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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 2:40 pm 
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And if ND doesn't join the Big 10, who the heck will the 12th member be? If it's no Pitt (won't bore you guys with that again) and Syracuse, Nebraska, Iowa St., and Missouri have all refused their offer to join, then who's left? Seems like regionally Cincinnati is the only option, but that will never happen. None of the MAC teams bring enough to make it worth it either. That's the only reason I think something goofy like UCF isn't totally impossible.

I still think they'll make a play for Pitt, especially if ND blows off the BE. They have very few other options, and Pitt would beef them up in both major sports. Would also make PSU very happy.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 2:50 pm 
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lash - oh boy!!! would the poop really hit the fan if ND
bumped the B-12 or the SEC for a cotton bowl berth.
agree with ACCNole2, that ND has created some
powerful enemies.
i was not aware that ND has used up their allotments
to the gator bowl. that's good news.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 3:33 pm 
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Porbably we'll have a mix of all the outcomes discussed, and get something goofy like ND in the ACC.

I do wish a few switches would be made. I'd love Va Tech in the ACC, and Maryland seems like a BE school to me. But then I don't know many Maryland fans.

The BE's long range plan ought to be:

1. Snag ND, even if it means bringing in Navy.

2. With ND and Navy added, bump UConn down again in football. UConn has done well, but with Navy on board, they can let Navy take the football spot and UConn can concentrate on hoops. That would leave three openings.

3. Campaign for Penn State, FSU, Clemson, Maryland. If you only get two, bring Louisville in as the third. Louisville is the only BCS school that'd bring alot to the table. More than any of the others.

4. Rutgers is nice to have in the north, but in reality the conference would be beter off with a major contributor in one sport or another. Bumping Rutgers might be wise. More room for one of the teams above.

BE

North

Boston College
Navy (UConn in hoops)
Notre Dame
Penn State
Pittsburgh
Syracuse

South

Clemson
Florida State
Maryland
Miami
Virginia Tech
West Virginia

It's too bad for basketball that Louisville doesn't fit in. This would be one high quality football conference.

The early season could be anchored with huge divisional games like FSU/Clemson, Miami/Va Tech, BC/Pitt, and ND/PSU. There are number of older rivalries (Penn State/Syracuse, ND/Pitt) and new rivalries with great potential (Clemson/Va Tech, Clemson/Miami) within the divisions during the regular season. The mid season could be anchored with major cross-divisional match-ups like Penn State/FSU or Miami/ND. You could also build some killer last game weekends developing some primary rivalries with major market appeal like Miami/FSU, Penn State/Pitt, and ND/BC, three heated historic rivalries with conference title implications likely every year. The BE would be in competition for the best big game match-ups every year, and they'd have the best games at the end of the season. Then the title game would be even better, with Penn State or Notre Dame probably facing FSU or Miami in a new location like Washington, D.C. With those participants, it'd be the highest rated title game every year. And if Clemson and Pitt take over in their respective divisions, it'd still be a quality game, though Clemson might be more of a draw in the SEC.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 3:49 pm 
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We may be missing a big factor in whether ND goes into the BE or B10.....the real attraction to the Big Ten may be academic more than athletic as it would give ND an opportunity to be part of the conference's prestigious academic consortium which includes all eleven schools and the Univ of Chgo


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 7:44 pm 
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Quote:
Essency,

I totally agree that if anyone can survive as an Indy, it's ND. But that's only if the football program stays healthy. Over time ND (admittedly the love-hate relationship with the Big 10 goes waaaaay back) has ticked off the Big 10, and recently they've ticked off memebers of the conference in which they participate in all other sports, the BE. ND has made some powerful enemies. If the BCS conferences go to 12, and the BE no longer allows ND to take one of its bowl slots, then ND will be walking a tight rope. Scheduling will be tougher, and even if they are allowed to particpate in the BCS or whatever it will later be called, the conference schools will increasingly resent their special privileges. If ND's program hits a bump in the road at that point, the program might never recover. I think the ND folks have gotten a dose of reality in recent years. They may still roll the dice and go it alone, but can they really afford to stumble if they are the only independent left, and no conferences are donating bowl slots to them? If they fall in a hole at that point, they could turn into the next SMU. Granted, ND will never fall of the face of the earth completely, but if fan support dwindles and bridges are burnt, they'd have problems. And keep in mind it's not liek the athletes that go to ND have all heard of Knute Rockne. If ND starts losing and they are an indy, they could be stuck in a hole for a long time. Tradition won't mean much to their recruits. Trouble like this may never come along, but I don't know if they can afford the risk, especially since they have other sports to worry about as well.

Given, ND may still say screw it and go it alone. They may figure that if they hit a rough patch, they can still join a conference at a later date. A BCS conference would be more than happy to rehab them. But they'd have almost no bargaining power at that point. Mighty big risk.

