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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 5:54 pm 
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The ACC is doing nothing but banking on a FSU/UM matchup in December, and it's a d**ned shame. First, they disrespect geography in general by adding BC (who has to cross CT, NY, NJ, & DE to get to the nearest ACC rival), and then they fudge it all up this way:


Division A:

    Boston College
    Clemson
    Florida State
    Maryland
    North Carolina State
    Wake Forest


Division B:

    Duke
    Georgia Tech
    Miami
    North Carolina
    Virginia
    Virginia Tech


Sorry, but this is stupid. It demonstrates nothing but the simple fact that the ACC didn't want to be a better conference, but instead they just wanted to make all the money off two FSU/UM matchups per year. How stupid of them to do things any different than the SEC, who has been and will always be the richest conference in America.

When the SEC added two, they went to two markets they'd never had before. The ACC, in adding three, has only added one real market, albeit a big one (Boston, or as we pronounce it down here, Bawst'n).

And Bowden (Bobby) is retiring soon, and there are 1A FL schools popping up left and right, which means FSU won't be "FSU" forever, meaning the game will be UM/VT, who are in the same division, who won't play for the conf championship. Had they gone geographic, UM & VT could play for the marbles.



In case you're curious, had the ACC gone with pure geographical location:

North: BC, Duke, MD, VA, VT, WF
South: Clem, FSU, GT, UM, UNC, NCSt


Last edited by lsutootnanny on Fri Oct 17, 2003 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 7:41 pm 
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LSUtootnanny-
I afraid I don't see as big a problem with the ACC divisions as you do. First, no one would ever, EVER, put Duke in one division and North Carolina in the other, not even for chess. Second, putting WFU and Duke in the same division weakens that half traditionally. Finally, it's impossible to break into North/South or East/West like the SEC since four schools are in NC. It's much harder to break it into directional lines. As for the motive, the ACC has openly said the wished to strengthen football and add revenue with a championship game. So you are right on that point. BTW, I've been to a game at LSU and your stadium and crowd really rocked! Our hope is to have future crowds like the SEC in football to go with our basketball successes.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 9:00 pm 
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The thing that irritates me is that they sacrifice all that travel money for the chance of a FSU vs. Miami/VT ACCCG.

If I was one of the "nine dwarfs," I'd feel insulted.

As far as Duke/UNC in different divisions, there is an arrangement of constant rivalries, similar to the one the SEC currently has:

Maryland - Virginia
Clemson - Georgia Tech
NC State - UNC
Wake Forest - Duke
FSU - UM
BC - VT

Had they put Duke/UNC in different divisions, it's obvious that they'd still play every year.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 11:00 pm 
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From what I have read, the real reason is that FSU and Miami insisted. They want to play but don't want to compete with each other for a division title. FSU is afraid of having Miami just as they were afraid of joining the SEC. They want something they can dominate. Miami doesn't want to compete with FSU and doesn't want too many of its games in the deep South. I imagine GT, Clemson, WF and NCSt. weren't too enthused about having to beat out both Miami and FSU to win a division title.

I suspect the silliness of their divisions will eventually lead them to go geographic. IMO the correct geographic division would be Duke, WF, GT, Clemson, FSU, Miami. Duke and WF offset the two FL schools.

