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 Post subject: Big East - 12 team model
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:29 am 
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For the Big East to get the championship game, they add East Carolina, Marshall, Army, and Navy. East Carolina and Marshall would lose its full C-USA membership, but would play the rest of their sports in the Atlantic-10. Army and Navy would stay in the Patriot League.

West
Cincinnati
East Carolina
Louisville
Marshall
Pittsburgh
West Virginia

East
Army
Connecticut
Navy
Rutgers
South Florida
Syracuse

Big East Championship Game - Meadowlands, New Jersey


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 Post subject: Big East - 12 team model
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:19 am 
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I see them adding Marshall, East Carolina, Memphis, and Cenral Florida.

North

West Virginia
UConn
Cincy
Syracuse
Rutgers
Pitt

South

Marshall
East Carolina
Louisville
Memphis
South Florida
Cenrtral Florida



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 Post subject: Big East - 12 team model
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:52 am 
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On another thread, Sportsgeog pointed out the risks of The Big East expanding beyond its own footprint & becoming a conference whose teams are secondary to the Big Ten, the SEC, & the ACC, thereby becoming the new CUSA. Half of the current footbal members are already in this position. Sportsgeog suggested that The Big East work with Notheast I-AA schools that have an interest in upgrading their programs & bringing them into the fold some time down the road. I think that this is sage advice. A year ago, The Big East needed instant credibility & they selected schools that brought that for the most part. Now they can afford to wait. In fact, it's important that they wait so that they strengthen their existing core. Expansion that is too rapid will dilute their membership, & they will quickly find themselves out of the BCS altogether.

Marshall & Army fit the Big East footprint while the others do not. However, I don't think that The Big East will ever again include associate, football-only members. Do Marshall & Army fit the all-sports criterion? Maybe. Army is a stretch & Marshall seems to have opponents within the existing Big East membership.

I like the idea of starting with Delaware, an established winner as a I-AA football program and Umass to take the initiative back from the ACC in that part of New England & a school that has proven that it can build a winner in basketball & has some interest in I-A football.
Temple has the big city location but The Big East seems to have given up on them. Villanova was once a Successful D-I football program & continues at I-AA, but they didn't show any interest when The Big East offered guaranteed membership to non-IA members who would upgrade. Only UConn took advantage of that offer. I think that there is real potential in the SUNY campuses at Buffalo, Albany, & Stony Brook, Long Island. However, so far only Buffalo has shown any interest & they've been a dismal failure.

If I were The Big East & if I decided to split from the basketball schools, I'd start expansion with UMass & Delaware to get to 10 teams. I'd then wait & see if their example sparks any meaningful interest in any of the other potential candidates. I'd also take a second look at Marshall, Army, & maybe Navy.

My 2 cents. :)


Last edited by friarfan on Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Big East - 12 team model
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:11 pm 
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Quote:
On another thread, Sportsgeog pointed out the risks of The Big East expanding beyond its own footprint & becoming a conference whose teams are secondary to the Big Ten, the SEC, & the ACC, thereby becoming the new CUSA. Half of the current footbal members are already in this position. Sportsgeog suggested that The Big East work with Notheast I-AA schools that have an interest in upgrading their programs & bringing them into the fold some time down the road. I think that this is sage advice. A year ago, The Big East needed instant credibility & they selected schools that brought that for the most part. Now they can afford to wait. In fact, it's important that they wait so that they strengthen their existing core. Expansion that is too rapid will dilute their membership, & they will quickly find themselves out of the BCS altogether.

Marshall & Army fit the Big East footprint while the others do not. However, I don't think that The Big East will ever again include associate, football-only members. Do Marshall & Army fit the all-sports criterion? Maybe. Army is a stretch & Marshall seems to have opponents within the existing Big East membership.

I like the idea of starting with Delaware, an established winner as a I-AA football program and Umass to take the initiative back from the ACC in that part of New England & a school that has proven that it can build a winner in basketball & has some interest in I-A football.
Temple has the big city location but The Big East seems to have given up on them. Villanova was once a Successful D-I football program & continues at I-AA, but they didn't show any interest when The Big East offered guaranteed membership to non-IA members who would upgrade. Only UConn took advantage of that offer. I think that there is real potential in the SUNY campuses at Buffalo, Albany, & Stony Brook, Long Island. However, so far only Buffalo has shown any interest & they've been a dismal failure.

If I were The Big East & if I decided to split from the basketball schools, I'd start expansion with UMass & Delaware to get to 10 teams. I'd then wait & see if their example sparks any meaningful interest in any of the other potential candidates. I'd also take a second look at Marshall, Army, & maybe Navy.

My 2 cents. :)


That makes sense too, but why even add South Florida in the first place? If they were willing to add them, I don't see why they would not not add UCF with their expanding budget and great market?

Also, Memphis just makes too much sense as a key addition in basketball as well as having another great market.

Marshall is sort of the best of the rest scenario.

You're right, I think, about Delaware or UMass being an upgrade as the 12th addition.

