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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 7:22 am 
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http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04211/353501.stm

The conference will have seven teams this season, then add three members -- Cincinnati, Louisville and South Florida -- next year. Tranghese said there is a chance the conference could add a fourth team -- a football-only member -- to making scheduling easier, but that isn't a priority.

wonder who the fourth will be?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 7:45 am 
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^Its hard to imagine who a football-only member could be. A CUSA member couldn't just leave for football only and stay in CUSA in all other sports. That would be a betrayal, and CUSA wouldn't accommodate that. The MAC wouldn't allow it either. The Atlantic 10 is fairly maxed out with 14 members when they add Charlotte and St. Louis. There's really no room for a CUSA team to leave that conference, be the football-only member to the Big East and join the A-10 for their other sports.

There are now no available independents either, except Army and Navy. Maybe both or they combine to do it. I suppose a Sun Belt team could sacrifice its membership in the Sun Belt, seek another conference for its other sports and participate in the Big East as a football-only member, but that's seems highly unlikely and the Big East wouldn't be interested in a Sun Belt team. The only one the closest to their footprint and somewhat competitive is Troy State, but they are a very small town team.

This leads back to the only other available independent that I forgot to mention that is already in their footprint and already has significant experience with the Big East -- Temple. They may very well be the only candidate available other than Navy and Army.

Norte Dame is an independent, but they want freedom with their scheduling. They may play Big East members when they choose to do so, or when they feel the desire to, but they are not going to be a constant opponent to the Big East, according to the way they have been with their scheduling. I suppose its possible they could agree to play 3 or 4 Big East members per year without being a member, but that's probably way too much committment for them.

Maybe they should ask that U Hawaii become the football only member. Why not? They could be a member of some other western league for other sports, but a Big East member in football. June Jones said in an interview that it really doesn't matter which conference they are in, as they are already a big distance to all conferences on the mainland that it really doesn't matter. So why not the Big East? Some CUSA teams are hoping that they get picked by the Big East and they are way out of the Big East footprint. If they are going to out of their NE footprint, might-as-well go so far out that there wouldn't be any ambiguity of the footprint. A true outpost of all outposts. Hawaii's FB program has been better than almost all teams in the CUSA except for USM's maybe. So why not.

I'm really kidding, but in a way I'm not about the NE footprint thing.


Last edited by sportsgeog on Fri Jul 30, 2004 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 8:15 am 
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Hi Everyone

A few questions for you all...

1) How long has the current admin been at UDel and has previous administrations been anti-1A? I ask because I feel that the anti-1A sentiment has been present for ages there and I think it would be more telling if the sentiment was shared across administrations

2) Is UMass releastically an option? UMass would be great for the reasons stated previously (ie, bringing MA back to the BE, etc), but I know others have posted how financially dire things are in MA/UMass system and I received the impression that the likelyhood of change was in terms of decades

3) What was the D1A upgrade offer from the BE exactly? Was there a time limit? Or is Villanova welcome to accept it whenever it wants? I would think that if BE officials honestly thought or held hope for 'Nova, then UDel would never really be an option

Regarding smaller private schools in the BE, ie the Catholic schools.... why shouldnt any of them remain competitive? It's a matter of desire and priorities... There really is not much difference between say, G'Town, St Johns, PC, BC, Holy Cross, Fordham, and Fairfield. Mission and sizes are relatively similar. They are different in athletic success however they have chosen different priorities and places to spend their money... They all have wealthy and supportive alums who do give money... I think that almost any school can find a niche and compete... there may be compromises to be made and that means they may or may not choose football etc but they could







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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 8:58 am 
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Georgetown is a top rated academic school which includes a great medical school.It sttands head and shoulders over all other Catholic schools except ND.It is a very wealthy school also.Schools such as Seton Hall ,St Johns and Providence do not match up to a Georgetown or ND.Providence is a division 3 school athletically with a division 1A bb and hockey team.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 10:31 am 
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Georgetown is a top rated academic school which includes a great medical school.It sttands head and shoulders over all other Catholic schools except ND.It is a very wealthy school also.Schools such as Seton Hall ,St Johns and Providence do not match up to a Georgetown or ND.Providence is a division 3 school athletically with a division 1A bb and hockey team.


