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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:09 am 
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I think common goals are the most important factor. The Missouri Valley was the first "superconference" with 12 teams in the late 60s, early 70s. There were thoughts it might become the premier basketball conference. But Louisville, Cincinnati and Memphis had higher aspirations than Creighton, Drake, Bradley and Wichita St. The creation of I-AA was what eventually killed the football conference and the remaining schools were split between divisions. West Texas St. dropped football and now plays in the Division II Lone Star Conference. North Texas dropped down to the Southland before moving back to I-A. Drake dropped fb scholarships. Wichita St. dropped football. Tulsa became a football independent before eventually ending up in the WAC and CUSA. New Mexico St. became an independent. Creighton, Bradley and St. Louis didn't play football. It wasn't geography that broke up the conference.

The Southern Conference never left its roots. Schools just kept out-growing it.

The WAC was about $ and bad planning. They expanded first and then afterwards figured out ESPN wouldn't give them more $ because they were under contract. When the split occurred, the MWC wasn't under contract and so they got the bigger $ contract. The WAC also split up some rivalries. The more recent split was a indirect result of losing the MWC schools in the middle of the conference.

The Sun Belt is splitting apart and the Big West fb conference dissolved due to geography, but theirs were marriages of convenience that everyone knew was temporary.

Memphis, UL, UC, Pitt and WVU do have common goals. ECU, UCF and Marshall are more regional schools who emphasize football and don't fit in as well. I recommend ECU because I think the BE needs a school with a strong fb following that would grow in the BE. Right now, the BE has a bunch of disparate institutions. 3 eastern Catholic schools who don't play football, 2 midwestern Catholic schools who don't play football, 1 eastern Catholic school that plays non-scholarship football, 1 eastern Catholic school that plays I-AA scholarship football, 1 midwestern Catholic school that plays big-time football outside the conference + 1 prestigious flagship state school in I-A, 1 prestigious urban grant in I-A, 2 large flagship state universities in I-A, 2 large urban grants in I-A, 1 large regional state research university in I-A and 1 prestigious private school in I-A.

We all agree that the BE needs to strengthen its ties to each other. I think the best way is to split from the schools not playing football, expand to 10 to fill in some gaps from losing the bb schools and then eventually expand to 12 without going way outside the NE footprint. SG, you emphasize the NE footprint, while to me the gaps (markets, bb strength, fb strength, fan support, sports sponsorship-in Title IX days eight is not enough-schools are dropping sports) are more important.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:26 am 
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Lash-regarding your 12 team alignment:

<<BE North:
Syracuse - Fordham
UConn - UMass
Rutgers - Delaware

BE South:
Pitt - Temple
Cincinnati - Louisville
WVU - South Florida (Georgetown >>

The South is fine, but I don't think Pitt and WVU would want to be separated from SU, UConn and Rutgers. The problem with the north is 3 I-AA scholarship, 1 I-AA non-scholarship and Rutgers. It would take a very long time to get everyone up to speed.

It is going to be interesting to see how UConn does with an upgraded schedule. I do think UConn and USF will do fine in the long run, but it could take a while. 3 more I-AA schools and Rutgers just make the conference too weak for too long. In addition, Fordham has been unable to get out of the bottom of the A-10 in bb. They are in a good conference but have failed miserably after moving up from the non-scholarship Patriot League. Delaware has rarely had good bb teams. The BE, IMO, needs to remain strong in bb to get attention. And in fb, I can see adding one more I-AA school (UMass my 1st choice) or a weak program with strong bb (Temple), but not 3 I-AA schools and a weak program.

Perception is important, so even if Delaware, Fordham and UMass moved up first and proved themselves, the BE would still be viewed as weak because of all the new I-A teams.

I do agree with you on South Florida. I understand why the BE added them. They wanted FL recruiting and the next potential "Virginia Tech." However, with UCF, FAU, FIU and USF, there are enough Florida teams you don't need them in the conference to schedule them. I would have preferred someone closer (Temple, ECU or Memphis).


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 12:32 pm 
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Bullet, first of all we are in agreement today. Let me just add some clarity here as the 12 team conference post this week for BE is only for fun discussions and not necessarily what I think would be a good idea or actually take place.

Agreed that Pitt and WVU will want to continue and play old eastern rivals of Syracuse, Rutgers, etc.

I am in full agreement with how BE expanded and keeping at 8 football progams was very good. This eliminates the need for the above concern as every team plays each other.