East Carolina would be the filler, so to speak, if no other options were available.

I'm hearing that any movement is at least 5 years away. By then, the Big East should no what will happen or not happen to their BCS bid. That will determine who or if thaey add anyone, assuming there is a split first of course.


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 Post subject: Big East - 12 team model
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:00 pm 
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CajunNation, you make excellent points. This a very difficult decision. For every potential candidate with an upside, there is also a downside & there are those who don't seem to fit whose upside is difficult to ignore. I guess all I can say is that I feel strongly both ways on most of these possibilities. But in the interest of stirring the pot, I'll add my thoughts to your comments.

Re South Florida, they were added reluctantly when BC left. I don't think that it was a good decision in the first place, so why compound the mistake & add a second Florida school. To answer your question, I think they were added to enhance the Big East's bowl position in Florida & to get a foothold in the state for recruiting purposes - both dubious reasons. Why not add UCF? They're awfully close to USF & the Big East has always tried to avoid having members that compete for the same TV market. Furthermore, Florida begins to look awfully crowded with a 5th BCS program. USF would probably be bettr off with Big East exclusivity in the market.

Memphis is the classic case of a school with great upside but a downside for every one of its upsides. Too far away from the footprint & buried in the heart of SEC country. Tough choice.
I agree that Marshall is the best of the rest & at one time pushed for their inclusion, but West Virginia doesn't want them - again competition for the same market. And other Big East members have their own reasons for thinking that the Thundering Herd does not fit the Big East profile.

East Carolina would be a filler to get to 12, but I don't think that the Big East cares about getting to 12 right now. The drawback with East Carolina is that North Carolina is already crowded with 4 BCS programs in state.


we'll know better a few years down the road. Right now the conference has to work its tail off to upgrade the existing programs just so it can suvive in the BCS.


Last edited by friarfan on Sat Jul 31, 2004 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Big East - 12 team model
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:59 pm 
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I don't think Delaware or Marshall make sense except as a #12 filler. Marshall adds 0 in TV market and they are already in a small state. Marshall's best attendance has been 28k despite some very good success in I-A. Delaware, again, adds almost nothing in TV market. You may get all of Delaware, but that's only 700k. Both add 0 in basketball.

IMO, the grow from within people are mostly right. However, to do that, you need to keep basketball strong so that the conference still has a high profile. That means, if you lose Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, Georgetown and Villanova, you need some NE bb powers in good markets. The only options who play I-AA scholarship football or I-A football are Temple and UMass. There is Villanova, but they are limited by their small size. They had a chance to move up with a guaranteed spot and did not do it, wisely IMO.

So I think you add UMass or Temple in order to get a NE team with a good TV market and good bb history along with ECU or Memphis for fb. Memphis adds bb and rivalries with UC and UL, but is outside the footprint. However, if they are regularly winning and drawing 40k like last year, they are the best candidate. Otherwise, ECU has the best fan support and that is something a new candidate desperately needs.


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 Post subject: Big East - 12 team model
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:47 pm 
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Quote:
I don't think Delaware or Marshall make sense except as a #12 filler. Marshall adds 0 in TV market and they are already in a small state. Marshall's best attendance has been 28k despite some very good success in I-A. Delaware, again, adds almost nothing in TV market. You may get all of Delaware, but that's only 700k. Both add 0 in basketball.


Actually, right now Delaware has 800K and growing. By the time 10 years gets around, they'll be pretty close to a million. They have one of the strongest followings in all of 1-AA, with about 21,000 average attendance and Sports Illustrated did an article on Delaware sports for their 50th aniversary, and they focused on the U Delaware Blue Hens as their story for the state of Delaware, and they said that U Delaware has a strong following in the state. Technically, is in the Philadelphia Metro area, with Wilmington -- a mid-sized metro satellite to Philly right near by. Its like an additional Philly area team, sorda what U Wyoming is for Denver, but actually more optimal in that Philly is about 1 hour away and the 800K to eventually nearly 1 million all living very close by in the state because the state is so small, makes it a viable option for the Big East in the long-term, more so than Wyoming's situation for the Mountain West or even being a Div. 1-A team. I say they could expand there stadium from 21 K to 30 k to 40 K over a 10 year period. Its definitely in the Northeast footprint, which a number of these teams mentioned aren't.


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 Post subject: Big East - 12 team model
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:30 am 
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Delaware is not going 1A,they like 1AA.UMASS does not have any money and there are no 100 million dollar gifts insight.Temple is not getting back into BE football.WVU does not want MarshalThe service academies are very iffy unless pushes them.No MAC schools are being invited.ECU and Memphis were told no once.Thus the choices are ND,Villanova and UCF.


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 Post subject: Big East - 12 team model
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:56 am 
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Quote:
Delaware is not going 1A,they like 1AA.UMASS does not have any money and there are no 100 million dollar gifts insight.Temple is not getting back into BE football.WVU does not want MarshalThe service academies are very iffy unless pushes them.No MAC schools are being invited.ECU and Memphis were told no once.Thus the choices are ND,Villanova and UCF.


