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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:28 pm 
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ND won't schedule UC and UL unless they had to in a conference schedule for the same reasons the B10 wouldn't consider them: Attendance and academic standing. ND schedules either big state flagships, private schools (BYU, BC, Stanford and even Vanderbilt have made their schedule recently) or military academies. They don't schedule commuter schools-or to use SG's terminology-"urban grants." Marshall and Fresno aren't likely to make the ND schedule either.

Since ND is trying to increase their number of home games, it is likely the home only games will be against schools like Tulane, Rice, New Mexico and Utah, schools similar to their current opponents except they are not BCS schools. BCS schools looking for $ or recognition like UConn, Rutgers, Vanderbilt and Wake Forest might also make the list. Marshall, Fresno, Louisville and Cincinnati aren't likely to show up soon on the ND schedule.


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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:50 pm 
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ND is not going anywhere for football.They like the bowl arrangement with the BE.When the 12th game comes in they will play Army as well as Navy.As time goes on they will play a few more BE teams.ND is fully backing with heavy support the BE in the BCS.


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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:09 pm 
The Big 10 does play MAC teams out-of-conference. Cincinatti has played Ohio State recently. Notre Dame does select some academic reputable privates, academies, and some big state schools.

Notre Dame will certainly play a BYU, SMU, or an Ole Miss as they have done in the past. I doubt an East Carolina, a Southern Miss, a Troy, or a Florida Atlantic will show on their schedule. A Nebraska will do the latter. So will a Miami (Fla) to a degree.

School imagery has been a pattern for Notre Dame. The University of South Florida is not their cup of tea.


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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:20 pm 

Quote:
ND is fully backing with heavy support the BE in the BCS.


Maybe so, TS2. But ND has their own independent access to the BCS. Perhaps they want BE political support in return to maintain their own special criteria. They have an interest in BE status due to their basketball and bowl affiliations. It certainly is not based on ND's love of BE football or any plans to join the BE in fb.

Notre Dame's place at the BCS roundtable is almost a conference unto itself. No other single school has such a unique avenue. That is why some others are complaining about this.


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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:34 pm 
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Bullet, agreed that Notre Dame will want a lot of future home and no return games which will rule out future BCS members Cincinnati and Louisville.

If a split were to occur with the fb and bb schools, do not see any issues with bb schools taking Notre Dame since none of those schools play 1A football. Not sure why there would be issues with Notre Dame making a lot of money off football. The BB schools are primary reason Notre Dame is in the Big East in the first place. In fact the basketball schools are the reason Notre Dame has membership and is not required to play football in the Big East. No other all sports league would even consider this type of alignment for a school.

I see Notre Dame having an issue or not wanting to be in a basketball only conference. Last summer when the football schools were looking at splitting, Notre Dame was considering going with the football schools for all sports except football.

The SportingNews basketball yearbook was very negative on the new 16 team bb alignment. Not that this has any input into decisions, however, there were good points made about the future Big East. This magazine has similiar views as myself. The Big East will be better this year by being less loated. More of the teams will play each other. Next year 16 teams create the same bloated situation.

Maybe I am not seeing the forest for the trees, however, just cant see how 16 teams are better than a 9 team all sports conference. Apparently SportingNews and other national publications have the same views.

If the football schools finally realize what some of the national sports fan think and decide that maybe an all sports conference is the only way to go, Notre Dame is in a pickle and must make a decision. It is a common rumor or assumption that the 16 alignment is agreed to remain for a 5 year trial period to see how things work. A lot of fans do not put much faith in this alignment and a so the remors persist on an evtual split.

The three likely options for Notre Dame would be in this order:

1. join the Big 10
2. join the Big East all sports
3. remain independent in football and part of bb schools






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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:41 pm 
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Tigersharktwo,

What happens if the football schools want to go somewhere else like a 9 team all sports league.

Your are too quick to assume the BE football schools are happy with the current arrangements.

You keeping talking about all the revenue that is being made at the same time the football schools are fighting so many issue in court. Syracuse is having to raise tuition fees and was all but prepared to move out to an all sports league.

It will not be Notre Dame decision on what happpens to the future Big East football league. Obvouis Notre Dame is not helping at all with current budget issues. Your theory that all the football schools will just sit back and take the money when there is not much money being made and 16 teams are going to futher cut into this revenue.

Again what happens if the football schools decide they have had enough a go out on their own. Currently the 8 football schools would contiue to be one of the top 5 basketball leagues and would appear to generate the same amount of revenue.

I just dont get the math of how you think Notre Dame is helping out financially. I see Notre Dame more of burdon in revenue. A 9th football school would provide one more conference game for each team and would keep all that money in the conference. Where now, an away game provides all that extra revenue to the other team or confernces.