Personally there are two ideal alignments for college all sports conferences and one is 9 and the other is 12.

The current BE of 8 members works with the current alignment of fb and bb schools and allows round robin for football. This is very important for the football schools having 3 new members to build strong rivals.

If a split were to ever occur, the BE most likely would only go to 9 members to minimize cost and allow for round robin in both football and basketball. The MWC was very smart to stop at 9 members. If the conference comes to that level in a few years, the conference would probably expand with the best possible 9th member that is performing the best in all sports regardless of location.

For now, not sure it will happen, my recommendation would be to have the conference split into two 8 team divisions aligned by football and basketball schools for all sports. This would come very close to an all sports conference.









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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:11 pm 
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*Post 1 of 2*

^Okay, lets look at these 4 "urban grant" universities:

U of Pittsburgh
U of Cincinnati
U of Louisville
U of Memphis

The "Urban Grants" located on "The River".

Pitt, UL, UCincy, and UMemphis are all not exactly the same institutions. They are all "Urban Grants", that is true. I might put UL, UCincy, and UMemphis in together, but I wouldn't put UPittsburgh in with them and say they all have common goals and history. This is why:

Pitt is an Urban Grant as I described. Its a major research university as designated by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania as one of only 3 institutions in the Commonwealth of PA. The other being the flagship U of PA -- Penn State, and the other being Philly's Urban Grant -- Temple. It also has this moniker -- "Major Research University" as it is one of 60 members of the Association of American Universities (AAU) -- 1 of 3 such institutions in the current and future (2005-) Big East (the others are Rutgers and Syracuse). As described above, these AAU institutions include all of the Ivy League schools except Dartmouth, and all of the 11 Big 10 universities, as well as multiple members from other BCS conferences.

Not only is it a prestigious university and a very historic one, with its establsihment in 1787. Its history is a mix of it being a public research university of the Commonwealth (since 1966), but also was, for nearly 2 centuries, a prestigious private university. It is only 2nd to UCLA among all BCS members in its academic reputation of schools that are "Urban Grants".

Now, Pittsburgh is very similar in respect of its partial long history as a "private", as well as its partial history as a "public" with the following Universities:

*University at Buffalo -- State University of New York (established in 1840's as a private medical school, then in 1962 became a "public" as part of the new State University of New York system)

*Cornell University -- One of the 8 private universities in the Ivy League -- its still primarily a "private". It was contracted by the State of New York in its early years to be the Morrill Act of 1862 Land Grant University. With this, 4 of its colleges and schools are public and are part of the State of New York:

College of Agriculture
College of Human Ecology
School of Industrial and Labor Relations; and
College of Veterinary Medicine

*Rutgers University -- The State University of New Jersey. This was originally founded as a private university in 1766. It was very similar to Cornell, as it was the Morrill Act of 1862 Land Grant University for New Jersey, but remained being primarily private, until 1946, when it became a state university. So it too had a very long history as a private - almost 200 years like Pitt, before becoming a state u.

*Temple University -- very similar history as a prestigious private before becoming one of 3 public research universities for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania -- Philly's Urban Grant and sister institution to Pitt -- Pittsburgh's Urban Grant.

*U of Delaware -- The University of Delaware is partially "private", while also being patially "public" as the state's Morrill Act of 1862 Land Grant University. This even remains the case even to this day. It has a role as the state's primary research university, but the board that runs the university is a private board, they are not elected by the people of the state of Delaware, nor are they appointed by the Governor or the state government of Delaware. It was orginally called Delaware College.

Now, as far as the followings role and history of the three other "River" universities that we are comparing here to Pitt:

*University of Cincinnati. It was established in 1819, the 4th oldest university in the "Midwest" or "Northwest Territory". It was for many many years owned by the City of Cincinnati as a municipal university -- a very rare type of ownership today, as Washburn University of Topeka, KS is the only very prominent of municipally-owned universities of today. Another one was the University of Omaha which was acquired by the University of Nebraska in 1968 and now is known as the University of Nebraska at Omaha.

In 1977, it began its affiliation with the state of Ohio as a state university. From reading its history, it almost seems the City of Cincinnati still has some partial ownership in it today. Its establishment as a significant institution of learning didn't happen until the 1880's. It has been a significant research university since the mid-20th Century. It is by far of the 3 universities that we are comparing here to the University of Pittsburgh the most comparable to Pitt, but even then doesn't share any "private university roots and long history" or the AAU membership that Pitt has.

