NCAA Conference Realignment & Expansion Message Boards
NCAA Map

Discussions by Conference:
  It is currently Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:27 pm

Help support CollegeSportsInfo.com by shopping

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 173 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:54 pm 
Offline
All-Star
All-Star

Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2002 5:14 pm
Posts: 2663
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Tigershartwo, sorry for the confustion. I did not mean to imply that a BE official was discussing taking on a MAC school. I was referring to some boards of BE schools that sometimes mention Toledo as a canidate for the Big East.

There are some good MAC schools out there that could make for good canidates for expansion if the Big East went in that direction.

Toledo is not a bad football program with decent attendance. If you include parts of northwest Ohio and some of the greater Detroit TV market, there is some value to this school.

Norhern Illinois could help to bring some of the Chicago market.

Ohio is not a bad school and plays decent basketball.

Since you are always on the academic argument, Miami Ohio would bring a lot to the table.

The MAC just gets a bad rap.

MAC teams may be more appropriate for expansion over future Conf USA teams.

If I recall, Ohio applied for membership to the Big East a few years back.

I think Toledo, Ohio U, or Northern Illinois bring more to the table for football than Villanova.

The 8 Big East football schools do not need another basketball school.



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:22 am 
Offline
All-Star
All-Star

Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2002 5:14 pm
Posts: 2663
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Since the MWC is putting a lot of pressure on the BCS and new Big East similiar to how the old Big East was putting pressure on the old ACC, the Big East could take the ACC route and expand with the best of the MWC.

Call it Big America or BAC or Big East is finally back. The idea is not as far fetched as one may think. See more details after the divisions.

East: Syracuse, Connecticut, Rutgers, Pitt, WVU, South Florida

West: Utah, BYU, New Mexico, Colorado St, Cincinnati, Louisiville

At first the travel looks ackward however, looking more closely it actually looks very workable.

Cincinnati and Louisville would only have to make two trips out west per year in football.

The western teams could make a combination trip to WVU/Pitt on two weekends. The kids could attend school away as part of academic sharing benefits as well.

Basketball would look very good as well. BYU/Utah, Pitt WVU, Cincinnati/Louisville could be scheduled as pairs on Thursday and Saturday similiar to Pac 10 schedules. The western teams would only make one trip for basketball back east in the division with Cin/Lou on same week.

Salt Lake, Denver, and Albuquerque would be added to the Big East market networks.

Bowls out west would be interested as the Sun would be close to both divisions or a west coast bowl would then make sense.

Basketball would look great as Utah and NM often produce good teams.

Have to think on where the championship game would be played. Lots of fun options.

Yea this idea really looks good and if the Big East is smart it will follow the ACC path and take the best from the competation before the competation gets the upper hand.

Both divisions have a distinct regional look with four western schools along with Lou/Cin from the mid west ohio valley. The east division looks similiar to the old BE without Miami.

Big America (BAC). I think this would shock college football world the way ACC did with expansion. With shock comes exposure. With exposure comes the networks.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 7:08 am 
Offline
Junior
Junior

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 4:21 am
Posts: 114
Lash, I see the merit of your proposal. As I watched the UTEP vs. Houston game last night, I wondered how far Greenville, NC and Huntington, WV were from El Paso, TX. According to Map Quest, they are about 1900 and 1650 miles respectively (granted, that is highway miles versus actual distance). The furthest distance in this alignment is Storrs, CT to Salt Lake City, UT and Tampa, FL to Salt Lake City. The distance for both is about 2300 miles (again, highway miles). When you figure that in a two division alignment scheduling could be done to reduce the impact for travel in all sports, I do not see why such an arrangement could not work. This is out-of-the-box thinking at its finest. South Florida is at the biggest disadvantage as they have no close conference schools in either the current alignment or this radical new conference alignment.

Now all that is left is for Tigershark to tell us the flawed logic of this idea. After all, Notre Dame would never go for it.