Georgetown is not a wealthy school. There have been a number of articles as well as internet chatter about financial problems at Georgetwon in the past couple of years due to bad investments. I'm sure they'll survive just fine but there is a financial pinch right now. (Sorry I don't have a source handy right now so interested parties will have to do their own search.)

UPDATE (3:00 PM EST) - I guess that wealth is a relative thing. When I think of "very wealthy" colleges/universities, I think of places like Harvard & Yale with endowments 10 to 20 times that of Georgetown or of small colleges like Williams, Wesleyan & Amhest with tiny enrollments & a limited mission. Even a university like Notre Dame has 4 times the endowment of Georgetown.

As of the fiscal year 2003, Georgetown's endowment is 78th among 700+ universities surveyed, placing it in the top 12% of this group & certainly higher than the othe group of schools mentioned by TS2. Given Georgetown's size, mission, & facilities, however, this does not seem like an enormous amount of wealth. As I stated before, there have been numerous concerns voiced within the Georgetown community regarding the state of their endowment. But you can judge for yourself on the link below.

IMO, Georgetown is a university for wealthy students, but that doesn't make it a wealthy university.

http://www.nacubo.org/documents/research/FY03InstitutionListingforPress.pdf


Last edited by friarfan on Fri Jul 30, 2004 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 10:45 am 
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Is UMass releastically an option? UMass would be great for the reasons stated previously (ie, bringing MA back to the BE, etc), but I know others have posted how financially dire things are in MA/UMass system and I received the impression that the likelyhood of change was in terms of decades


UMass is not realistically an option at the present time. I see some similarities between where UMass is & where UConn was 20 years ago. UConn added the Hartford Civic Center as an attractive venue & had enough success in the 70s to make them a desirable market for the Big East when it was formed. They were middle of the pack in the Big East in its early years & then began to decline. This decline was exaccerbated by the loss of star player Earl Kelley to academic ineligibility among other problems. Alumni were upset & dissatisfied. They used this anger to form a study group. A major report was published, serious support was generated, fund raising was enhanced, Calhoun was hired & the basketball program was on its way. The hiring of AD Lew Perkins led to serious promotion of I-A football as a serious possibility. Encouraged by their basketball success, the UConn community grabbed for the brass ring when the Big East offered football membership.

UMass had even greater success in the 90s under John Calipari than UConn had in the 70s & they have fallen much further - & without the Big East safety net. Alumni are disgruntled & have made noise about I-A football. The university has responded with a no-can-do attitude. Not a good sign. But if the aluni remain undaunted & realize that fundraising - not the university budget - is the key, they can still turn it around the way UConn did. Some encouragement from the Big East would help. They have a choice to make. They can go either way depending on their motivation to get back to the 90s in hoops & ahead to IA football in the future.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:21 am 
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Any school in a non BCS conference would be foolish to not consider a move to the BE for football only. The Big East has guranteed four years of BCS membership to build on. This is more than enough time to get football back to major conference status level. Factor in the almost certain 12 team regular season schedule and the Big East should be able to pick up at least one major BCS OOC game per team each year.

I dont think the BE would consider a MAC team for football only.

Central Florida would make a very good pick as a football only member.

East Carolina would almost certainly move to the BE for football only membership if an offer existed.

Marshall would be ideal as a regional football matchup with Louisville, Cincinnati, WVU, and Pitt.

Army or Navy or both may be possible for the BE as football only members.

If Temple could somehow make a bowl game this year, Temple would most likely get reinstated into the conference as a 9th football member.

I cant think of anything that would be more helpful to the Big East than to have Temple somehow make a splash this year and go bowling and the Big East keep the school.