*University of Louisville -- This was established in 1798 as Jefferson Seminary. It had an on and off history throughout the 19th Century, as it open and then closed on more than 1 occaision. It wasn't until the 1890's that it began its continious history as a university that remained operating and began to prosper. Its history is actually longer than the University of Kentucky. It retained the name of the University of Louisville in 1846, but because it opened and closed operations a couple of times after that, it really didn't retain an operating university until 1890. It is designated by the Commonwealth of Kentucky "to become a nationally-recognized metropolitan research university", with a focus on the Louisville metropolitan area.

*University of Memphis: This is what the history says about the University of Memphis
Quote:
History: The University of Memphis was founded under the auspices of the General Education Bill, enacted by the Tennessee Legislature in 1909. Known originally as West Tennessee Normal School, the institution opened its doors Sept. 10, 1912, with Dr. Seymour A. Mynders as president.


Its mission is the following:


Quote:
Mission*

The Mission of the University of Memphis is to:

Provide high quality learning opportunities in the many areas of modern education activity, traditional course work, professional education, and engaged scholarship.
Pursue creative discovery and dissemination of new knowledge through research, artistic expression, and interdisciplinary collaboration.
Transfer knowledge and collaborate through active engagement with the range of community stakeholders and institutions.
Provide leadership and service to address social, intellectual, economic development, and scientific challenges.
Embrace a diverse student population engaged in personal enrichment, lifelong learning, pursuit of successful careers, and meaningful participation in a global society.

We are committed to furthering this mission and to insuring that the University is recognized among the leading metropolitan universities in America.


*Cont. on Post 2 of 2*


Last edited by sportsgeog on Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:18 pm 
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*Post 2 of 2*

So, you can see that the University of Memphis has a dramatically shorter history when compared to U of Pittsburgh, it also was established as a Normal school but grew out of that to become a "metropolitan" university -- or "Urban Grant". This history is the most similar to San Diego State University and San Jose State University which both started out as "Normals" and became eventually "Urban Grants". There is no private history to this university. While being an "urban grant" it is the most unlike Pittsburgh. It is like U of Louisville and the U of Cincy, but neither of those two started out as Normals nor does U of Memphis have as long of history as U of L or U Cincy.

To me, the link of the Big East from the traditional Private and Public/Private and Morrill Act of 1862 universities among the Football schols in the Northeast Footprint to the Urban Grant of the Ohio Valley wing are both Pitt and WVU. WVU is a flagship state university and the Morrill Act of 1862 Land Grant University for West Virginia and doesn't have a lot in common with the U of Memphis, as it is a "urban grant" with a shorter history and originally a "Normal" -- its only commonality is that both it and WVU are both public.

Pitt is an "urban grant" and a very pretigious research university with a long history of being a private. Its is so much like so many universities in the Northeast, both in prestige as well as this shared "private" and "public" ownership, heritage, and roles. It has this in common with Rutgers, Temple, Cornell, U of Buffalo--SUNY, and U of Delaware. Memphis is the most like San Diego State and San Jose State, and has the most in common with U of L and U Cincy, but not exactly. But, again both of those universities were chosen because the were the closest to the "Near-Northeast" footprint, that weren't too bad academically and had good athletic programs. They don't have the common heritage of the 5 Northeast institutions of the Big East, but they fit quite a bit better, both in geographic proximity and slightly more in history than Memphis.

So, I think academics, as well as maintaining geographic footprint, as well as athletic performance, as well as following, as well as market are all equally important in conference alignment. You are right that the Big East has somewhat disparate institutions. But really there is a commonality of "private" ownership that runs through all their institutions except for the 2 of the 3 land grants (WVU and UConn) and 3 Urban Grants (U of L, U Cincy, and USF -- which were chosen as the most advantageous to maintain the Big East as a conference at the time). But the Land Grants aren't really out of place in this BCS conference or for that matter any BCS conference as they make up 80% of all BCS schools and they are major research and flagship institutions which fit the best of any "publics" with major presitigious private universities. I don't think the Big East necessarily wants to pick up more institutions that closely resemble U of L and U Cincy, thes are just the exceptions. U Memphis is way out of the footprint and has the least in common with any other Northeastern institution.

Memphis is also a 4th Tier University, and U of L is the only one of those right now in the Big East, but it is borderline as some years its 3rd Tier in academics. Memphis stays in the 4th Tier category and doesn't move.