If they want to split Miami and FSU, a southern division (it is said the further south you go in FL the further north it gets) with FSU, GT, Clemson, NCSt., WF, VT and a northern division with MD, UVA, UNC, Duke, BD, Miami---moving the Techs south and MD and BC north-makes more sense to me. Instead they split everybody up in an entirely arbitrary arrangement.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2003 1:15 am 
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-IMO, their best chance to get 2 teams in the BCS is to have Miami and Fla. State in the same division. If Miami loses to Fla. State once they still got a great chance of getting in the BCS. But with them being in different divisions they will probably end up knocking one another out of the BCS bye giving each other Two losses or a season ending loss. It would not happen every year but it certainly will happen. Lets say Miami is
11-1 and wins their division and Florida State is11-1 and wins their division. Then Miami wins champ game and Florida State loses. There would then be a good chance depending on what happens elsewhere that Florida State does not get a BCS bid. Where if they were in the same division and one finishes 12-1 and the other 11-1 they probably both get bids.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2003 9:24 am 
I can understand how the ACC divisions unfolded. There is no perfect way to divide here, and the result may be about the best they could come up with. As pointed out, there are 4 NC teams and a pure north/south split obviously would make one division clearly superior for fb. They can't realistically do the SEC or Big12 model.
Cross over games will be important. I expect the NC schools will want to play each other frequently.
While FSU?Miami are indeed powers and may be so for a considerable time to come, the era when Florida schools nearly completely dominate others may shift in the direction of more balance. It is not impossible to vision that five, six, or ten years from now, NC State, or Clemson, or Virginia, or Maryland, or Ga Tech, could reign as ACC kings for a stint. No one is going to predict the sudden demise of a Florida school, but parity may gradually evolve. There were once days when Miami and FSU were not so hot and days when Ga Tech was feared. With the emergence of CFU, SFU, FA&M going 1-A, and maybe new programs of Florida Atlantic and Florida International moving forward, top prospect recruiting in Florida may get more crunched. With the 85 scholarship limit and possibly other regulations coming down in the future, these massive advantages some places have may get streamlined.

Surely, it can't be only money; the other ACC teams have to have some idea that they can reasonably hope to compete with Florida schools for the future.

With expansion, the dynamics change. If w/l records the last five or so years will predict the results for ten or fifteen years from now, then one may be peering through a narrow scope.

There were days back when schools such as Kansas State, Oregon, Oregon State, Virginia Tech, Marshall, and Texas Christian looked like they would be bottom feeder forever. Things change.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2003 2:23 pm 
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I agree with LSUtootnanny on this one. Didn't the SEC have to split Auburn/Alabama to go geographic?

What I really don't understand in the ACC is Miami's division. Miami made a big deal ablut having to bring Notheatern partners with them, so you'd think that they'd insist on being in a division with BC & Maryland so they'd have one trip to the North each year, right? ???


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2003 9:44 am 
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Not much I can add here as I pretty much agree with everyone.

1) Should be more geographin reasoning, encouraging other schools to play for the title.
2) Miami and FSU should be in the same division! a) Why risk losing to the same school twice, b) other schools stand chance to move up the conference ladder as one of these schools trips up.
3) If not by geography, Miami and BC (who wanted each other, anyway) should be in a division rife with major airports; GT, NCS, Maryland and Wake.

What I will offer is this; I'm reasonably sure that this divisional line up is not set in stone, just for the next two years. Obviously, during that time frame FSU, VT and Miami stand to be kings of the ACC hill, in which case they wanted to try to ensure the best schools meeting for the championship game, thinking Miami/FSU II would be a decent TV draw. All this may be moot if BC cannot moce to the ACC for a couple years, though.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2003 10:19 am 
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Don't know why they couldn't have just gone this route:


Division A:

Florida State
Clemson
North Carolina State
Wake Forest
North Carolina
Duke


Division B:

Miami
Georgia Tech
Virginia
Virginia Tech
Maryland
Boston College

You get BC in the same division as it's 3 closest ACC foes, as well as traditional Miami. Georgia Tech is added so that at least it's a Metor airport for BC road fans.

