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 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:56 pm 
When the BCS got going, ECU football declined. Being in a BCS conference has its advantages in recruiting, and the ACC schools have used that point to ECU's disadvantage.

It is hard for a school like ECU to make a case it belongs in the BCS without first having the BCS label.

Temple's past of not having an all-sports home, among other factors, hurt them too.

Some schools just got luck, due to location for example. South Florida is relatively new to college football and has little to point to in terms of winning tradition.


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 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:42 am 
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SportsKC, agreed.

South Florida is lucky to be in its location and so is Miami for that matter. Miami is the hot bed of high school requiting of southern Florida. I love the Orange Bowl, however, its old and run down and in a really bad area. Location is everything and that is why I am going to provide a seperate new thread so my BE expansion of four MWC schools do not get lost in the shuffle.

I think a decision on BE expansion will occur in 2007 when each BCS conference is up for renewal. The football schools do not have to wait until five years is up to make a decision to expand for July 1, 2010. A decision in 2007 for split would provide the 27 months of notice and complete the 5 year agreeement by 2010.

Time is not on the side of many schools that want to make the cut for the last guaranteed BCS conference that will need to expand to ensure BCS success.

Please see my new thread:

Big East Football July 1, 2010.


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 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:58 am 
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I still think East Carolina has a good shot at joining the Big East.

The Big East/MWC combo idea isn't going to happen because of geography reasons and to be honest putting two mediocre conferences together is not going to put them in a stronger position.

One of the more important things to look at on conference realignment is how does the Big East stack up relative to the non-BCS conferences.

Last year, CUSA with Louisville, TCU, and South Florida was about as strong as the Big East with WVU, Pitt, and UConn.

This year, the Big East is heads and shoulders above with Louisville, WVU, South Florida, and UConn versus UAB, Marshall, Memphis, and UTEP.

CUSA used to be up there in the Sagarin's with the MWC and the Big East. Now its down near the WAC and MAC. I think it makes the most sense for future Big East expansion to take more bites out of CUSA, especially big ones like East Carolina, Marshall and UCF that play in the footprint and their absence from CUSA transforms that conference into a mid major version of the SWC. It would also prevent CUSA from effectively recruiting the eastern seaboard without these schools and eliminate them as a regional threat.


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 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:26 am 
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joefather, you are very wrong on several fronts. First of all the Big East is hardly mediocre with a team currently ranked in the top ten in football. The common myth is both the Big East and MWC are not BCS worthy which again is not true. Utah won a BCS game last year and went undefeated.

When you take the Big East football schools which are major league in basketball similar to the old ACC and add the best of another league you get similar results the ACC got with expansion.

Your arguments on geography were the same arguments provided to the ACC on taking Syracuse and BC and the same arugments when way back the Big 8 was expanding and looking to the SWC teams or way way back when the Pac 10 expanded with the two Arizona schools.

Geography in my plan works like the other BCS conferences with travel partners similar to how Pac 10 schedules away games with two teams on same weekend.

You guys need to get over the East Carolina's and Ohio's which will bring nothing to the interest of the guys setting across the table when Big East is up for renewal for BCS.

Having three primary state schools in both divisions that have no BCS schools and large city schools in states with one BCS school will get the attention of the BCS.

Sorry Joefather you guys need to look at the real world and see the benefits from a bigger picture. Every want to be major program out there simply does not have the means to compete at the highest level of college sports including football and basketball.


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 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:46 pm 
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Quote:
joefather, you are very wrong on several fronts. First of all the Big East is hardly mediocre with a team currently ranked in the top ten in football. The common myth is both the Big East and MWC are not BCS worthy which again is not true. Utah won a BCS game last year and went undefeated.

Sorry Joefather you guys need to look at the real world and see the benefits from a bigger picture. Every want to be major program out there simply does not have the means to compete at the highest level of college sports including football and basketball.


What I was trying to say is two medicore BCS level conferences, the Big East and the MWC (yes the Big East is medicore as a BCS conference) is only going to result in a larger conference of the same level.

Louisville is a top 10 team but the MWC has nobody ranked. Its not the same as taking two top ten yearly programs like Miami and VT and putting them into the ACC. Nobody in the MWC is strong enough to make a difference for the Big East. The Big East would be better served trying to go after a 9th eastern team like ECU that would travel well to Big East bowl games.

Further, I expect both the MWC and the Big East to be in the BCS in 4 years or both out of it.


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 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:10 pm 
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joefather, the same thing was always made about the old ACC and old BE. Both are not up to the other four major conferences.

Well when ACC expanded to 12, the media could not get enough of them and revenue soon followed.

The ACC went from the 5th rated conference to number two overnight. How do you figure that 5th and 6th rated conference goes up to number 2?

Once again disagree and your agrguments do not hold up.

Again you are missing the big point on important reason the Big East has its current automatic bid and that is because the BCS wants to keep interest in those markets.

I think the Big East will keep its automatic bid regardless if the conferenc expands or not, my plan just moves the conference closer to the other 5 BCS conferences. The closer is in revenue, something that conferences outside of the big 6 do not understand.

