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 Post subject: Big East - 12 team model
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:47 pm 
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The basketball side has a lot of options after a split. With the addition of Marquette and DePaul, they seem to want to create the "Big North" Catholic basketball league. So:
Big North-East
Providence
St. John's
Seton Hall
Villanova
Georgetown
Holy Cross
Big North-Midwest
Marquette
DePaul
Dayton
Xavier
St. Louis
Detroit Mercy


Some alternatives to St. Louis if they didn't want to go so far west and Detroit Mercy if their program wasn't showing enough life are Butler (Indianapolis), Duquesne (Pittsburgh but struggling in A-10), Richmond (not north, not Catholic but solid private school bb program) and Niagra (upstate New York).

I think 12 is the number for them, as with their limited budgets, it helps to have more schools for the non-revenue sports (having enough teams that sponsor the particular sport) and they can reduce travel with more regional play in the NE and MW by splitting into divisions. In addition, Dayton and Xavier are IMO obvious additions, but the Boston and Detroit market are too important to pass up. That gets you up to 11 (or 12 if ND stays).



bullet,

Interesting choices of "other options"...
I find it interesting you have taken Dayton and Xavier from the A-10, but ignored the "other Catholics in this group...
St. Josephs
St. Bonaventure
Fordham
LaSalle
These are all higher profile schools than Niagara. I'm not certain X and Dayton would leave this group even for the core of the Big East Catholics. Richmond doesn't seem to fit your profile.

8-)


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 Post subject: Big East - 12 team model
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 9:32 pm 
Concerning Memphis in earlier posts, their fan support is generally localized and confined to a certain degree with their alumni. They also have a major commuter, student population.

The southern "suburbs", into NW Mississippi has Ole Miss fans, but also Miss State, which is further SE, but certainly regional enough and has in the past, garnered good coverage from the Commerical-Appeal. Miss State and Ole Miss fans are throughout the state, and not limited necessarily to one sector. Many communities are near even divided in their support.

Memphis does not provide a heavy, traveling fan group. Their bb has been a local attraction when they are good and when popular teams visit. The Liberty Bowl and bb arena in Memphis are respectable facilities. Cincy and even L'ville can logically be connected with the BE in a geographic sense. Memphis, though, is really south, and a gateway into the southwest. Other than good airport access, connecting with the BE would be a big stretch. The BE could find a more feasible candidate.

Memphis also likes to play the 3 1-A Mississippi schools, and has a good rivalry with Southern Miss. Tulane and UAB, and a couple of others, are also regional rivals.


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 Post subject: Big East - 12 team model
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 8:52 am 
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<<Interesting choices of "other options"...
I find it interesting you have taken Dayton and Xavier from the A-10, but ignored the "other Catholics in this group...
St. Josephs
St. Bonaventure
Fordham
LaSalle
These are all higher profile schools than Niagara. I'm not certain X and Dayton would leave this group even for the core of the Big East Catholics. Richmond doesn't seem to fit your profile.>>TEXT

Richmond doesn't fit the profile, but if they are looking simply for the strongest programs and don't go further west, they are a possibility.

The primary reason I left those other A-10 programs is that they don't add new markets. Fordham is incredibly bad, so I don't consider them high profile. Also, they are in New York where the BE will have St. John's and Seton Hall (No. NJ), so they don't add anything. LaSalle and St. Joseph's are in Philadelphia where the BE will have Villanova. St. Bonaventure is a tiny school in a small town, has been down from their traditional strength and with their recent problems practically (and deservedly so IMO) got kicked out of the A-10.


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 Post subject: Big East - 12 team model
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:22 am 
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8/10/2004
Ask The AD
http://www.navysports.com/release.asp?RELEASE_ID=16338


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42.) With the recent departure of Miami, VT, and BC from the Big East and due to the fact that Navy historically plays many teams in the Big East, wouldn't now be a great time to join the Big East for football?

Scott Wassel, '88

ANSWER: Right now we feel comfortable as an independent. It is possible down the road that conference affiliation could become an option, however, we can dictate our scheduling which has been a major boost to positioning ourselves to win. Secondly, the television revenues that we generate are kept by the Academy. Thirdly, because of last year's showing in the Houston Bowl, I'm confident that if there're open slots at the end of the year and we are bowl eligible, we should find an opportunity. And four, the revenues that we generate through our football program are kept in their entirety by the Academy not shared with other schools. Therefore, as we build the program today, it's best that we remain with the flexibility we have, but I don't discount the very real possibility of conference affiliation down the road.


