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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2003 2:33 am 
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nert, Ask yourself this. . . Why was Northwestern kept in the Big Ten, arguably the marquee football conference in the country, for so many years? Because, Northwestern is the only IA team that delivers Chicago.

Northwesterm too was a perrenial losing program (losing every game for five years at one point). Still the Big Ten kept them in and eventually they won (even winning one Big Ten championship and going to the Rose Bowl). How amazing was that?.

Over 90% of Rutgers Alumni (a 35,000 student state university with an additional 15,000 students on satellite campuses) live in the New Jersey sandwiched between NYC and Philly. I see them every day and assure you they are here and waiting to fill up the stadium and support a winning program. Problem has been that the program doesn't win and when the team loses so much, the fans won't come to the game. If and when the team starts winning, Rutgers can and will deliver the NYC market big time.

Keep in mind that as bad as Rutgers has been, every year their games are broadcast 5 or 6 times on the NYC television (usually the ABC affiliate).

On the surface it seems logical to compare Rutgers and Temple, but there are significant differences. Most notably, Rutgers has a 45,000 seat on campus stadium and outstanding facilities, while Temple is (for the time being) homeless and hoping to play in the Eagles new stadium. Rutgers is also the only game in town (no other IA schools in New Jersey). While Temple competes against Pitt and Penn State as the third IA school in its home state.

Both programs have struggled and I certainly hope Temple is about to suceed as well, but I give Rutgers the edge and believe the Big East (or any other conference looking to expand in the East) would be foolish to overlook the potential.

Aside from the fact that Rutgers has been a perrenial loser for the past 20 years (no argument there), before that it was quite successful playing (what are today) mostly IAA teams. This is a program rich in football history. Check you almanac. . . Rutgers hosted, played in and won the very first college football game ever played. While I know this doesn't mean anything today, but you are not looking at a program which just came on the scene. Their plan to move up to IA (over 20 years ago) was naive, not well thought out, and poorly executed. They have been recovering ever since. But as an alumnus who has followed this sorry team for many many years, I can tell you that they are much more committed mentally and financially (where it counts) today than ever before. One needs only to step onto the campus and take one look at the beautiful facilities to see that this team will not be as bad as they are today forever.

Sorry to go on for so long. I get a little defensive about RU.

Long live the Big East.


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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2003 4:19 am 
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The Carolina Four have two priorities, 1) don’t mess with their round-robin basketball schedule and 2) keep as much power as possible in North Carolina. The southern tier of the ACC has one priority, make the ACC an equal to the SEC. The Big East schools likewise, have one priority, SURVIVAL!

I think everybody is in agreement that there is going to be a major shake-up on the east coast whether this expansion effort succeeds or fails. With that, I present my scenario for the future.

I do not see this expansion happening, there is just too much give and take. Now is the time to make a shift. Perhaps if Clemson, Florida State, and Georgia Tech wanted to improve their conference lot they will leave the ACC for the newly formed East Coast Conference (the basketball schools started the Big East and will probably retain the name). However, geographically this conference is ungainly. Say what you want about media markets and the like, travel still represents a huge cost to athletic departments, perhaps the biggest. What about the rest of the ACC? I don’t think it would break the heart of the Carolina Four to be rid of the southern tier (maybe it would break a few hearts), but what if the Carolina Four, Virginia, and Maryland could reform the ACC with Syracuse, Boston College, Connecticut, and Rutgers. That is a second to none basketball conference with some decent football. It would keep its BCS slot! This group can maintain a double round-robin basketball schedule and the geography is contiguous without making substantial increases in travel costs. Also, the academics of all of these institutions are unquestioned (maybe they can make an academic consortium). Perhaps this group of ten is one that Penn State and Notre Dame would WANT to join. Now this pushes the group to twelve, but works better for the ACC. The six original ACC members will have a double round-robin basketball schedule within each division (making them happy because the original rivalries are maintained) and play the other six on a yearly rotating home-away schedule. Also, this will REDUCE travel costs with less trips north (or south, depending on your point of view), especially for non-revenue sports.

North: Syracuse, Boston College, Penn State, Notre Dame, Connecticut, Rutgers
South: Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, North Carolina State, Duke, Wake Forest

(This only if the two additional join, otherwise remains a ten-team conference with no divisions.)