I think they'll join one of the two obvious conferences. Interesting to compare:

BE--Home to rivals Pitt, BC, great potential rivals in West Va, 'Cuse, Miami. May also be home to Navy by then. In BE could recruit Florida better. ND is one of the major eastern market draws (though much bigger in Chicago). Could cut a better deal with the BE than the Big 10. BE tv contract might not be what Big 10's would be with ND included, but ND could get more favorable terms. Realignment would make Miami/ND title game likely most years. Is already current home for other sports. Arguably (some of you will disagree) will have easier schedule in BE, due to more favorable scheduling. Will take less of a physical pounding than in Big 10. Growing resentment, but conference still eager to have them in all sports. Better institutional fit in BE.

Big 11--Home to historic rivals Penn State, Mich St., Mich, Purdue, as well as great potential rivalries with Indiana, Ohio St., Northwestern, Wisconsin. More of a fan base in Big 10 region, especially Chicago. TV contract for Big 10 as whole with ND would be better than BE (probably), but ND would have far less leverage in conference. Might get screwed in scheduling. Hard feelings already between Big 10 and ND. All the other ND teams would have to switch conferences.

Between the two conferences, I think ND will join the BE, if the BE plays their cards right, and if the ND guys aren't too stubborn. ND in the BE would mean the sky's the limit in the BE. The BE would be able to make a push as Clemson, FSU, and probably Penn State. If the Big 10 can't get a 12th member that they want, and PSU's recruiting continues to take a hit, I think the athletics department at least will look fondly at the BE. Sounds like the fan base is happy with the Big 10, but I wonder how they'll feel if they still play Mich St. at the end of the year and continue to lose recruits to BE teams. The grass will begin to look greener, especially with ND, Pitt, Miami, Syracuse, Rutgers, West Va, (and ideally FSU) all in the BE.


About PSU-Michigan State at the end of year, ACCNole:
I have often wondered why PSU hasn't taken a good look at UGa's, South Carolina's, or even FSU's schedule, and got a clue as to how to make the schedule a little more fan friendly. PSU could play Pittsburgh right after they play Michigan State. I wonder why PSU hasn't thought about play Pittsburgh at the end of the year as an OOC game?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 1:31 pm 
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Joe Pa has been eager to rekindle the rivalry, especially as a conference game. Not sure why they don't do it on their own. My guess is Joe Pa is torn because he wants to game to improve Pennsylvania recruiting, and Pitt is torn because they have the upper hand now being the only big Penn team in the BE. More than almost any other change, I'd like to see these two teams in the same conference. It'd probably work out better across the board if they were both in a new BE.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 3:37 pm 
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Here's the reason ND is in the BCS (and always will be), even though it's a deal between conference commissioners:

If ND is left out and goes undefeated in a given year, a whole pile of AP writers would declare them the Nat. Champ even if an undefeated Michigan beat an undefeated Florida.

Their name value with those history-loving writers could create split national championships more easily than any other school. That's EXACTLY what the BCS never wants to happen.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 5:18 am 
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Maybe. But if the Michigan's (and the USC's and the FSU's) of the world decide that, along with excluding ND from the BCS, they'd exclude them from their schedule ('cause they don't think the Irish play nice nice in this independence thing of theirs) and Notre Dame manages to build an 11-0 record with the likes of Navy, Miami (of Ohio, mind you), San Jose State, North Texas, Holy Cross, South Florida, Slippery Rock, etc., who is going to care about what some sports writers vote?

Last I checked, Notre Dame is still on the same planet as the rest of us and is influenced by the rest of us; it seems at times that you end up going along with a lot of stuff if it isn't your own choice. Think that's not true? Check with a whole bunch of Big Ten and Pac Ten fans who thought they woke up with a real New Years eve hangover to Miami-Nebraska and Okla-WSU match ups in the last two Rose Bowl. No Jayhawks, Dorothy, but still...this isn't Kansas. Or Pasadena either. Things change.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 7:23 am 
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first the other big boys wont avoid ND> to much free pub. + they will play on nbc. Nd wont join BE and i doubt they will join big 10+1. The only thing ND might lose is the tie in to big east bowls. To be honest I think the BE would be stupid to continue that arrangement.. they are strong in bb and will do fine with no ND. If they were smart they would quickly before acc does anything cherry pick best no bcs school avail for all sports n dump ND. Louisville most likely that gives them 9 for fb which is much better than 8.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 9:39 am 
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The most important factor that gets lost in most of the post on this board is academics. There really is a reform movement out there in college sports. In Friday's USA Today Newspaper, the report of the SEC meeting at Vanderbilt to create a similar coalition of faculty playing a part in college sports similiar to the Pac 10 and Big 10. The meeting is to encourage strong academic performance in athletic programs.

This is the first real sign that the six BCS conferences are concerned with more that just how strong a football program is at a current school.

Schools like Vandervilt, Baylor, and Rutgers have other values to bring to a conference regardless if the football programs are not very strong.