Again, if the Big East does expand for football which is very likely, Ohio or East Carolina will not be considered as there are far better options out there. Neither were considered when the Big East expanded in the first round and my bet is neither will get considered in the second wave.

Life can be tough.

East Carolina and Ohio U are in the right type of conferences. Get use to it!



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 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:20 pm 
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I am in agreement with Lash here.

I think geography and travel costs are the only weaknesses with this "take 4 from the MWC" concept for Big East expansion.

If this happened, a name change would probably need to follow, as Big East would sound awkward.

Now it is not a perfect concept due to geography. But those 4 MWC are probably the best choices in a grouping of teams that can contribute to really enhancing the BE already established BCS status. The markets simply would provide an out-front TV footprint and has a lot of potential in TV revenue, given it would be the only major conference in NY state, CT, NJ, WV, UT, NM, and nearly equal parts of PA, CO, and regional/metro shares of OH, KY and FL. I think it would be a solid TV conference and comparable to the Pac 10 and Big 12.

To the critics of this concept. Don't completely reject it. It could be a possible option.

Now if gas prices go up, and permanently stay there, then this concept may become a weaker in viability, even at a BCS level. I can see mid-major/minor mid-major conferences having troubles in the future with increase gas prices. Delta and Northwest Airlines are now bankrupt.

I really support Lash's concept here.


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 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:00 pm 
Add Army, Navy, Ohio, and East Carolina to the BE fb 8 and that is 12 teams for two divisions. That's really a lot of parity in the BE.

Utah and another could go to the PAC 10. Utah State could replace Utah in the MWC.


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 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:04 pm 
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Metropolitan, thanks as I though you would support this idea.

If gas prices keep going up were all in trouble.

Not to be too foreward, I already have a new name selected which would let the basketball schools keep the name they help to create.

Big America. Its intimidating and would stretch from west of the Rockies to New England and from Upstate New York to the beaches of south Florida. And at the same time only require 12 teams like normal BCS conferences and bring three new states into the BCS without requiring another BCS bid all in one swoop.

I think its exciting and the Big East football schools would be foolish to not explore this idea.


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 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:23 pm 
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Quote:

Again, if the Big East does expand for football which is very likely, Ohio or East Carolina will not be considered as there are far better options out there. Neither were considered when the Big East expanded in the first round and my bet is neither will get considered in the second wave.

Life can be tough.

East Carolina and Ohio U are in the right type of conferences. Get use to it!


Utah and BYU are also in the right type of conference. A western conference. From travel, TV time zones, and value added, the MWC schools don't belong in the Big East.

According to the Big East papers, East Carolina was considered for Big East membership, but rejected. The MWC schools, and the 1-AA football schools never had any consideration.

Then with Ohio, you're looking at a school that much like Virginia Tech did in the 1980's, is making a move toward being more of a statewide force in athletics and academics. They already have the most impressive BCS win for the MAC this season, and had the only BCS win for the conference last year. Looking at where they could be 5-10 years down the road with Frank Solich, and a 13,000 seat basketball arena they have some major conference potential. This school is a 2 hour drive from UC and WVU and a 3-4 hour drive to Pitt and Louisville.

You could have some serious attendance numbers at Ohio in both football and men's basketball if you put them in the Big East with those schools close by. They already have some of the best support numbers in the MAC in the two major sports. Just like VT however, being a remote school its going to take some time to mature. It's not an overnight deal like UConn or USF with big metro markets to quickly ramp up the financial support. Ohio is at the CUSA level right now with bringing in a big name coach like Frank Solich but is not there yet as a national factor on the recruiting trail like Big East schools. It could be 10 years until the next realignment and whoever is ready at that point will be moving up.


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 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:57 pm 
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It might be exciting and makes some $ense but I don't know if the BEFB would go for it. I still think they might want to stay in the northeast or eastern US for that matter.


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 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:51 am 
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SportsKC, rest assured the only thing the BE football schools are concerned about is maitaining BCS membership. This has been top priority when Miami was a member and is more urgent issue in today's changing college landschape.

I think the BE football schools will do what ever is necessary to remain a part of the BCS. If that means split from the basketball schools and take four MWC schools to achieve this goal then thats what they will do.

joefather, you simply do not get it on big time conferences. The Big East thinks big and not small time. That is why the confernce has always been a major thinking conference and is great in basketball and has BCS membership.

I know for a fact that East Carolina and Marshall were never considered for BE membership. East Carolina and Ohio both applyed to the BE. That does not mean anything, many of the BE schools applied to SEC, ACC, and Big 10 once Miami was leaving.

If the Big East does not take my smart idea by taking four MWC schools to get good BCS results, there are far better options over East Carolina and Ohio. The state of Ohio is already tapped and the state of North Carolina is over tapped.

If you remain eastward, Memphis, Central Florida, Florida Atlantic, Houston, TCU all bring much more to the table than Ohio or East Carolina. I would bet major bucks both of those schools get any consideration for membership. Simply put, they do not bring anything to the table. The Big East is not a charity organization.