What about the East Coast Conference (and my beloved HOKIES)? Well, given that I just gave the northeast schools away, Virginia Tech, Miami, Pittsburgh, and West Virginia combine with Clemson, Florida State, and Georgia Tech, but they are going to need a few more, including some that play decent basketball. Five more will give the required twelve for the conference championship game. This is also the humanitarian part because we are now going to include some good schools that are currently on the outside looking-in. I am thinking East Carolina, Louisville, Cincinnati, and Memphis. Three of these four play excellent basketball and all have competitive football programs. For my fifth, I say lets get South Carolina (this would also be a humanitarian effort). If not USC, then Southern Mississippi, but for the rest of this thesis I am going to keep South Carolina in my group. Now the East Coast Conference may not want to start any academic consortium, though many of these schools have excellent academic reputations (including Virginia Tech, which would be a fine academic fit for the current ACC). I do not want to put down any school either; the bottom line is that all of America’s institutions of higher learning provide excellent education opportunities for all people. This group of twelve is geographically contiguous, but it is a stretch. This is when a twelve-team format can actually reduce travel cost. As noted in the aforementioned ACC plan, the geographic divisions can be made to reduce long distance travel. Using a format similar to the Big 12, a division member would play everybody in their respective division and three from the other; I would suggest rotating in groups of three. In other words, each school plays a group of three one year, some home, the other(s) away. The next year, play the other three. The third year play the original three, reversing the home away schedule; likewise for the fourth year playing the second group of three. In this manner a school plays everybody home-and-away at least once every four years. Given the four-year nature of most degree programs, that is great for the students. I do not see any cross sectional rivalries that are a must every year; most of the important rivalries are maintained within the divisions (the same holds true for the ACC above). All other rules for twelve-team conference scheduling in other sports apply.

North: Virginia Tech, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis
South: Miami, Florida State, Georgia Tech, Clemson, South Carolina, East Carolina

I want to make just a couple of quick notes:

1) The notion of Miami being in a conference that plays in the northeast because that is where the students come from is BS. Kids will go to Miami regardless because it is cold in the northeast, while the city of Miami is warm, with an outstanding beach filled with scantly clad, and often topless, women.

2) Even if the proposed ACC did not include Penn State and Notre Dame, the proposed ten-team group would retain an automatic BCS berth. The reputations and/or recent success of North Carolina, Virginia, Maryland, Syracuse, and Boston College is too much for the powers that be to turn their collective backs on. Also, I have my own theory of relativity. Though there is no major superstar, i.e. a Florida School, some will rise to the top, others to the bottom, and most to the middle. The top performers, competing for the chance to go to the BCS will continue to improve, win some good out-of-conference games, and provide credibility.

3) Though the East Cost Conference does not have any major media outlets outside of Atlanta and Miami, I guarantee that this group would get an excellent media contract. After all, what major urban areas fall within the SEC? The answer is none other than Atlanta, and they have the best football contract of all. The ECC would also provide some outstanding basketball from Louisville, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Memphis, and Georgia Tech. I have to believe others will improve and an entire hierarchy would form (see my abbreviated theory of relativity above). The bottom line is that these universities have alumni across the country and most people who just are fans want to see good games. Blacksburg may not be a media center, but Virginia Tech football draws well on national TV. This would also be a good traveling conference, a slight notch below the SEC, but the bowl tie-ins, especially regionally, would be good.

4) Ramifications in collegiate athletics could range from minimal to far reaching. If everybody felt the itch to go to twelve, of course the dominos will fall. Again, my hope is that this could open more doors. If South Carolina joined the new East Coast Conference, this would allow Texas A&M to join the SEC. This would open the door to the SEC into Texas and would probably only work out with an agreement between the two universities and the SEC. The door now opens for BYU in the Big 12. I agree with many who believe BYU is a better fit for the Big 12 than PAC-10. If the Big Ten, having possibly lost Penn State, can convince Missouri and Iowa State to join, this opens the door for Texas Christian and Wyoming or New Mexico in the Big Twelve (Wyoming is a better geographic fit and despite recent poor showings, does have an overall positive track record in athletics). The PAC-10 can become the PAC-12 with the additions of Utah and Colorado State; thought Colorado State may be better in the Big 12 and Colorado a more receptive addition to the PAC-12.


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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2003 4:33 am 
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Scarletdude, Rutgers does have a lot of potential, they just need the right set of circumstances.


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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2003 11:02 am 
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No Rutgers needs an experienced winning HC.Not a BS artist who plays games by keeping inept and inexperienced coaching staff.These guys helped to build the WORST OFFENSE in ALL 1A .This poor HC hires a new OC but keeps the generals of the OL.Winning requires REAL CHANGE NOT just talk.