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 Post subject: Big East - 12 team model
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:26 am 
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I don't know if the Big East will get to 12 teams....but i do believe they will eventually split from the basketball only teams and form, I also think they will eventually ask Army and Navy to become a BE member...I don't see the disadvantages of Army and Navy as members...except the on-field results...Army and Navy don't win a whole lot of games....but every BCS conference has 1 or 2 teams that doesn't win a lot of games...

I forsee Army and Navy being invited for football only in a couple of years to bring the BE to 10 football schools, then a few years later adding Memphis, UCF and/or ECU to bring the BE to 12, causing a split in basketball & football, but the new conference will be an all sports conference...


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 Post subject: Big East - 12 team model
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:25 pm 
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I think Army and Navy will be football members in the Big East pretty soon. Also if the Big East splits I look for the FB Big East to add Marshall and Temple. I was saying East Carolina, but in the northeast bb is bigger than football. Temple gives the Philadelphia market and is a strong BB school. Marshall is the anti Temple. Small market, good football, so-so bb.

New Big East
East
Army
Connecticut
Navy
Rutgers
Syracuse
Temple

West
Cincinnati
Louisville
Marshall
Pittsburgh
South Florida
West Virginia

For bb they have 18 game schedule. 1 division 10 teams. Play round-robin schedule. Also for BB this is a even stronger league than just the BB only members.


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 Post subject: Big East - 12 team model
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 11:03 am 
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I don't know if the Big East will get to 12 teams....but i do believe they will eventually split from the basketball only teams and form, I also think they will eventually ask Army and Navy to become a BE member...I don't see the disadvantages of Army and Navy as members...except the on-field results...Army and Navy don't win a whole lot of games....but every BCS conference has 1 or 2 teams that doesn't win a lot of games...

I forsee Army and Navy being invited for football only in a couple of years to bring the BE to 10 football schools, then a few years later adding Memphis, UCF and/or ECU to bring the BE to 12, causing a split in basketball & football, but the new conference will be an all sports conference...


Michael, I think that the forecast on a Big East split is murky. It makes sense to me, but it is compolicated. Without getting into NCAA basketball revenue, I will just point out that the basketball side of the equation was attracted to the Big East by the prospect of playing games in Madison Square Garden & other big Eastern cities - not in Storrs, CT or Piscataway, NJ.

Of course, it is the football side of the equation that determined most of this. Actually, I see more negatives on the football side for adding Army & Navy. You are correct about all conferencess having some perennial losers. The problem for the Big East is that they are also soft at the top of the conference & in the middle. For their best teams to be highly ranked - both by the polls & by the computers - they have to beat somebody good. Adding Army &/or Navy just softens the schedule further. The current 7 game schedule gives the league's better teams the opportunity to go out & schedule top-flite competition to improve their strength of schedule.

I don't see any additions to the football side of the conference until teams in its upper tier upgrade their performance on the field. If this doesn't happen, the Big East will not be a BCS conference in 5 years when it comes time to consider a split from the BB schools & to consider fb expansion.

I think that The Big East is really feeling its way as it develops as a conference. There are so many uncertainties & so little history to fall back on, that it is just about impossible to predict where things will end up. for now, they are just taking it one step at a time. Future events will have a lot to do with determinig what their future will be. Right now their future is full of opportunity & promise. It is up to the members to seize the opportunity & to fulfill the promise. Whether they will or not is unkown.


Last edited by friarfan on Fri Aug 13, 2004 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Big East - 12 team model
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 3:53 pm 
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sportsgeog,

this is a question based on some info. you gave on an earlier post concerning higher education in Ohio.

I, too, was aware that schools like Ohio U. were much older than Ohio State and that OSU,the state's landgrant institution, though a newer institution, was given flagship status.

Why do you suppose that something similiar to this didn't happen in Indiana? Like Ohio U, IU is in the southern part of its state and was a product of that early migration of folks from places like VA down the Ohio River.

Purdue was set up as a land grant like OSU, but IU always kept its status......any idea why IU and Ohio U went their different ways in the power structure of their state university systems?



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 Post subject: Big East - 12 team model
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 6:41 pm 
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^bg dz,

I am not totally sure. But this is my intuition of the history of public university intitutions of both Ohio and Indiana:

The tough thing about understanding the roles of all the public universities of a state and the history of those roles is that you either need to find info on the history of all the early public universities and/or find a source that can tell you the overall state's public university history.

The good thing about reading about an individual institution's history, is you get to understand what its roles were and are. The bad thing is that they are most likely not going to talk about some other institutions history and how that particular institution relates to it.