Last edited by bchokie on Sat Sep 17, 2005 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 5:06 pm 
Offline
All-Star
All-Star

Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2002 12:21 pm
Posts: 1916
Why don't you include Hawaii.how a bc fan think about geography.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:59 pm 
Offline
All-Star
All-Star

Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2002 5:14 pm
Posts: 2663
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Thanks for the response BCHokie. The more I think about the Big East taking four MWC teams the more I like it. In today college sports world, there are few regional teams and most teams must be reached by air. Phoenix to Seattle is not a driving trip by any means. Neither is Boston to Miami. The only two schools close to the Arizona schools are UCLA/USC. All others have to be by air to be fair.

Until someone has a better idea, the 12 team Big East proposal really stacks up well for both divisions.

Utah, NM, Colorado St would match UConn, Rutgers, WVU in the east as the flagship schools or large state supported schools.

BYU would match up with Syracuse.

Cincinnati/Louisville would match up with Pitt/South Fl as large city or state supported city schools.

The problem with Big East thinking is how to get over the basketball only needs and start really looking at the future and what is really best for all sports.

East: Syracuse, UConn, Rutgers, Pitt, WVU, South Fal

West: Utah, BYU, Colorado St, NM, Cincinnati, Louisville

Until someone has a better plan, this is my idea and am sticking with it.

This alignment looks very much like the other five BCS conferences with large flagship state schools in both divisions.

This alignment would put the BE at close to Pac 10 and ACC potential.

Now if only the BE can find a regular top 10 performer like Miami/USC, the future will only get brighter.

I can not see any of the four MWC schools turning down an offer and the Big East football schools need to really think what is best for the future for all sports and not just basketball interest. Besides those four MWC schools have fair to good basketball programs as well. Currently the four would be better than the 8 BE basketball schools with the exception of maybe Notre Dame, Depaul, and Marquette. And most important they would bring four major football programs into the conference that Notre Dame, Marquette, and Depaul never will.

At that leads into my final point. Unless Notre Dame is serious about BE football and not just the BE bowls and playing 3 BE games a year, the 8 football schools would be much better off financially in the future with my proposal.



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 10:16 pm 
There is a reason UTEP, BC, USF, and LA Tech stand out when one looks at a conference map. Each looks out of place with their brethern. At least UTEP has fellow schools from the same state or neighboring states, regardless of the miles. LA Tech is in a pickle. Hawaii cannot help themselves. Miami moved to more logical geography.

Each feels they were moving up for something better, regardless of the miles.

Even in the big money conferences such as the Big 10 and the SEC, there are a heck of a lot of vans, big buses and mini-buses transporting tennis teams, golf teams, track teams, baseball teams, etc. for inner-conference competition. Many of the sports teams of these schools are not like their football teams, or some of their bb teams, jetting a few hundred miles to and from the hosts' airports and dwelling in their finest hotels. School officials from each conference member, often try (maybe for impression reasons) to meet in central locations to reduce extreme travel for some (of course they love meeting in resorts too---maybe also a reason, among the obvious, Florida schools are popular).

I understand the BE if they desire to expand further in fb (or all sports--pending a split) may need to look beyond the northeast or adjacent Ohio Valley. However, it is hoped there would be some geographic logic to it.

Not to totally dismiss the idea, if the BE and MWC develop some sort of inter-conference challenge or found a long term bowl agreement, that could have positive rewards.



Top
  
 
 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:04 am 
Offline
All-Star
All-Star

Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2002 12:21 pm
Posts: 1916
It also appears that ND has added another BE game earlier than 2011.It is likely to start playing Rutgers at the Meadowlands at new Giants/Jets stadium in 2010.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:50 am 
Offline
All-Star
All-Star

Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2002 5:14 pm
Posts: 2663
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Dognthings, I know your are bias on wanting East Carolina in the Big East, however, your arguments do not hold up. If you look at my proposal, Cincy/Lou, BYU/Utah, Pitt/WVU offer travel partners to assist in away games for varsity sports as well. There are some advantages with 12 team conferences as you basically have two conferences in one. By having Lou/Cin in the west division, the varsity sports could make two stops in one shot trip. Some of the western schools that would have to travel more east could receive favorable schedules for travel or be helped in revenue sharing.