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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 3:57 pm 
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JMO, but I think the key to a split is to whether the BE will keep its BCS bid after this contract is up (or 2007 or whenever that criteria comes into effect). IF the BE looks like it will be stable and will keep the FB revenue coming in (ie BCS), I really don't see a scenerio where the BE stays together, especially if the Gator Bowl (1.9 mil) dumps the BE. That means ND doesn't really bring anything to FB except the Insight.com bowl (750k), which can be easily replaced. I believe that ND doesn't have any BE teams scheduled in the next 5 years (after this year with Pitt and SU?).

IF the BE FB looks like they want to split (because they perhaps keep the BCS bid), then the only carrot ND has to put on the table that could possibly keep the BE together is to schedule MORE BE FB teams in a home and home on a YEARLY basis. IF TS2 says is true, that teams get $1 million (or somewhere around that), then it becomes a good deal for the BE FB schools to stay with the BB schools. I would think that a minimum of 3-4 games per year (not including Navy) 'could' do it.

If the BE FB doesn't look like it will keep the BCS bid, then it 'MAY' make financial sense to stay together, depending on the BB revenue.



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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:35 pm 
Non-BCS schools getting access to the designated bowls is one thing. The criteria was modified a bit increase the possibility for an exceptional team.

However, a conference being scrutinized as to whether or not they are deserving is another matter. The Big 10, SEC, ACC, Big 12, & PAC 10 are not going to be criticized often concerning their representatives. The BE, on the other hand, may need to do more for the long term than to just boot Temple and add 3 C-USA replacements. The BE is weak on total number (8) compared to the others. By comparison, the long stable PAC 10 has 2 more members than the BE and the rest are 11 or 12. Having a multitude of bb schools does nothing to enhance BE fb concerning the BCS, particularly with one of them being Notre Dame, who is refusing to contribute to BE fb.
I am not in any way suggesting the BE lose its automatic bid. However, the BE's slate of fb schools cannot be distinguished from the level of prime non-BCS conferences (MWC, et. al.) to the extent the other 5 BCS conferences display for the long term.
The BE could improve their situation by working to secure a respectable 9th member. That is not the final answer, but would help. To expect Louisville will be the new Miami is shortsighted. Either the BE acts, or their status could change in a couple of years.
At this juncture in the season, why argue against Utah competing for an at large BCS bid?


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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:17 am 
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This post probably belongs on another thread, or it could belong on this thread or both. With that said, I'll jump right into my post: ND needs to crap or get off the toilet!!! I'm beginning to think that if push came to shove, ND would actually join a conference. Now, the question is this: how do we get that "push come to shove"? There is the $50 million question. What's going to have to happen is that the BCS and the Big East are going to have to put their delusions and fears aside and start thinking practically. If the BCS shuts ND out, just what does ND have for a recourse? Seriously, what options does ND have if it is shut out of the BCS? I don't care if ND is #5 in either the AP or Coaches polls or both. If ND isn't in the BCS, ND can only go to a very good non-BCS bowl. Period. End of discussion. And that will get ND thinking. Yes, the bowls' will probably balk at this at first. But really, what do the bowls have to lose?? The BCS can really play this factor up if they really wanted to. Now to the Big East. The first thing the BE needs to do is determine which is better: all-sports or the current 16 conglomeration monster that it currently has. I suspect the Big East would go for all-sports long-term. We know that ND is not too keen on being in a conference with other basketball-only schools.
The BE tried to shuffle off ND with G'town, SJU, etc., and ND said "no way Jose!!" That's part of the reason why we have this 16 team conglomeration to begin with in the BE. If ND is put in this situation again, plus if it had to deal with being shut out of the BCS, ND would start seriously looking for an all-sports home ASAP. Where would ND join? To tell the truth, no one really knows presently. But, I like to look at Miami's move to the ACC as an indication of how ND might act. Why did Miami leave the BE? Better geographics, $$, and tv deal. Would ND be likely to join the ACC? I don't think so. The ACC and the SEC are primarily southern conferences with a few exceptions. ND is a northern team. That rules out southern conferences. Who are you left with: the Big East, the Big Ten, and the MAC.
Since the MAC isn't a BCS conference, we can rule out that possibility. Now we're down to the Big East and the Big Ten. ND is very familiar with the Big Ten in football. However, ND is very unfamiliar with the Big Ten in everything else. ND is very familiar with the Big East in all-sports but football. Now, back to Miami and the ACC. Miami had an invite to join the SEC at one time. However, as we all know Miami didn't join the SEC. Why? Miami cited a lack of private schools being in the SEC. Vandy is the only private school in the SEC right now. Also, UF wasn't too crazy about the idea of having to compete with Miami in the SEC. Plus, it was easier for Miami to get to the national title game by being in the Big East as opposed to the SEC. The SEC has a lot of parity. The Big East does not. Miami jumps at the ACC. Why? Like the Big East, the ACC also does not have much parity. Like the Big East, the ACC also had more than one private school in the conference. Basically, the ACC had the advantages of the Big East, plus it was a southern conference. Miami jumps. Now lets look at Notre Dame, the Big East and the Big Ten.
As I've stated previously, there is not much parity in the Big East. Beat WVU, and you've practically won the conference. Now look at the Big Ten. There is a LOT of parity in the Big Ten. Advantage: Big East. The Big Ten might as well be the SEC North-- only one private school in the conference: Northwestern. In contrast, the Big East definitely has more than one private school in the conference. Advantage: Big East.
This is why I don't put too much stock in ND to the Big Ten rumors anymore. Recents trends don't favor that happening.