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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:55 am 
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UMASS- Doubtful
Delaware- Possible
Army-probable
Navy-probable
Marshall- Good choice but justed moved so doubtful
East Carolina-Would piss the ACC off
Central Florida-Great Rival with South Florida but just like marshall just moved.
Villanova-Maybe if the cut the same deal as with UCONN
Temple- I say don't kick them out keep them


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 12:30 pm 
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^With all due respect Lash, where would those CUSA schools go for their bb and other sports?

Would UCF go back to the Atlantic Sun? Would they go back to the MAC? Would these conferences take them back after they had been betrayed, all in an effort to help out UCF and the Big East?

Or how about Marshall? Back to the days before '97, back to the Southern (SoCon)? Back to the MAC? Do you think the Southern or the MAC will accommodate Marshall after they betrayed them? All in an effort to help out Marshall and the Big East?

These teams, just like U Memphis and TCU would be called "migrating nomadic disloyal opportunists" by switching conferences all the time. Understandably, yes, teams try to shoot for the best. But maybe if they stay, it might be possible that they could make the best possible if they stay where they are, given some additional global change or dynamic in college football. I'll explain this in a second.

How about ECU? At least they have stayed in one conference for 5 years. But they weren't originally taken in by CUSA when CUSA began in 1996. They didn't join until the 2nd year, and were football-only members until just the last couple of years. They were really pleading their case to get into CUSA, and now if a Big East football-member opportunity came their way, they would go for it? Where would their bball and other sports go? CAA? SoCon? Just so they can help out ECU and the Big East? Not likely.

Okay, this gets at a bigger point about why I think the Northeast Footprint is very important to maintain for the Big East, given some of the possible developments being discussed for the BCS. You may think that I am just dragging the Northeast Footprint importance on and on, but this is a very important reason, in addition to travel considerations and regional identities of the conference, as well as "being out front" in a geographic region for media and TV coverage. All of those are compelling enough to keep your conference geographically tight, and not to have more than one "outpost", and not to become a "conference of outposts". But here is a reason that geographic footprint for the Big East, or for that matter the geographic footprint of any other 1-A conference, may be even more compelling to maintain.

From what I understand the BCS is discussing the automatic seeds for conferences for the 5 BCS games that will begin with the 2006 season, and what the criteria would be for a conference to have a retain the automatic seed. I understand that they are discussing the possibility that no conference will have a "entitled automatic seed", no matter how their conference performs. This means it is based on how the conference performs over a period of time. Like average ranking of the conference champion.

I also heard that this proposal could mean that there could be anywhere from 4 automatic seeds for 4 different conference, to 8 automatic seeds for 8 different conferences. So instead of 6 guaranteed automatic seeds for the six conferences of ACC, Big East, Big Ten Big XII, Pac 10, SEC, you have anywhere from 4 to 8 automatic seeds that are earned by any of the 11 conferences over a period of time: ACC, Big East, Big Ten, Big XII, CUSA, MAC, Mountain West, Pac 10, SEC, Sun Belt, or WAC. This makes for a very gooey situation for geographic allignment and for "migrating- nomadic-disloyal-conference-jumping opportunists" to run amuck all over the US map.

Consider this. This year, some of the college football annual pre-season magazines, for this year only, they have CUSA ranked as the 6th best conference in 1-A football, ahead of the Big East-7, which is number 7. MWC is number 8. They say this because these annuals have Louisville, TCU, and Memphis in the top-25s and USM is just outside of it. WVU is their only ranked team, generally, for the Big East.

Granted two of these teams, along with 2 others are bolting to other conferences next year. The Big East will get 3 new teams from CUSA. But given this flexibility of how many earned automatic BCS conference seeds they're talking about, and the lack of the old "hard and fast" rules and boundaries on these automatic seeds, it is possible for teams that are in BCS-seed conferences that are in a lower ranking BCS conference to be lured into a "bubble" BCS automatic-seed conference that is geographically close to them. It could also be a whole wing, or a separate amoeba members of a conference that could be lured into the present BCS "bubble" conference so they could then take the BCS bid away from the presently lower-ranked BCS automatic seed conference, and thus get higher-ranked to achieve that BCS bid.