There is no way East Carolina could bring to the table what Utah,BYU,New Mexico, and Colorado state could do for all sports. When you compare revenue potential especially TV, East Carolina competes with four other BCS schools. Utah/BYU would have exclusive state wide support as well as New Mexico. Colorado State gets a lot of state wide support in a growing state with only one BCS school.

I fully understand the Conf USA fans, Tigersharktwo, and Dognthings fearful of my proposal. Simply put, it works and is a great idea. It would distance the Big East from the other non BCS conferences and would put the Big East on solid BCS ground.

This leads into the final point. BC and Virginia Tech are both in a new conference directly based on the power of the BCS.

Without BCS football, the varsity sports are insignificant. So what if you cant bus the kids, BC and Miami realize this by competing in the ACC. So do all the Pac 10 schools. Iowa to Texas is not a bus trip and neither is Arkansas to Florida. Iowa to your own Penn State is one of the hardest trips of all. The eastern schools use to complain about lack of good air service to State College.

So my idea is equal to the other five BCS conferences. BYU/Utah/NM/Colorado State currently travel with all sports. Cincinatti and Louisville in the west would have close by Pitt and WVU for minor sports as well.

The is only one way my idea will not fly and become a reality is any decision based on a school in South Bend joining BE football.

Otherwise, it makes sense when a split occurs that the Big East would take Utah/BYU, and two other state schools out west. If one of the other schools is not interested then factor in UNLV similiar to ACC having Va Tech as a backup in the event Syracuse decided to not join the ACC.

Sorry guys, but you have to have a stronger argument than travel for varisty sports.

Otherwise its check mate.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:32 am 
Lash, in this one---I come much closer to agreeing with Tigershark, at least in the concept of regional continuity--not necessarily the particular schools.
You change your point-of-view often, which gets confusing in trying to follow the level of seriousness with your arguments. The concept of travel partners is to offer a school at least one close-by rival and to provide visiting traveling squads for minor sports to make "two" in one trip. It doesn't work for football and not often for basketball.
If the commonality between the MWC and the BE is one of close parity, then why did you just claim the superiority of the BE? Then what's your rationale? One has nine fb members, the other has eight. Maybe some common ground there, but hardly grounds for a cross country union.
The underlying assumption behind the BCS is that the auto-members perform at a higher level and their representatives are near equally deserving in being on the same platform.
If one excludes the top 5 BCS conferences, and an informed individual could pick twelve from all the rest (BE, MWC, WAC, CUSA, MAC, SB, independents), certainly a super conference could be found near equal, or perhaps even better, than those among the top BCS five. This would dismiss geography and focus on "who is hot now" for identity purposes. The MWC is not alone in the hypothetical possibilities.
Much of the pride of the SEC, PAC10, B10, and some with the others, is their geographic continuity and regional identity. Someone could do a dream conference and put Southern Cal and Miami of FLA in it and call it the "Sunshine Coast to Coast" Conference.
You pointed out my mentioning of ECU as a BE past and future consideration. That too, has a foundation in regionalism which I have made arguments in behalf of that exceed travel expenses. I am solidly consistent on this point, whether it is the matter of BC, LA Tech, UTEP, USF, or others near similar.
The BE is safe, but may need to add one to four teams over time pending a split or if there is a desire for divisional play. The politics of the MWC and the BE will not mesh for formulated same-conference membership. The "Villanova Theory", which I seriously questioned, is far more realistic by comparison.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 4:01 pm 
Offline
All-Star
All-Star

Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2002 5:14 pm
Posts: 2663
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Dogsthings, I dont change my views just the format with changes and benefits of 9, 10, or 12. I am on the 12 team format at the moment and trying to get the best possible solution for the 8 Big East schools in this scenerio. You have to shuffle many teams in and out of scenerios to get the best two teams. You think the SEC and ACC woke up one day and put the figure on SC and Arkansas and Syracuse/Miami/BC without some thought and team comparions.