ECU is an "Historic Normal". They are also a 4th Tier National University. They do have a good following. But academics is not on par with most of the Big East and they are the 5th team in North Carolina. Wouldn't be like any school in the Big East. UCF same thing, only more like USF, but UCF is also 4th Tier.

So if they choose to expand at a later date, they will have more time to choose, which gives them ability to plan, and choose, balancing all of these components for the consideration -- Northeast Footprint, Athletics, Academics, Market, and Following.

Bring Back the Chickens to the Big East: You may laugh at U Delaware as far as perception. But 20 years ago, people would laugh at the Virginia Tech Hokies. Now they are in the ACC. The Blue Hens bring back the chickens to roost in the Big East, just like the Hokies did, only they are blue. But they do perform well in D-1AA, just like Marshall did. But the perception here may also be market. They have a strong following. The perception is that Delaware has a very small population. Well, they have 800,000 people and growing. How much different would that be when compared to U Memphis? Does Memphis have much of a following outside of the Memphis metro area? Even Louisville, which has the strongest following of any team not currently in the BCS, outside of BYU, Utah and Air Force, even they don't have a huge following outside of Louisville metro area in KY, according to some accounts on this board. U Kentucky's following covers the whole state. Memphis metro has 1.2 million people, that may very well be its market, and outside of it there's more of U Tennessee following in western Tennessee heading all the way east to Knoxville and beyond in that state, except Vandy's following in Nashville and elsewhere. 1.2 million people is not that much bigger than 800,000. Not only that, U Delware IS in the Northeast footprint. So what kind of market advantage is Memphis? Its not like the Northeast universities, its not near the Northeast Footprint, its market advantage is only very marginal compared to U Delaware.

Bring Back Miami to the Big East -- Miami U of Ohio that is:If the Big East wanted to choose a school in the Ohio Valley wing of its conference, I think that Miami U of Ohio would be the best choice. It is an excellent university academic wise, 2nd Tier National U, and considered one of 8 "Public Ivies". Its a very long-term rival to U Cincy, and it along with Ohio U penetrate the statewide market of Ohio the best of the MAC schools, after Ohio State's following. Its not only near the Cincinnati market of 2.1 million people, but also very close to the Dayton market of 1 million people. Would also have a big following in Cleveland. I think with this schools history along with Ohio U's history-- both dating back nearly 200 years, and predating Ohio State by 60 years in history, these two universities were the schools that served as the primary institutions of higher learning in the state of Ohio the longest in all the state, so they almost act both-coupled together as primary institutions in the state, both in the early years and as a statewide institutions of today. So thus, probably has the most of all the institutions other than Ohio State that has a statewide following. For these purposes, I think they would be a better choice, because of proximity to the Big East, rivalry with U Cincy, and its athletic performance, esp. as of late, its following statewide to penetrate all metro markets, not just regional and of course its academic standing, would be more advantageous than Memphis, IMO.

I do think that its important to know and pay attention on how future alignment might lead to a split in the conference, based on the geographical location of the university. If its not a great geographical location, and its academics aren't good, despite its athletic performance, the geography does affect it if it decides later that it thinks it can get a better deal elsewhere. if this is what it thought when it was in the MVC, and this is what it thought when it went from the Metro to the Great Midwest, then I would think that would be how they would view any potential realignment that comes their way latter on. Couple with this this growing westward wing with U of L and U Cincy, the images of the "Eastern Side" of the WAC "Outposts" do come to mind.

If you need an extra team to play, because of the need of a 9th members, play some partial schedule with Army and Navy. They are not quite a fit for a BCS league, but they can serve as an extra team to satisfy that "9th member need".


Last edited by sportsgeog on Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:38 pm 
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Delaware admin does not want 1A.
Memphis is deep south school,by geography and they belong in CUSA.The same reasons that kept ECU out of the ACC will keep them out of the BE.The real 12 BE member conference will include movement out not a full breakup.For example Providence a 2500 student college and StJohns and Seton Hall and another bb school who cannot make it in a bigger league.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:15 pm 
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Quote:
Delaware admin does not want 1A.


That's true. In 10 or 20 years it is possible that they may change their mind.


Quote:
Memphis is deep south school,by geography and they belong in CUSA.


I totally agree!


Quote:
The same reasons that kept ECU out of the ACC will keep them out of the BE.