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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2003 1:51 pm 
Easy one first. New Holy Alliance:

Providence, St. John’s, Villanova, Georgetown, Seton Hall, Notre Dame, DePaul, Saint Louis, Marquette

New East Coast Conference:

North:
VT, UConn, Pitt, BC, Syracuse, WVU

South:
Florida St, Miami, Georgia Tech, Clemson, Louisville, Cincinnati

Reasonably balanced football divisions, equaling better championship games, and more bowl eligible teams. Will send two teams to the BCS most years. Louisville and Cincinnati primarily added for basketball purposes and to get the conference to 12. UConn gets the nod over Rutgers because of their strength in basketball and potential in football.

New ACC:

Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, NCSU, Duke, Wake Forest, Charlotte, Rutgers, Temple/Memphis

Good geographically fit conference, great basketball conference. The North Carolina four increase their intrastate power by adding Charlotte. Eight team schedule remains in tact in both sports with Charlotte easily being able to start a football team playing against four intrastate opponents. Memphis or Temple added depending on whether or not the ACC is willing to take a school away from the coast and with lower academic standards. Temple likely gets the nod as long as they are willing to keep their football program 1A.

CUSA is now an eight team, predominantly southern, all sports conference after booting Army as a football only member. CUSA gets to twelve by adding Marshall, UCF, Tulsa, and either SMU, La Tech, or North Texas.


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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2003 3:32 pm 
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Quote:
nert, Ask yourself this. . . Why was Northwestern kept in the Big Ten, arguably the marquee football conference in the country, for so many years? Because, Northwestern is the only IA team that delivers Chicago.


Illinois & Wisconsin get better FB & BB TV ratings in Chicago than Northwestern. They also get more fans at a NW game than the home team does. NW is still in because of it's 100-year affiliation with the conference and its many contributions to the CIC (Big 10's academic research arm).


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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2003 5:03 pm 
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Quote:


I agree with you on this one. Nert....tell us again why the SEC would want to drop SC?......Nert's reasoning makes very little sense.


I was just trying to incorporate another rumor that finds its way onto these boards - the SEC swap of two teams for Texas and TexA&M. I neither agree with that theory nor support it. As I had posted prior; I was just trying to incoprorate that rumor into the set of choices.

This board has a great many people that knee-jerk respond - rather than actually read posts. I've included it here in case you want to READ what I actually posted.


Quote:
I wouldn't suggest that they would leave a full BCS conference like the SEC for a basketball only (or at least a non-BCS) conference, but I'm trying to build in the rumors that the SEC may eject 3-4 teams (Vanderbilt, SoCarolina and Arkansas or MissState) to add other teams from the Big12. It's not the most likely scenario, I know - but if it happened, SoCarolina wouldn't get an invite to this new FB oriented conference and would have few other viable options. That's why I listed so many options - just a pool of who may be available to build a conference with.


Anyone that concludes that I'm suggesting that the SEC should or would dump SoCarolina obviously is not reading the post.


Last edited by nert on Sun May 11, 2003 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2003 5:34 pm 
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Quote:
nert, Ask yourself this. . . Why was Northwestern kept in the Big Ten, arguably the marquee football conference in the country, for so many years? Because, Northwestern is the only IA team that delivers Chicago.


That's easy - tradition.

The Big11 is soaked in tradition. Along with the RoseBowl and NotreDame, the Big11 is about the most traditional thing in college football. (And don't kid yourself, Michigan's Bo Schembechler tried for years to get Northwestern kicked out of the conference - long before their big losing streak). NW'tern doesn't offer Chicago to the Big11 in any meaningful way.

The fact that NW'tern (and Univ of Chicago for that matter) are still part fo the Big11 (or it's academic consortium) is because the Big11 isn't a recent formation of otherwise unrelated schools. The BigEast on the other hand is a kid in relation to the Big11 - even as a basketball conference.

As a football conference - and even more so as a conference with Rutgers as a "full time" member, the BigEast is still in the stage where its ties are basically either financial - or out of convenience or neccessity. If a team doesn't pull it's own weight, the BigEast would sooner cut their loses than stick with it. Want proof? Ask yourself these questions:
  • When has the Big11 ever been rumored to be splitting?(the answer is never - as far as any serious rumors go)
  • How many times has the BigEast been the subject of a break-up rumor? (the answer is since the very inception of football)
  • How many teams has the Big11 kicked out in their 100+ years? (the answer is zero).
  • How many has the BigEast FB kicked out in their 10 years? (the answer is one).
  • How many teams have left the Big11 to play for some other conference (the answer is none)
  • How many teams have threatened to leave the BigEast if they could just find a better deal? (the answer is 3-4 of their 8 - depending on how you count)


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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2003 7:08 pm 
Rutgers and UConn have indeed upgraded their facilities and need not be overlooked when considering the mix. It was Rutgers that played the very first college football game vs. Princeton.