Both schools would hurt BCS chances. Both schools do not have much in varsity sports success, and most important most schools come from small towns in BCS states. Can you tell me when either school reached the NCAA tournament. Or better yet, the NIT.

I am trying to be harsh just look at things realistic.

The four MWC schools in my plan would make much more money and play in much more presitge basketball league. Any one of the four would bring more to the table than East Carolian and Ohio combined.

Please come back to debate when both of those schools are in the top 25 for either basketball or football.

Travel in major conferences are not the primary consideration. Revenue is top priority. With good revenue streams all other issues can be over come.

Now you are forgetting one more benefit to the four MWC schools. They all four are closer to my home town of Phoenix than any Big 12 school if your looking for a future host conference for the BCS based Fiesta Bowl. Utah brought a ton of fans last year.

Guys you simply are fighting a losing battle with hopes of having East Carolina and Ohio in the future Big East. You are setting yourselves up for major dissapointment.

East Carolina is second class status based on the ACC and not the BE. Same true for Ohio with Big 10. If both of these schools were BCS material they both would be in the ACC or Big 10.


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 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:03 pm 
When the ACC took BC for the final act of expansion, geography, being contiguous, partnerships, and footprints, were all discussed as part of the speculation. Many thought, and still do, BC was a near perfect ACC addition in all factors but distance. The ACC declined pursuing other closer types such as WVU, Temple, and Rutgers.
Part of the ACC rationale, in addition to the academic and traditional characteristics of BC, was to stamp a northeastern star on its ACC map and to garner the pluses that may ultimately follow, including divisional play and a championship game.
In the context of geography, the BC addition was rational. It is not contiguous in terms of the line of neighboring states, but it is on the Atlantic coast that stretches, for the ACC, from Coral Gables to Chestnut Hill.
LA Tech's situation in the WAC is different. They were in the WAC prior to the Texas schools and Tulsa's shift to C-USA. LA Tech wanted in C-USA when TCU departed for the MWC. LA Tech did not want to return to the SunBelt because of the presence of LA-Monroe and LA-L in the league, and some regard that the WAC had a bit more of an established image. While geographic continuity has its merits, too much concentration, particularly from one state, can have drawbacks. Part of the complaints about the MAC is that it draws heavy from the states of Ohio and Michigan.
UTEP knows they are an outskirt school. But they also wanted into a conference that offered Texas rivals.
USF was added to the BE as a matter of location. While I tend to view the Florida connection as a bit over-rated, the rationale is there---recruits, bowl locations, nice away trips, up-and-coming school, and some relief from the Miami departure. Geography was a factor.
Remember, Idaho and Utah State were once in the Sun Belt. Though it was not BCS, it was a bond of convenience. It was transitional, and the schools knew this from the get-go.
To formulate conferences, solely for convenience, or "catch all", brings with it measures that are contrary to solidity. To create a conference solely for BCS measures, and dismissing the other pertinent commonalities, is a recipe for further non-settlement. The BE (or any name revision) needs as much continuity as it can muster, not far-flung membership. They need to move away from this stuff, not embrace it further.
The BE has tried to hang onto its northeast identity which is respectable. They moved into the Ohio Valley because they essentially had to in terms of the best available. This is now a part of their base, and is their western flank.


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 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:04 pm 
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Dognthings, when those Florida kids play at a Big East school facing your future Penn State team, you will soon realize that Florida talent is not overrated. South Florida is new to major football and Penn State struggled with this team at home.

The Big East did expand into the Ohio Valley out of necessity and will expand further out of the east when necessity comes calling again.

Please give it up on the regional argument it just not going to fly. Sorry but it just obvouis the arguments do not hold up.

Why does Penn State travel to Minneapolis and Iowa City every other year? Ohio State is the only close school if you can call that close. It was due to necessity of being part of a major conference with similiar type schools. Likewise the BE has to view the same benefits and look for like type schools for future expansion options.


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 Post subject: A Modest Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:48 pm 
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Well Lash, Ohio made the NCAA tournament last year so that argument you got wrong. :) ECU is really strong in baseball. And fairly recent have had success in football. So basically you just pulled a TS2 when you made that statement.

Now I have not been a major supporter of the ECU to the BE campaign, but they would be a solid school for the BE to consider if they are staying in the eastern US.

The plan for the MWC schools is not bad. It makes $ense, but is probally the 2nd most unrealistic plan for the BE. The plan TS2 throws around its probally the most unrealistic plan but would be the best for the BE. I have always said that Memphis & Temple plus Army & Navy for FB only is probally what goes down. The BE is not a big flagship type conference like the rest of the BCS conferences, it is made up of a good mix between flagship, state owned city schools, and private. Memphis & Temple fit the mold. Army & Navy have the national profile in football, while not powerhouses by no means they have a national fan base plus are located in two big tv markets - NYC & Baltimore-DC.

I still don't think the BE will lose its BCS status no matter what they do. They got schools that are BCS calibar and they carry the most powerful tv markets in the country.



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