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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 7:24 pm 
I've said this for months, so nothing new here. The BE's timing is too slow and they can miss the strategic moments. Talk of BC going ACC would have been majorly nullified had the BE re-configured in September. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out L'ville and Cincy need to be added, and that by adding DePaul and Marquette, is to please the bb only schools in keeping the conference together as a effort to avoid the negative alternatives involved in splitting. This excreting around with Notre Dame "will she or won't she" is disgusting. Rather than getting on their own knees to do their "Hail Marys' ", they are enjoying salivating sycophants on their knees before them, and then after hearing their flattering pleas, convey "no-no, not yet, but keep an opening for us if we ever have to render you the priviledge of associating with us".
The best the BE can do is raid two C-USA "all sports teams" and two "bb teams". A high price Commissioner with a legion of staff figured this out, but has not bound the agreements, and lacks the confidence in the decision to withhold a timely announcement?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:26 am 
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DNC, excellent analysis. Here's what I have heard . . .

The commissioner's office wanted to have this wrapped up quickly, as we have seen from the ever changing deadlines. The presidents have bogged down. For reasons enumerated at length elsewhere, the football schools could not agree to split. West Virginia, Pitt, & UConn voted to split; BC, Syracuse, & Rutgers voted to stay with the basketball schools. This is the stalemate that held up any serious progress. The only good news for the football schools is that a defection by BC would break the stalemate & perhaps lead the football schools to re-evaluate their position on an immediate split. Strange that Syracuse & BC were prepared to go to the ACC but not willing to split from the basketball schools.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 10:19 am 
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Friarfan, interesting point on fall out from possible move of BC to ACC.

I tend to agree with you on a possible split could emerge if BC does in fact join the ACC.

UConn basketball coach favors a 10 team all sports conference. I am in total alignment with him. Smart coach.

WVU and Pitt favors a 9 to 10 team all sports conference without Florida schools.

After Louisville and Cincinnati, WVU favors East Carolina, and surprising Memphis (maybe to pis@ off Pitt).

Pitt may resent Memphis because of the bb coach not committing to his hometown Pitt.

Pitt and WVU favor keeping Temple.

Rutgers has always been afraid of a possible split could leave them out in the cold. Can't say I blame them for being concerned.

Syracuse wants its cake and eat it too. If I cant be in the ACC, then I want my old basketball buddies back. May not be able to have it both ways.

BC, what can we say about this school. Back stabbing, traitor, benedit arnold, all sorts of things come to mind.

Can BC ever be trusted? ACC should be forced by the NCAA to accept BC.

This could lead to the following 10 team all sports conference.

Pitt, WVU, Temple, Syracuse, Rutgers, UConn, Cincinnati, Louisville, East Carolina, Memphis or Marshall

The MorM would be iffy. I personally think Marshall would be the better fit. Really would depend on what team the other nine members would prefer.

Marshall would help to preserve the BCS and Memphis would make the conference stonger in basketball and provide a possible Liberty bowl bid. Toss up.

Could BC to the ACC be a good thing for both the BE and ACC? in this expample the answer is a sounding yes.







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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 11:53 am 
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Interesting. Very interesting. I can almost understand Syracuse's vote to remain in the BE, as they stood to lose a lot of revenue from NCAA tournament appearances, I believe. Like you said, Lash, they seemingly wanted to have their cake and eat it, too.

If the football schools are then more likely to split upon a BC exit, a couple more questions come to mind:

- Exactly how is it handled? Each school leaves on it's own or do they act as a group?

- If they do act as a group, they could counter ND one last time. Seems we established before that in the event of a split ND, all sports or not, would be better off with the football schools than the basketball schools. Knowing the football schools were going to seperate from the basketball schools no matter what, might ND throw their vote with the football schools and allow them to carry the BE name or dissolve the conference?

- And if that is an option, would they not want to do that before any invitations to other members have been extended, thereby denying the basketball schools any chance to retain the BE name and rights?



Boy, Mike Tranghese must not be sleeping well, lately!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 12:20 pm 
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Gunnerfan, I am not sure Mike Tranhese really wants a 16 team conference to manage. Although he has stated a non committment to either group, I think his heart is with the basketball schools.

I dont think there is a question the football schools would go as a group. If the split had occured back in the early summer, anything would have been possible.