In my plan there is regional continuity. BYU/Utah/New Mexico/Colorado State have western large state supported school continuity. UConn/Syracuse/Pitt/WVU/Rutgers have the old eastern continuity.
South Florida is at odds, however, dont for one miniute think South Florida is not licking its chops to be part of a BCS conference. Besides South Florida is srategic in requiting benefits. Sort of like BC in the ACC on second round for market benefits.

Cincinnati/Louisville are a western expansion for the Big East from old east to south coast teams. So it just makes sense to have them in a west division of a 12 team conference. Both have not developed the old traditional rivalries that Syracse,WVU,Pitt have. Both have great basketball to balance out the west division.

I am assumming that none of us on this board will make any decision on future Big East expansion.

We can only guess at which scenerio is best. Money is always the biggest benefit. TV brings in money that would be enhanced with the flagship state schools out west.

So if I were making the decision on BE football schools splitting and building a 12 team conference, the four MWC would be my target. Just like the ACC, TV contracts have to help with the additonal cost of upgrading with more teams.

So there is as much continuity with UConn and Utah as there is with UConn and East Carolina.

I can only predict what the Big East would do in expansion if a split were to occur which I think will happen in five years. I think the first option would be to look at 12 verses 10.

East Carolina or Villanova do not fit the 12 team alignment and I have proven the benefits with the four continuity teams out west. Villanova cant upgrade and East Carolina is overshadowed by the ACC.

So sorry Dognthings and Tigersharktwo, there are far better options that taking a problem market and a team with not much market when there are simply better options out there.

My plan is based on economics simliar and not logic. Similar to how ACC expanded with first plans of Miami,BC,Syracuse and not the regional concept of Miami/Va Tech/WVU as was the popular opinion of most.

It all comes down to economics in the new super conference era of college sports and regionlism is less important and market shares are much more important especially if its a flagship state supported school that is available.

Sure if would be nice to have BC,Syracuse,UConn,Penn State, Pitt, Rutgers, WVU, Maryland, Virginia, Va Tech, North Carolina, NC State as this would be regional continuity. In reality this concept is go by the way side.

Again regional continuity is not a good argument and you are still in check mate.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 7:31 pm 
Don't even suggest taking me on in chess! What you said Lash is bizarre, and you are a seasoned poster.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:06 pm 
Offline
All-Star
All-Star

Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2002 5:14 pm
Posts: 2663
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Dognthings, your being too serious on me today. I am not the best chess player so you probably would have me beat in an actual chess match in most matches.

Since the folks who actually could make a future decision with Big East probably never post on this board (maybe review for ideas), we poster should not take ourselves too seriously with our debates.

Who knows maybe East Carolina has a lot of support with BE football members as a potential expansion candidate.

I used check mate as a term to identify expansion options as it really sort of does resember chess in some ways. The ACC took some serious real estate from the BE when the expansion occured. Chess is all about real estate and taking key players off the board. Miami was sort of the Big East king or possibly the queen and Va Tech and BC were strong knights.

Sorry Dogsnthings and no disrespect intended you have not provided a solid argument on a better option of teams if the Big East expanded to 12.

I am just trying to be objective. If you can come up with a better option over my four MWC teams, then I am certainly open to change.

If we both were presently the ideas to the Big East football schools and they were actually interested in a split and expanding to 12 teams, I think they would be taking my idea seriously and not just because the four teams are out west.

So again the challenge is to prove me wrong on my plan and determine a better method of the BE reaching 12 football schools.

I have tried myself and cant find a fault in the plan using the four MWC as potential BE expansion candidates. Please prove me wrong. So far you or Tigershark have not. I would like to find a hole in this play myself and cant.

If I were a Big East football school, the arguments you presented would look to favor East Carolina and not what would be in the best interest of future Big East football. The same is true with Tigershark argument to include Villanova simply because the school is in Philly metro area.




Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:20 pm 
Lash, acknowledge your comments ;). We are all speculating. Do you really think the Big East is going to think outside the box, much less go for a radical design? This is the BIG EAST we are talking about :o. They have not even embraced "all sports" yet, and have a legion of bb teams plus whatever they allow ND to use. Do you really believe anything with Utah and company could ever enter into Tranghese's thinking? Com' on, he was at the helm when the departures to the ACC occurred, and the additions on both sides of the ledger were predictable in forging the temporary and placating compromise. This is BE mindset whether seen as traditional or out of sync. I'd settle on the BE actually binding with each other as a reasonable goal. Most think the conference is holding together for convenience till the time is ripe to split.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:43 am 
Offline
All-Star
All-Star

Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2002 5:14 pm
Posts: 2663
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Dognthings, ironic to our conversations there is a rumor on East Carolina boards that Mike Tranghese will retire at the end of the year. Is this wishful thinking or could there be some truth to this. I think more than anything MT is the glue that keeps the three entites running in harmony with fb schools, bb schools and ND.

I dont think everyone gives enough credit to the Big East football schools with expansion. There are 8 all sports schools in the conference. The Big East did a fabulous job in getting back to 8 all sports schools. Louisville surgence in football was a bit of luck and brings a great basketball program as well. Cincinnati was needed to provide strength for basketball as well in the event of a split. We all know South Florida is in for strategic purposes that have great requiting advantages.

So the first wave of expansiion for the all sports side of the house was excellent to get to minimum number of 8.

I do think a split is inevitable in five years. The big question is will the Big East football schools go to 9, 10, or directly to 12.

If they go to 12, there has to be some major market benefits for TV that would provide merits to my idea of taking four MWC teams.

The could go to 10 and take Utah/BYU to see how things work out and put some ground between the Big East and MWC/WAC schools.

I think the Big East schools are much smarter than everyone gives them credit in expansion terms. The basketball schools are there for now as a compromise and have the 8 schools necessary for a split on that side as well. There is great tradition between the basketball and football schools so the football schools will not pull an ACC stunt and leave them high and dry.

There is a plan for a split which just makes sense.

I use to believe the Big East would look for another eastern based team such as Central Fla or Memphis to get to 9 and then expand around the north to south base to get to 10 or eventually 12.

I think there is bigger fish to fry. Utah/BYU as travel pair would bring the conference to 10 and expansion latter to include western or eastern teams if necessary to get to 12 could be one method.

There is a risk with this plan as the Pac 10 could wake up a decide its best options are taking BYU/Utah to get to 12. The Pac 10 could also look at UNLV and SDSU or Hawaii as two potentail teams to reach 12.

If the Big East splits and go directly to 12 using the four MWC schools, it is unlikely that any of those schools would bolt and join the Pac 10. The potential of my plan would have both conferences at near equal in a few years with Big East football schools already are better in basketball than the Pac 10.

So it is just speculation and somewhat of guess work.

I just think the better option would be for the Big East to jump right into 12 and take the best four schools that do not share a current BCS market. Colorado State is my only exception as this is corner stone bridging of NM and Utah/BYU in the west segment. Otherwise it would look fragemented if UNLV, were included as a state without a BCS school.

I think East Carolina and Villanova have five years to really do something to enhance the profile of those schools for football to have any realistic chance to be included in a 12 team all sports league. Villanova obvouisly would have to move up to 1A and most likely obtain funding to build a new stadium or expand the stadium to 40 thousand plus. East Carolina would most likely have to become a regular top 25 football team to get any consideration would be my guess.

Both schools have a very tall order to fill and just dont believe either school can come up with the goods to make enough splash to be part of an all sports conference when other options make better sense.

Five years counting the current season is not a long time. Actually its four years to make some headway as Villanova is in 1AA this year and East Carolina is not showing much progress to date losing to lowly Wake Forest.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:45 pm 
Offline
All-Conference
All-Conference

Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2003 11:18 pm
Posts: 758
Ironically if this was 5 seasons ago then ECU would probally have been taken in by the BE if the ACC raided then. Can they make it up, probally more than likely, just hitting a down time that could be at wrong time for ECU. But the attendance is still there amazingly.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 173 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Quinn and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
 

 




Looking for College Sports apparel? Support our partner:








Support Our Partners: Search Engine Marketing - Search Engine Optimization - Search Engine Training - Online Marketing for Restuarants

Subway Map Shirts - Food and Travel

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group