If the the SEC and Big 12 put emphasis on academics especially graduations rates, they are not going to be any stonger in football than the Big East, ACC, Big 10 and Pac 10.

The Big 12 has the worst graduation rates of any of the BCS conferences. This is the same conference that a lot of the pre season folks are picking as the best football conference.

Notre Dame has a national reputation with academics and that reflects on all the 8 Big East schools regardless if they play on the football field.

This academic movement is more reason to believe the 6 BCS conferences will not change now or in the future.



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 10:44 am 
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I totally agree with you about academics being the driving force. If you take a conference like the Big Ten, it is FAR more interested in its image in its own mainly midwestern /Great Lakes region than on how it is viewed outside the area.

Why? It is the only conference in the country whose roots are in the 19th century, so it lives and breathes tradition. Academics have always been huge and for over a century, from Minnesota through Ohio, going to a Big Ten institution meant and means something.......with degrees that hold high value. Athletics have been kept in balance because the region has always had lots of pro teams, so the fanatacism in much of XXII and SEC country, where pros have been more limited, is less evident. People in this part of the country take more pride in Big Ten acadmeics than in Big Ten athletics.

Penn St. is aboard because it is a good fit, academically and athletically, if unfortunately lacking middle western blood lines. Keep in mind how long the Big Ten and Pac Ten were content NOT to be a part of the BCS and the possible inclusion in a "national championship game". What does that say about their need to project that No. 1 image that the other conferences deem so necessary?

Even the Big Ten's greatest football era, in the 40's and 50's speaks more to its value system than to a need to dominate the gridiron: that's when accepting black players was no big deal north of the Ohio River, while the SEC not only wouldn't let them onto the gridiron; they wouldn't let them into the classrooms.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 11:10 am 
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ND does not want an equal share formula.Thus,they will not join a conference that has equal shares.Therefore no B-10 for ND.The big factors are what NBC does with the ND TV package and what the BCS does with ND's tie in the BE for the BCS.The only conference that makes special packages is the BE.The only real question is whether ND becomes a total/full member of BE football or continues in a fashion which is less than a full member of BE football.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 7:42 pm 
Notre Dame may after 2006, re-consider and accept a Big Ten offer. That is only far-flung speculation and would depend on other BCS developments. However, if the Big Ten takes on another for a 12th member, Notre Dame will no longer be an option for that conference. I remember Penn State Coach Joe Paterno, at a dated time, saying something like (paraphrasing) "there are other schools that may be a better match for the Big Ten than ND". Personally, I view it would be a plus for ND to enter the Big Ten for the long-term benefits.
The Big Ten does have other options if they want twelve members. Pitt has a new stadium complex that it shares with the NFL. The drawback with Pitt is that their attendance, while good, is no where near Penn State, Michigan, Ohio State, or Wisconsin standards. West Virginia University, 50 miles away in Morgantown, often draws considerably more fans for football.
Syracuse has the Carrier Dome, and has a fairly solid fan base. They are removed from the midwest. Rutgers at one time (years ago) was talked about, but their football has struggled, and their way east location may not be as strong as first considered.
Cincinatti is not out of the "ballpark" if others are not an option. They do not have a huge following in football, but their location is near ideal.
Louisville would have a better chance at the BE or even the ACC, before the Big Ten would consider them.
West Virginia would be fairly competitive, but as an institution, it does not fit the profile of Big Ten schools.
Kentucky was once talked about, but it is considered "south" and they would not leave the SEC really. They do play Indiana regularly, tend to split, which shows whether Big Ten or SEC, their football would not dominate. Superb baskeball though.
Landing Iowa State, Missouri, or Nebraska are the logical choices for a westward move. But would any of them want to leave the Big Twelve? Not presently.
UCF would be interesting if a Florida inclusion was sought, but that has too many negative factors, including geography, tradition, and institutional profile.
Unless something is heard that suggests another direction, a Big Ten expansion would either involve Notre Dame or Pittsburgh, and remotely, Syracuse.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 9:09 pm 
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All B-10 Schools are AAU members.With exception of ND which has turned them down and is not an AAU member.The only other Schools that would be considered are AAU members Pitt,Syracuse and Rutgers and B-12 members Missouri or Iowa State.I believe that likely choices are either Iowa State or Missouri.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 9:15 am 
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If the Big Ten really cares about academics as much sports (and I believe it does) as well as being at the very heart of its midwestern roots, the real dream, impossible as it is, would be the resurrection of big time college football and hoops and a return of the only member to ever leave the conference, the Univeristy of Chicago. Of course, a snow ball in hell would have a better chance of happening.

Could you imagine the fun of a Northwestern-Chicago football/basketball rivalry to match what the academic rivalry they currently share (even if both were towards the end of the conference standings? It would be a midwestern Harvard-Yale or Cal-Stanford). Talk about two outstanding universities, practically in each other's back yard.


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