I agree. Their following is their strongest advantage, but being the 5th school in NC and 4th Tier USNWR ranking, this makes them not as good as a candidate. ECU as an institution is not like any other school in the Big East. Their immediate market is somewhat small too, but as a region in eastern North Carolina, it may be a mid-sized populated region, but they most likely don't have a statewide following because of UNC, NCSU, all the other regional "Normals" and "Urban Grants" in the state (UNC branches, Appallachian State, Western Carolina, NC A & T, etc dillutes their ability to transcend all these regional followings to get a statewide following like UNC, NCSU. + Duke and Wake Forest add to this competition.)


Quote:
The real 12 BE member conference will include movement out not a full breakup.For example Providence a 2500 student college and StJohns and Seton Hall and another bb school who cannot make it in a bigger league.


I'm not sure what you're saying. Could you explain?

Private schools with a small-to-mid-sized enrollment can have a fairly decent following, depending on fan following potential, athletic performance, and market. I'm not sure what kind of attendance Providence College gets or Seton Hall or St. John's, but Creighton U, a Jesuit school in Omaha, NE in the Missouri Valley gets fairly decent following and they are like 6,000 in enrollment and probably only 4,500 in undergraduate enrollment.


Last edited by sportsgeog on Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:53 pm 
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Simply,in five years some of the current bb schools might find the cost of maintaining a top notch athletic program too high to remain.Simply put they they move to more competitive leagues.Or if a split occurs,some bb only schools like a Villanova or Goegetown may join ND the football teams and form a new league.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:40 pm 
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tigersharktwo, to some extent I agree with you on this subject.

Big East schools that do not play football or play div 1aa are not going to make the same revenue as the football schools.

Football revenue not only helps with football expenses, however, help pay the bills for other sports and facilities.

The USA Today had very good series a few months back on this subject and this could impact the future balance of the BE.

Villanova may regret moving up to 1A when the BE offered the same deal to UConn.

This could be offset with the BE bb schools sharing the same areans as the pros, however, there is an expense to renting these facilites. St Johns for example has a mid major on campus arena and paying to play in MSG with out a good team for now is going to get very expensive without sellout attendance.

It is interesting that all the football schools own the bb arenas with most on campus and Georgetown, Depaul, Marquette, Providence, Seton Hall play in rented bb facilities. Both Villanova and St Johns play in rented areas for the very big games.

Of course an arugment could be made that Pitt and South Florida play football in rented stadiums.

Once the dust settles with Temple, Villanova should make a quick move up to 1A and rent Lincoln Field or risk the chance of being left behind.




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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 7:09 pm 
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^Thanks TS2 and Lash for that explanation.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 11:26 pm 
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Quote:
Providence a 2500 student college .


Just to set the record straight. Providence College has just under 4000 full time undergraduate students. Including graduate students, etc., the total enrollment exceeds 6000. Very similar to Wake Forest.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 11:32 pm 
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I'm not sure what kind of attendance Providence College gets .


Providence College pretty routinely sells out the 12000+ Providence Civic Center (or comes close to it) for Big East games. Their games are the major sporting event in the city of Providence & they have enormous community support there.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 11:37 pm 
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I've seen a lot of comments about the BE agreeing to stick together for 5 years. While the comments seem quite reasonable, I don't recall seeing any quotes from any AD or President stating that. Anyone hear this from an authoritative source? FriarFan?


Sorry for the delayed response, Bullet. Been a busy week. I'm sorry that I can't site a source right now but I do recall comments from Big East officials to that effect when the new membership was announced last fall. I'd have to go back through the archives to run this down.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 11:40 pm 
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Providence College pretty routinely sells out the 12000+ Providence Civic Center (or comes close to it) for Big East games. Their games are the major sporting event in the city of Providence & they have enormous community support there.


^Thanks FriarFan.

Thats sounds better than most schools. PC is also the origins of the BE. Why in the world should they be asked to leave? I guess I am confused with Lash and TS2 now. I understand the possibility that the fb schools split from the bb schools in 5 or more years. Not that it will for sure it will happen, just as a possibility. But I don't understand why Providence, with the kind of support that FriarFan has stated here, should necessitate going to the A-10, even before a Big East split might happen.

The sharing of revenue between Big East fb and bb schools is different, yes. But is this a fairness issue with revenue? I don't see how PC would be better off, necessarily by leaving the Big East for the A-10. Maybe I'm wrong.


Last edited by sportsgeog on Thu Jul 29, 2004 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 7:14 am 
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Does Providence offer a full range of sports ? No,it has the least sports offered in BE.Does it have the money to remain competitive in BE?No


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