allows ND to take one of its bowl slots, then ND will be walking a tight rope. Scheduling will be tougher, and even if they are allowed to particpate in the BCS or whatever it will later be called, the conference schools will increasingly resent their special privileges. If ND's program hits a bump in the road at that point, the program might never recover. I think the ND folks have gotten a dose of reality in recent years. They may still roll the dice and go it alone, but can they really afford to stumble if they are the only independent left, and no conferences are donating bowl slots to them? If they fall in a hole at that point, they could turn into the next SMU. Granted, ND will never fall of the face of the earth completely, but if fan support dwindles and bridges are burnt, they'd have problems. And keep in mind it's not liek the athletes that go to ND have all heard of Knute Rockne. If ND starts losing and they are an indy, they could be stuck in a hole for a long time. Tradition won't mean much to their recruits. Trouble like this may never come along, but I don't know if they can afford the risk, especially since they have other sports to worry about as well.

Given, ND may still say screw it and go it alone. They may figure that if they hit a rough patch, they can still join a conference at a later date. A BCS conference would be more than happy to rehab them. But they'd have almost no bargaining power at that point. Mighty big risk.

I think they'll join one of the two obvious conferences. Interesting to compare:

BE--Home to rivals Pitt, BC, great potential rivals in West Va, 'Cuse, Miami. May also be home to Navy by then. In BE could recruit Florida better. ND is one of the major eastern market draws (though much bigger in Chicago). Could cut a better deal with the BE than the Big 10. BE tv contract might not be what Big 10's would be with ND included, but ND could get more favorable terms. Realignment would make Miami/ND title game likely most years. Is already current home for other sports. Arguably (some of you will disagree) will have easier schedule in BE, due to more favorable scheduling. Will take less of a physical pounding than in Big 10. Growing resentment, but conference still eager to have them in all sports. Better institutional fit in BE.

Big 11--Home to historic rivals Penn State, Mich St., Mich, Purdue, as well as great potential rivalries with Indiana, Ohio St., Northwestern, Wisconsin. More of a fan base in Big 10 region, especially Chicago. TV contract for Big 10 as whole with ND would be better than BE (probably), but ND would have far less leverage in conference. Might get screwed in scheduling. Hard feelings already between Big 10 and ND. All the other ND teams would have to switch conferences.

Between the two conferences, I think ND will join the BE, if the BE plays their cards right, and if the ND guys aren't too stubborn. ND in the BE would mean the sky's the limit in the BE. The BE would be able to make a push as Clemson, FSU, and probably Penn State. If the Big 10 can't get a 12th member that they want, and PSU's recruiting continues to take a hit, I think the athletics department at least will look fondly at the BE. Sounds like the fan base is happy with the Big 10, but I wonder how they'll feel if they still play Mich St. at the end of the year and continue to lose recruits to BE teams. The grass will begin to look greener, especially with ND, Pitt, Miami, Syracuse, Rutgers, West Va, (and ideally FSU) all in the BE.



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