I look at the Big East football conference as having 8 teams including Louisville and Cincinnati. Losing BC would be like the ACC losing South Carolina serveral years ago resulting in a 7 team conference.

If a split is to occur, taking one last look at Notre Dame may be a good idea, however, it should be an all sports or nothing. Since BC is apparently basing its decision on leaving due to Notre Dame not committing all sports, this is probably not going to happen.

So maybe the best all around decision is to go to 10 all sports.

Pitt, WVU, Temple, Syracuse, Rutgers, UConn, Cincinnati, Louisville, East Carolina, Memphis or Marshall or Notre Dame


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 1:22 pm 
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Interesting discussion, guys . . .

One of the agrguments often advanced in favor of the Big East keeping an automatic BCS bid is that the BCS could not abandon the large population centers of the Northeast. What are the large population centers of the Northeast? Boston, New York, Philadelphia, & DC.

Well, DC is already in the ACC. The Big East has booted Temple/Philadelphia. If BC leaves for the ACC, the Big East is left with a foothold in the New York market - Rutgers, a program that can't win & that doesn't draw any interest in this most populous of Northeast metropolitan areas.

So what would the BCS be abandoning? Syracuse? Pittsburgh? Morgantown? (Morgantown is Southern anyway.) No slight intended to thise fine communities.

All of this certainly suggests that the Big East should reconsider its expulsion of Temple so there can be some legitimacy to their claim of representing the Northeast. . . Unless it is the Big East that is abandoning the Northeast in favor of the large population centers of Tampa & Disnyworld/ABC. ;)

From a certain point of view, one could say that the BCS would already have the Northeast - ACC brings DC/Baltimore (Maryland) & New England (via BC), Big Ten brings PA/Philly (PennState) . . . & Notre Dame brings New York/ New Jersey. ;D


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:37 pm 
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Friarfan, I really don't think any conference has Washington DC, Philly, and New York City for college football. All three of these towns are NFL. Washington DC really does not care that much about MD or Va and the Redskins are the only football team in town. Maybe the reason that Georgetown plays 1AA and St John's drop football. Maryland located within 25 miles of two large metro areas has a hard time filling its stadium, however, ever try getting Redskin tickets.

If the Big East or ACC were banking on large eastern TV markets to improve TV contracts, the ACC got a nice surprise of lower football contracts.

If I were one of the current Big East football presidents, I would not worry about the BCS so much. I would concentrate on becomming the strongest regional conference that is possible for all sports.

The benefits of having a regional conference has more to do with rivals and travel for teams and fans than TV contracts. It probably helps with TV contracts to have a regional based conference regardless of the market size (i.e. SEC).










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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 7:17 pm 
Friar, Lash, Gunner, et. al. - great discussion!

I concur that if BC does indeed leave for the ACC, that may force the BE fb contingent to move in a more constructive way.
Temple could easily come back into the scenario, simply replacing BC in the reconfigured BE plans--adding L'ville and Cincy, with Marquette and DePaul for bb. From a financial standpoint, there could not be a mountain of difference between Temple and BC (BC is no Penn State--financially speaking).
It would seem that UConn and Syracuse would be on the same page; odd isn't it Lash?
If the fb institutions split, certainly Marshall should be stronly considered. If there is an Ohio Valley expansion with Cincinatti and Louisville, geographically, Marshall fits right into that sector.
Memphis may be a problem. I remember hearing in earlier news discussions that geography is a problem, and that Memphis would not be considered. They are near "southwest", bordering Arkansas and Mississippi. They are rivals of schools such as Southern Miss, UAB, and Tulane.
I think it would be prudent to at least consider a couple of other MAC schools. I know some have attendance problems, but schools like Northern Illinois, Toledo, Miami of Ohio and BGSU are distinguishing themseves. I know Pitt Coach Walt Harris would not want to hear that, knowing that he was reluctant about L'ville and Cincy.
I could see schools like Rutgers and UConn would not be excited about adding a lot of midwest/mideast teams, but schools like WVU and Pitt could find themselves the nucleus of a re-structured conference.
Anyway, even with losing BC, the BE does have options (even the Navy and Army stuff). The BE Commissioner, Presidents, and AD's need to be bold, decide, and "let go" of what once existed.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 7:20 pm 
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Lash, I agree 100%. I think the BE should focus on building and developing the strongest all sports conference possible and let TV take care of itself.