In Ohio's early history, the only 3 universities were Ohio U (1st in the NW territory and Ohio beginning in 1804), Miami U (1809), and U Cincy (1819). Now I know for the longest time, U Cincy was a municipally run and owned by the City of Cincinnati until 1977, when the State of Ohio became quite involved with the institution. The State of Ohio was involved with the opening of Ohio U, but I am not sure if it totally started out as a public U. Miami was started in 1809, but I can't find anything on its history. It might have started out private, but now its a "state-related" institution. These two universities were established prior to the 1862 Morrill Act that established Land Grants. In 1870, OSU was established for this reason, and it might've had a bigger role as well.

I do remember from reading both the Miami U and Ohio U websites that in the 1880's, they both had a "Normal" Department established within their institutional structure. Now Bowling Green and Kent State were both created for the purposes of being a "Normal School", but they might of made an extended purpose of the historic Ohio U and Miami into similar roles, although they had a broader purpose, mission, and history than just being a teachers training school. Like I said in many other posts on "Normal Schools" they were established first as training schools for teachers and multiple campuses and institutions were established throughout a state to reach teachers in rural areas. It could be that Miami U and Ohio U took on the role of 3rd and 4th regional normals, in addition to their broader roles for the purposes of teaching teachers in the SW and SE regions of Ohio, while Kent State concentrated on NE Ohio and BGSU on NW Ohio. I am not sure of this. This is basically based on intuition. Ohio U is celebrating its bi-centennial this year, and there is a book published on its history that may reveal more about its history, role and mission in the state.

Now Ohio State was established to be the states Land Grant and it located in the state capital. Ohio U an Miami don't have medical schools and law schools. U Cincy may have always have had those as the Municipal University of Ohio. They may have established Ohio State not only to be the states Land Grant, but also for the purposes of creating a state medical school and law school. I will need to check this from Ohio State's history to see if this is the case. Today, there is also a medical school, called the Medical Colllege of Ohio based in Toledo, also the Northeastern Ohio Universities have a medical school, and so does Wright State in Dayton in addition to U Cincy and Ohio State. But that is my guess on the difference between Ohio State, Ohio U, and Miami U.

As far as Indiana is concerned, Indiana U is the oldest institution in Indiana and the 5th oldest in U in the NW Territory, established in 1820. Purdue was established in the late 1860's for the Land Grant designation of the Morrill Act of 1862. Purdue is a little different than most Land Grants in that it emphasizes the technology as much as the agriculture. Its almost like a Georgia Tech mixed in with a Michigan State. I think the difference is that Indiana U, unlike Ohio U, was established as the medical school and law school in its institution. I am not sure those two school are both located in Bloomington today. Like most state U's, they locate the medical school in a urban, metropolitan city. It may be located as a separate medical school campus in Indy as part of the IU system and/or may be a part of the IUPUI campus in Indy like the U of Illinois Medical school is part of UIC. Also the University of Alabama Medical School is a part of the University of Alabama-Birmingham. I am not sure. I would have to check both IU and IUPUI websites to see how and where it is located. IUPUI offers degrees from both IU and Purdue, but administratively it is part of the IU system. I think the IU law school is in Bloomington though.

The Law School and Medical School function are significant pieces of state flagship institutions and their history can lead the school into a strong research function and service to the state.

As far as the Normal school functions. I am not sure if there were more than two in Indiana, but Ball State and Indiana State served the Normal school functions. I am not sure totally what the purpose of the University of Southern Indiana, located in Evansville, is, but it was started in the 1960's, long after the Normal School paradigm was less needed. I know there are branch campuses of IU and PU in different locations, like IU South Bend, PU Calumet, IU-Kokomo, IU-Columbus, IUPUFW, etc. But I am not sure if these are late 20th Century campuses or originally Normal schools established in the late 1800s/early 1900s like ISU an BSU.

But I am not totally sure on this, but that's what why intuitive guess is.


Last edited by sportsgeog on Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Big East - 12 team model
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:13 pm 
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<<I know there are branch campuses of IU and PU in different locations, like IU South Bend, PU Calumet, IU-Kokomo, IU-Columbus, IUPUFW, etc. But I am not sure if these are late 20th Century campuses or originally Normal schools established in the late 1800s/early 1900s like ISU an BSU.>>

Without looking it up, I can tell you they joined the state system in the late 20th century. I don't know if any of them were private schools before, but some are recently (last 30-40 years) opened and all are recent to the state system.


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