For Div. A, you get the NC 4 together, and FSU-Clemson for the other 2.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2003 11:04 am 
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I think that part of the expansion deal for the ACC was to break up the Big 4 (NC schools). Over the history, these four have sort of controlled things conference-wise. This shows some sacrifice on their part. Breaking up the NC schools also keeps NC enthralled in both division races. I know NC State was told early on they would be split form UNC and would be "partnered" with them, just like with Miami and FSU. We understood it was for the good on the conference. Besides, if any of us ever get really good in football, we could meet for the title game! 8-)
Also, splitting up Miami and FSU made for better scheduling in our stadiums. If you are one of the other 10 teams, you get a home date with Miami or FSU every other year! It also keeps Florida (recruits) interested in both divisions! Va Tech was also already part of some ACC schedules as a nonconference game, so I think that played a small role in the formatting.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2003 11:16 am 
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Here is the original division information from the ACC:

http://theacc.ocsn.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/100103aae.html



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2003 10:48 pm 
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Quote:
I think that part of the expansion deal for the ACC was to break up the Big 4 (NC schools). Over the history, these four have sort of controlled things conference-wise. This shows some sacrifice on their part. Breaking up the NC schools also keeps NC enthralled in both division races. I know NC State was told early on they would be split form UNC and would be "partnered" with them, just like with Miami and FSU. We understood it was for the good on the conference. Besides, if any of us ever get really good in football, we could meet for the title game! 8-)
Also, splitting up Miami and FSU made for better scheduling in our stadiums. If you are one of the other 10 teams, you get a home date with Miami or FSU every other year! It also keeps Florida (recruits) interested in both divisions! Va Tech was also already part of some ACC schedules as a nonconference game, so I think that played a small role in the formatting.


You are going WAY to deep on this one.

Expansion was to increase Football strength, preserve the FB TV deal, and set up a FB cahmp game.
No way was it so political as "break the strength" of the NC schools, especially since 2 of those schools had voted for some sort of expansion throughout the process.

Miami & FSU are in different divisions because ABC wants the champ game to be Miami vs. FSU as many times as possible. The rest just filled in to try to even up the travel for all of the schools. "Everyone gets Miami or FSU" may have been a selling point on the divisions to the members, but it was all about the preferred champ game matchup.

VA Tech's deals with ACC schools became moot the minute they joined the conference. Part of conference membership is that the conference sets the schedule not the school.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2003 11:44 pm 
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king cal, i really like your divisional setup and never thought of it that way.

here is how i would have done it

Division A
North Carolina
Duke
Maryland
Virginia
Virginia Tech
Miami

Division B
NC State
Wake Forest
BC
Clemson
Georgia Tech
Florida State

gtech deserves to play fsu and clemson every year as they are big rivals, which is what i dont like about the current set up. fsu and miami should be in the same division imo, but since they wont this is the best that can happen. if the time ever comes where they can be then switch miami with bc and make bc and miami cross divisional rivals. that would make the most since to all parties involved.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 9:03 am 
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EarthX,
I never meant that expansion was "to break up" the Big Four, I simply meant that the NC schools understood that by expanding to 11 or 12 they would be place in different divisions. That was just part of the growing pains of expansion. Breaking them up, makes the most sense strategically. Everyone wants presence in Florida and everyone wants FSU or Miami on their schedule. It helps tremendously with revenue. We knew about the split in divisions back in the summer at NC State. We also knew we would be partnered with UNC. It's not fair to the rest of the ACC to lump the NC schools together. NCSU has a great rivalry with Clemson (for example). UNC with UVA.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:28 pm 
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Quote:
-IMO, their best chance to get 2 teams in the BCS is to have Miami and Fla. State in the same division.


I absolutely agree.

Also, the ACC should be preserving the Miami-BC rivalry. Didn't Miami want BC for the rivalry and the northeast presence? What happened.

My divisions, for what it is worth. No fixed cross overs necessary. Cross division would be one home, one away against everyone over a four year cycle. American would be stronger initially.

American:
Miami
FSU
BC
Maryland
Virginia
Va.Tech

National:
Wake
Duke
UNC
NC State
Clemson
Ga. Tech

Another alternative with better balance and some fixed cross overs:

American:
Wake
NC St
Florida St.
Miami
Ga.Tech
Clemson

National:
Virginia
Va.Tech
Maryland
BC
UNC
Duke

Fixed cross overs:
BC-Miami
UNC-NC St.
Duke-Wake

The remaining schools would play higher rotation of cross overs among each other.


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