Yes, but in 10 years things could change. Afterall, 10 years ago, who would have thought that UConn would be in Div. 1-A, in the Big East Conference, and would have a 9-3 season as well as average 30,000+ in attendance? Certainly every school's circumstances are different, but who's to say that the economy would improve, donations would happen?

Look at Marshall, they are an "Historic Normal" located in a smallish Mid-sized metro area, in a smallish state that usually loses people and its economy isn't as vibrant as its surrounding states and they built a stadium to 38,000, as well as moving up their team from 1-AA.

If UConn and Marshall can do it, why not U Delaware and UMass? I say that these are things that could happen over a 10 year period or in the long-term.


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 Post subject: Big East - 12 team model
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 11:13 am 
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I don't think Delaware or Marshall make sense except as a #12 filler. Delaware, again, adds almost nothing in TV market. You may get all of Delaware, but that's only 700k. Both add 0 in basketball.

The only options who play I-AA scholarship football or I-A football are Temple and UMass. There is Villanova, but they are limited by their small size. They had a chance to move up with a guaranteed spot and did not do it, wisely IMO.

So I think you add UMass or Temple in order to get a NE team with a good TV market and good bb history.


I've got to agree with Sportsgeog on this one. Delaware is only an hour outside of Philly. UD is also technically a private university that serves the state's public higher education needs. There are others like this - Penn State to name one. But more important is that Delaware operates like a private university & has strong out of state appeal. It draws large umbers of out of state students & therefore has large numbers of out of state alumni - meaning that its appeal is not limited to an in-state following.

Philly has no local team to follow for TV appeal other than Penn State, which is significant but still a lot farther away than UD. No reason the Philly papers & TV stations couldn't cover both. A slection of UD would be made based on their potential. Can they grow into a strong IA program with the right level of interest & commitment? Do they know how to develop & run a successful program at their level? I think that the answer to both of these questions is yes. They have done it at the IAA level in football. Although they are a zero right now in Div I basketball, they have had successful seasons within their own conference, so they have shown that they know how to run a successful program.

Temple is a very frustrating situation for the Big East. I went to 4 years of parent weekends as a BC parent. Guess who they featured every year. Temple. Why? Because it was a guranteed win. Temple was an embarassment on the field for the Big East every year until the last year or two & by then the die had been cast. Temple has to do something dramatic on the field to turn heads at the Big East.


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 Post subject: Big East - 12 team model
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 11:15 am 
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Quote:
the choices are ND,Villanova and UCF.


Unfortunately, in regard to Notre Dame, the choice is not the Big East's to make; it is Notre Dame's.


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 Post subject: Big East - 12 team model
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 4:23 pm 
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Delaware is not going 1A,they like 1AA.UMASS does not have any money and there are no 100 million dollar gifts insight.Temple is not getting back into BE football.WVU does not want MarshalThe service academies are very iffy unless pushes them.No MAC schools are being invited.ECU and Memphis were told no once.Thus the choices are ND,Villanova and UCF.


UMASS has the dollars trust me, WVU doesn't want marshall just yet but if there was a split they would open there arms wide open.

My BIG East Model goes as

West
Cincinnati
Louisville
Marshall
Pittsburgh
West Virginia
Navy

East
Army
Connecticut
Massachusetts
Rutgers
South Florida
Syracuse

_________________
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 Post subject: Big East - 12 team model
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 6:40 pm 
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I believe UMASS does not even have enough money to keep their senior faculty.They get 8k for their home football games.


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 Post subject: Big East - 12 team model
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 6:56 pm 
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I believe UMASS does not even have enough money to keep their senior faculty.They get 8k for their home football games.


http://www.masslive.com/forums/umfootball/index.ssf?page=7

it would take 125 million over a 5 year period. 75 million for facilities alone. Funding from private donors not there yet.

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 Post subject: Big East - 12 team model
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 6:56 pm 
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If the BE wanted to stick it back to the ACC and get 12, they should add the following four schools to their conference:

East Carolina - In the heart of ACC turf. They were the best football playing school in North Carolina not that long ago. The ACC does not want them, but the ACC would not want them being in a BCS conference either. They have good facilities and appreciable fan support.

Central Florida - Brings the BE to two in Florida as the ACC has. High population growth along the I-4 corridor. George O'Leary will make this school a winner.

UMASS and Georgia Southern - Winners of 1-AA football championships. UMASS has solid bb and would really cut into the ACC's BC lust. GA Southern could draw strong attention in the Augusta to Savannah region plus some of southern South Carolina and south Georgia to north Florida. GA Southern can play football!

If UCONN can come up with the funds, UMASS should be able to also. I know UMASS has financial issues as reported last year in the media and referred to in the above posts. If not UMASS, then maybe Delaware.

GA Southern and Central Florida are schools with strong growth potential.

I know the above sounds odd to some, but these four with the BE's other football eight, could eventually go head to head with the ACC. They would dominate the northeast and challenge the ACC in the coastal south.


Last edited by lionsndogs on Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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