Take for instance this example of the Big East/CUSA cusp region. U Louisville and UCincy, as discussed here are 2 of the 3 new members into the BCS-Big East Conference. The other, the very apparent Big East "outpost", USF. What if the BCS has an average ranking that is just barely above the minimum standards to maintain that BCS bid. Well, what happens if the Big East adds U Memphis for the purposes of a 9th Football school, and for the purposes of reunited the three rivals of U Cincy, U of Louisville, and U Memphis, so they would all be together as arch rivals and build onto that "River Wing" that they hope to weld together with Pitt and WVU. Their idea is to create a wing. But it could be an "amoeba", a separate "amoeba of outposts" just like the eastern amoeba of the old WAC (Texas schools).

Now what if CUSA has USM, and SMU, and some other school, lets say Houston are all ranked teams, and have each been champions of the CUSA. The Big East is struggling to keep its BCS bid, with its average just above the BCS automatic seed standard. CUSA is just below. Now in this new Big East with the new "River Wing", what if U Louisville, U Cincy, and U Memphis all become the best teams in this new 9-member Big East.

So, the CUSA then determines it needs to go on the offensive. They did not fill the 12 spot after Memphis left. La Tech just couldn't compell them enough. But then they really go on the offensive as they kick a couple teams out, like ECU or Rice or Tulane, or these teams leave because of not being able to keep their program up that they quit 1-A ball. Or they decide to go to 14 teams. So this leaves 1 to 3 openings in the CUSA, and the CUSA wants that coveted BCS bid. So they go behind the Big East back, and steal Memphis back from the Big East, and then a year later, U of L and U Cincy, missing their old rival, get lured back into the CUSA and this leads to the Big East not keeping their BCS bid and CUSA gains it from them, and have a BCS bid that the Big East used to have.

Having very tight geographic footprints is the way to protect from this happening. Where geographic wings, that seemingly look like wings, turn into separate "amoebas" that then get lured into another conference, the separate amoeba migrate like a nomad to another conference to help themselves out, as they are "nomadic opportunists", as well as helping out a bordering/neighboring BCS "bubble conference" so they could become a BCS automatic seed conference, and this lack of loyalty leads to the conference that they left behind, without a BCS automatic seed.

The tight geographic footprint keeps teams from having a lure into a neigboring conference as much as possible. The geographic footprint also gives the members of the conference a reason to be together and stay together. They are less likely to become attached to "migrating nomadic amoeba" that may emerge at a later time, and ruin the conferences BCS automatic seed.

Food for thought.

Again, the Big East should focus on the Northeast Footprint, not on schools way out of their footprint that could become "migrating nomadic amoeba". One outpost at the most, unless its Hawaii, where they are so far out, that if they left at a later date, after joining, they most likely wouldn't take anyone with them.


Last edited by sportsgeog on Fri Jul 30, 2004 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 1:24 pm 
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1.Navy(ND choice)
2Combined Army and Navy
3.CFLA switches with Temple for both football and bb .


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 1:34 pm 
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Quote:

3.CFLA switches with Temple for both football and bb .


I think 2 is possible. But what do you mean by the 3rd Choice? What, Temple becomes a CUSA team and UCF goes to the Big East in fb, but what conference does UCF's bball team and other sports go to?

Atlantic Sun? Back to the MAC? Not probable. Could you please explain your Option 3?


Last edited by sportsgeog on Fri Jul 30, 2004 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 2:26 pm 
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sportsgeog, first thing the 6 BCS conferences have automatic bids for the next four years. There is no consideration or review in 2006. After four years each conference will be reviewed to see if the average 12 ranking was maintained. At that point any BCS conference that does not maintain that average will be reviewed and a decision will be made if the conference keeps the BCS bid.

As for Marshall or East Carolina, I think these schools would find any willing mid major conference that would take the other sports if BE football membership was offered for football only.