Right now no one would watch Buffalo and Temple, but if they were both in the top 25 the entire eastern corridor would watch.

The BE is trying to build a made for TV fball conference the same way they built the bball conference. That strategy worked 25 years ago but it will destroy the conference today. I think the BE will ignore programs with the potential to elevate their programs if they are not in a solid market, that is a huge mistake. They are also ignoring programs in decent markets but are not winning right now, another huge mistake.

If VT were available today, and they were in the same state they were 12 years ago, (a two win season and on the verge of firing Beamer), I honestly believe this group wouldn't consider them as a viable expansion candidate. Until three years ago VT was treated as a second class citizen by the BE, (they finally were admitted as full members three years ago). Hopefully 5-10 years from now we are not looking at programs wondering why they were never picked up by the BE.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 7:31 pm 
May I add that since the BE will turn to extracting from C-USA, East Carolina could be an excellent candidate to include. This campus would be a better geographic fit with the BE rather than C-USA anyway. It would give the BE a school in the heart of ACC country. Hey, there is not alot to pick from, and IMO, for now, it may be more strategic than going deep into Florida or far/extensive into the midwest or Memphis.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:45 pm 
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I agree that the Big East should not make their decisions based on market size. Myself I like the idea of expanding into more football crazy areas to help build the recruiting base to help the Big East schools get better. To be frank, Temple really has gotten a fair chance to improve their program and they have not. I think the only reason some schools want to keep them is so they can have an Automatic W. If you look at the area of the Big East , there are some areas that should really be looked at for expansion. The state of Ohio is a good example. Even if they add Cincinnati i think the state is a very untapped state recruiting wise for the Big East. Ohio State is the only major program there. Cincinnati is ok but they really don't impress consistantly. I think some of the MAC schools should be really looked at for potential. Ohio U and Miami Ohio would be my top two picks. If put in a BCS conference they could tap the Ohio recruiting scene and get some of the talent from Ohio State. Memphis would help in the same way in Tennessee.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 8:42 am 
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Right on the money, Arpmany. Ohio is the 7th most populous state in the country - 11+ million population with only Ohio State as a BCS rep - & great high school football. Toledo's record over the past decade has been bettr than Cincinnati's & Cincy's attendance has only been a little better. Miami has also performed better than Cincy in that period & I like their academics, but they have attendance problems. It's hard to know whether Northern Illinois is a flash in the pan. They haven't done anything in the past even close to what they are doing this year, but they are another school from a big state with only one state school in BCS + Northwestern. I don't think that Bowling Green is worth considering.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 8:43 am 
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Actually, if the BE football schools were to split and go for 12 members, and assuming UL and UC are already on board, I think (the BE would) be better off with the best of the MAC: Toledo, Miami (O), Marshall and NIU. NIU may be too far off, but otherwise I think those schools would respond well to moving up the conference ladder, plus you're still holding a more defined region, and one that suits Pitt near perfectly, I might add.

In JW10631's response to the above, the idea of MAC schools in the BE might dilute some of the recruiting and market appeal for the likes of Pitt and WVU. But, I'll counter with the notion we've emphasized on building a regional identity and fostering fan travel. Should the BE football schools acquire 3-4 MAC schools, then the MAC would either a) regress as a whole to 1-AA, or b) partner with the SunBelt in becoming the clear bottom-dwellers of 1-A. Dissolve some of the competition, and begin a cross-over battle with the Big 10, and perhaps years from now you'll begin to chip away at the recruiting edge of that conference, especially PSU.

None of this will happen so long as the BE schools make a committment to trying to succeed in football. This does not mean they have to field 4 Top 10 schools, but they have to make sure that Temple, Rutgers and company have the facilities, market their programs and fill their stadiums as best as possible. Name recognition is one factor for getting on national TV, the other is having rabid fans showing out for the program through thick and thin. That's why Marshall, VT, Oregon and the like are now popular programs.

Converesly, if the BE schools will show this level of committment, most any option they choose can succeed. If Cuse, Pitt, WVU and UConn continue to play solid ball, it won't matter who places 9th and 10th in their conference.


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