Temple is more complicated. Their problem has been poor attendance, lack of good marketing, a need for training facilities upgrade, and not being able to recruit well, even though the Philadelphia suburbs (40 mile radius) are full of prime recruits (Penn State, Maryland & others grab them). The campus is in an urban environment and what is deemed as a rough neighborhood. The have big stadiums at their disposal, Veterans and Franklin Field, but attendance is dismal and just looks bad with so many empty seats for games. When they plan a "big name" opponent, the visitor fans often outnumber the home fans. Doesn't look good! Other urban schools somehow can do a better job at recriuting and image making. But really, Temple may not have been trying hard enough, and the Philadelphia business community were not putting in enough to support them.


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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 7:14 am 
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Quote:
Easy one first. New Holy Alliance:

Providence, St. John’s, Villanova, Georgetown, Seton Hall, Notre Dame, DePaul, Saint Louis, Marquette



Holy Alliance!! Now that's funny!!

As expected, we're beginning to reveal common ground. Oddly enough, though, it sounds like Rutgers may become the "hot property;" with both the new Eastern FB conference and the re-drawn ACC pursuing this 95 lb. sports weakling for the sake of the NYC TV market!

In review of the more recent posts, how many others agree to these as "given facts" should the realignments begin:

1. West Virginia is prefereable to Marshall, and both will be taken only as last resort.

2. Clemson would go willingly, meaning South Carolina would probably not want to go and/or not even be invited, again for duplication of territory.

3. PSU and ND, likely not needed nor interested so long as they're stable and paid elsewhere.

I've also heard, for this thread, differing opinions regarding where 'Cuse, UConn and BC end up. Where would they be better off, again assuming the realignment occurs; ACC, ECC or the BE?


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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2003 11:08 am 

Quote:
Here's mine:

FlaState, Clemson, GaTech band together and ask Miami, Syracuse and BC to join them (they are all in agreement that they would like to be with each other). Now we need 2-6 other FB schools, and I suggest they ask these:

  • Virginia Tech
  • Pitt
  • Maryland
  • Virginia
  • UConn
  • NCState or WestVirginia

I'm thinking they lean towards NCState so as to not jump a state - and the market it could bring. I'm just not sure if NCState would join (is BB or FB more important to them?).

North: BC, UConn, Syracuse, Pitt, VaTech, Virginia or WestVirginia
South: Miami, FlaState, GaTech, Clemson, Maryland, NCState or Virginia

========================================

ACC: Duke, NorthCarolina and WakeForest (and maybe NCState) then add BB schools. I'm assuming they know they do not have the FB draw to bring in FB powers from the area. They need to add 5-6 schools - some added for academics - some for basketball. They will mostly be from the southeastern states. They like the 9 team round robin BB conference schedule - so how many they add depends largely on whether NCState stays or not.

This need not be a FB playing conference - although 7 of these schools play I-A football now. There is no way it would be a BCS conference.

I think the list could include:
  • Temple (basketball - large market)
  • UNC-Charlotte(basketball - in the area)
  • UNC-Wilmington (basketbal - will require a name change to just "Wilmington" to avoid confusion)
  • Vanderbilt (good academics - dropped from the SEC as it adds Texas/TexasA&M
  • South Carolina(regional - dropped from SEC with Vanderbilt)
  • Rutgers (they're available and bring a significant potential market)
  • GeorgeWashington (DC market)
  • Richmond (good basketball - right area)


The additions of UNC-Charlotte and UNC-Wilmington gaurantees the NorthCarolina control of the conference - it will not expand without the North Carolina schools being behind it.

========================================

The BigEast adds Marquette, DePaul and St.Louis to give NotreDame a midwestern set of opponents - and keep the Catholic BB school theme going. That gives them 9. Xavier, St.Joseph's and Dayton are possible additions.


What confusion?? ???

UNCC already calls itself Charlotte so UNCW does not need to change its name or anything else to appease the stupid.


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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2003 11:47 am 
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Quote:


What confusion?? ???

UNCC already calls itself Charlotte so UNCW does not need to change its name or anything else to appease the stupid.


As it was written the first time before the "stupid" tried to interpret a post before being capable of actually reading a post: the confusion would be between UNC-W joining a conference with UNC. UNC is not going to allow a second team called UNC-anything into the same conference as them.

There was no need to point this difficulty out with UNC-Charlotte because as the blind squirrel managed to trip over: they already have made that change.

Next time learn to read.

U B um Jean-yus!


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