I dont think the MAC would ever take Marshall back and likewise, Conf USA would not keep East Carolina if the football program joined the BE.

Now that everything is starting to settle down with expansion, not sure the BE would raid another conference to get a football only school.

The question or issue is not where a football only school would play other sports, would the Big East take a football only school from another div 1A conference. My guess is no.

This leaves Temple, Army and Navy as a 9th football only school. The other option is a school that would be willing to upgrade to 1A.

My guess would be the Big East would keep Temple as the 9th football member if the school could finally get to a bowl this year.

If Temple does not get to a bowl this year, its reasonable to assume the school will never get to a bowl as an independent and football will eventually be dropped.

Likely order of teams if BE takes a 9th football only member:

1 Temple - if the school can make a bowl game this year

2 Navy - not sure BE would take Navy without Army and would the conference go to 10 in football?

3 Villanova - upgrade to 1A if Temple drops football

4 UMass - upgrade to 1A



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:21 pm 
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sportsgeog, first thing the 6 BCS conferences have automatic bids for the next four years. There is no consideration or review in 2006. After four years each conference will be reviewed to see if the average 12 ranking was maintained. At that point any BCS conference that does not maintain that average will be reviewed and a decision will be made if the conference keeps the BCS bid.


Yes, I understood that it works this way. My post above^ talks about "earning" the automatic seed, I just didn't talk about the the first 4 year time period. All the 6 BCS conferences begin working towards "earning" their respective automatic bids beginning in 2006. That still doesn't prevent what I talked about^ from happening sometime in the next decade.


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As for Marshall or East Carolina, I think these schools would find any willing mid major conference that would take the other sports if BE football membership was offered for football only.

I dont think the MAC would ever take Marshall back and likewise, Conf USA would not keep East Carolina if the football program joined the BE.


I agree about CUSA not keep ECU nor would it keep Marshall, nor would the MAC take Marshall back. Additionally, the A-10 wouldn't take either team either, because there is no room. The A-10 is the only conference nearby that is on the same level and rank as CUSA, and is above the MAC, but the MAC is a higher ranking conference compared to all of the other conferences located nearby that are not BCS conferences to these two schools. I suppose the Mid-Continent may be interested in Marshall, but that's on a lower level than the MAC. The Horizon also seems a bit of a stretch, which is lower than the MAC. The Missouri Valley, which is better than the MAC in BBall is way too far away. There's nothing even comparable for ECU that's on the same level as CUSA, even after the recent defections. Where do either of these two schools go for it to be advantageous for them in bball and their other sports, thats even close to the level of where they are now in a Conference USA and its respective standing? Do you have any conferences in mind? SoCon? No they betrayed them. CAA? Maybe, is there room? Patriot? isn't that the lowest ranked BBall Conference? Where? all to get into the Big East, when they can stay in the CUSA, work on getting CUSA a BCS bid, and keep their other sports in the same CUSA league?


Quote:
Now that everything is starting to settle down with expansion, not sure the BE would raid another conference to get a football only school.

The question or issue is not where a football only school would play other sports, would the Big East take a football only school from another div 1A conference. My guess is no.


I agree with "no" cause how would it be advantageous for all their sports? It isn't.


Quote:
This leaves Temple, Army and Navy as a 9th football only school. The other option is a school that would be willing to upgrade to 1A.

My guess would be the Big East would keep Temple as the 9th football member if the school could finally get to a bowl this year.

If Temple does not get to a bowl this year, its reasonable to assume the school will never get to a bowl as an independent and football will eventually be dropped.


They better reel Temple in fast, because CUSA may take them, as talked about in this thread and the article linked from it:

http://ncaasports.proboards10.com/index.cgi?board=football&action=display&thread=1077556163&start=15

If they need Temple afterall, why kick them out, or even talk of kicking them out in the first place? I think the simple solution is just keep them, if they really do need a 9th football-only team.


Quote:
Likely order of teams if BE takes a 9th football only member:

1 Temple - if the school can make a bowl game this year

2 Navy - not sure BE would take Navy without Army and would the conference go to 10 in football?

3 Villanova - upgrade to 1A if Temple drops football

4 UMass - upgrade to 1A



I agree with all of these, except I think 2 would be a combo Navy/Army partial schedule arrangement, where a bowl game would be offered to them from the Big East/Norte Dame mix of bowl tie-ins. Also, I wouldn't necessarily make Temple's inclusion contingent on them making a bowl. Just make them the 9th-football only member and get it over with. Their attendance is at 20K to 25K, sometimes from 15 K to 20K. That's not that much different than U Cincy. They need to work on their performance, which may never completely happen. But maybe if they get an uncoditional membership as a football-only member, maybe it would help with recruiting for them. Or extend their conditional membership for another 5 years.

I think 3 and 4 are great ideas to explore for the long run. However, I would expand it to look at (evaluate) all possible 1-A and 1-AA, including upgrading possibilities, exclusively in the Northeast footprint for future expansion and future additional members -- focus on that Northeast Footprint.

________

The other immediate option is simply stay at 8 for awhile, and don't go after a 9th football-only member or additonal members for awhile. They did this for more than a decade, why do they need a 9th member? Yes, I know its one of the ideal number of members for a football conference.


Last edited by sportsgeog on Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:39 pm 
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Anyone would be crazy to orphan their other sports for the #6 BCS conference. And they would be orphaned. Marshall was going for a fb only membership in CUSA, but the Horizon, CAA and Southern all told them no. They should certainly consider it, but it wouldn't work.

I don't know who Tranghese is talking about. They just decided to tell Temple good-bye, had a chance to reverse it and didn't. Will UMass get funding from private and/or state sources with a BE fb only invitation? Since they just concluded they couldn't right now, it doesn't seem likely that MT is talking about them. Army just left CUSA to play a more national schedule. Navy maybe? But it would seem they would also want a national schedule.

Perhaps he is only talking about a scheduling opponent. Army and Navy have been talking with the MAC about each scheduling 4 games. Maybe they are looking at a similar deal with the BE. They would not be members, but would have a scheduling arrangement so that each of the 8 BE schools would have 4 home and 4 away games.

But then again, strange things have happened in conference realignment. Is Temple fb only in BE again any stranger than CUSA going to 14?

Maybe if Temple wins the BE this year?! Actually I would love to see that. They have gotten the raw end of realignment more than anyone else. And Pennsylvania can certainly (if it chooses) support 3 I-A teams.


Last edited by bullet on Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:40 pm 
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It's dissappointing that TU hasn't done very much as a member of the BE (although the same could be said about RU as well). I wonder what TU would have done if given full membership. Unforutnately, that won't happen unless there is a BABE (break away BE).

Anyway, I imagine the BE won't move on a 9th FB-only member until the NCAA approves a 12 game schedule. Right now, the BE can schedule 4 OOC games and MT said himself that each BE team need to schedule 2 "difficult" OOC games. My take is to schedule perferrable against other BCS conference members - not necessarily against USC or Miami or Michigan but say Oregon State, Mississippi State, Illinois - ie projected middle of the pack teams. It would be a difficult to make sure you get it right, but it can be done.

Some of the BE teams will HAVE to schedule "big dogs" anyway to help sell tickets. I know Pitt and SU will have to.

IF the NCAA goes to 12 games, adding a 9th member would help with scheduling and would still allow BE teams to schedule 4 OOC games with 2 games being against "difficult" teams.

I'm not sure who would be the best team to add (minus ND of course). All potential candidates have adv/disadv. I dont' think it will be TU as MT and TU don't exactly ahve the best relationship and the BE already kicked them out once. The BE already looks like a desperate league and adding TU back only reinforces that perception.

My 2 cents....

Bullet - Bob Mulcahy (the RU AD) said the BE would stay together for 5 years on WFAN about a month ago. Sorry there is no quote though.

PS - keep up the good discussion! :)


Last edited by panthersc97 on Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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