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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 8:38 pm 
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Lash-the reason the bb schools might have a problem with ND is that ND has vastly greater resources because of fb. ND can, and has, invested in its non-revenue sports. The bb schools may not want to be in a conference where bb is the only sport they have a chance to consistently compete in and ND wins almost all the other titles. If I were an AD, I would be happy with DePaul for the Chicago market and no ND. Fact is, ND doesn't add much in $ other than fb. It has been 25 years since their bb team was consistently ranked.

DawgDuckfan-I see 4 main factors for ND:
1) $$$$-advantage Big 10. Bigger $ in guaranteed TV contract and guaranteed bowl slots
2) tradition-advantage Big 10 (UM, MSU, NW, Purdue, PSU are all frequent historical opponents, only Pitt fills that in the Big East)
3) Academics-advantage Big 10. Faculty were very excited about joining the Big 10 academic consortium a few years back when it looked like ND was joining. There is nothing similar in BE and the newer BE fb schools are not Big 10 caliber in academics (UL, UC, UConn, USF).
4) Flexibility-advantage BE. ND would have scheduling flexibility much more in BE as well as the possibility of their own TV contract. But then, if their TV contract is maintained, they are probably not likely to seek a conference short of a "fair" bowl or playoff system which would make them compete for post-season slots on the same basis as everyone else.


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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:56 pm 
I concur that some of D&D's well-stated points could be taken seriously regarding Notre Dame pondering about joining a conference.
Agree Bullet that the academic consortium was a popular idea with the Notre Dame faculty a few years back, and Notre Dame has geographic centrality and long established fb rivalries with certain B10 schools.
Academics, though while important, will not be the primary driving force for Notre Dame to join a conference or necessarily which one. However, the BE does have some fb schools that Notre Dame may not find attractive for "all sports", i. e. USF, Cincy, and L'ville. They would not schedule them as an Independent unless there were few options.
On the other hand, the BE is already the home for ND bb and most other sports. The BE would also be more flexible in granting Notre Dame $$$ priviledges with TV and perhaps scheduling. It would also be a factor in delaying/preventing a BE split of which Notre Dame has a stake. Where could Notre Dame reign kingpin?
It should not be assumed the Big 10 will do anything to acquire Notre Dame. While the consensus is that the Big10 still has its invitation open to Notre Dame, the Big10 would need to articulate its divisions and decide whether or not to pursue a championship game. The Big10 is more secure than the BE, and although Notre Dame is the most charming possibility, the Big10 has other teams it could consider if the desire for #12 was profound.
Penn State has advocated for another "eastern" team in the Big10. While they have some notable tradition with Notre Dame, and would prefer the opportunity to be playing them again, they and others may not be in the "only Notre Dame" mode.
The point about the BCS may be critical in the decision-making. Notre Dame's special status and bowl favorability are rendered or enabled by other schools and conferences. Notre Dame will not commit as long as conferences are standing with open invitiations, there is no risk of them being "shut-out" of major TV and major bowls, and their basketball has a home with a highly regarded conference. And while the number of independents have narrowed, they still have company in Navy, now Army too, and (sic) Temple. If Notre Dame was absolutely alone in this, greater pressure would exist.
Tigersharks' theory is that Notre Dame will enhance BE fb ties along with making arrangements with Navy and Army in the process. Their scheduling, though, does not seem to reflect this; and to my knowledge, Notre Dame has made no public announcements tilting toward scheduling a healthy slate of BE football.
I tend to think Notre Dame will stay fb independent, and when/if they do join a fb league it will be a complete transition.
I agree, if Notre Dame does join a conference, it will be the B10 or BE. The ACC story appeared to be a smokescreen, although the ACC apparently did try for ND while expanding. The PAC 10 is too far away for "all sports".


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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:27 am 
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ND likes things thev way they are.The have given their STRONG support to the BE in BCS meetings to keep the BE as part of the BCS.A few things on scheduling of ND1.Some things will change with the addition of the 12th football game 2.ND is VERY angry at BC,do not be suprised if a BE team replaces BC(WVU or Syracuse).The BE is like the Articles of Confederation not the Constitution.Its makeup centers special deals with the basis of league in making MONEY.What ever some national sports writer may say the GLUE profit will hold it together.


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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:39 am 
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Quote:
ND likes things thev way they are.The have given their STRONG support to the BE in BCS meetings to keep the BE as part of the BCS.A few things on scheduling of ND1.Some things will change with the addition of the 12th football game 2.ND is VERY angry at BC,do not be suprised if a BE team replaces BC(WVU or Syracuse).The BE is like the Articles of Confederation not the Constitution.Its makeup centers special deals with the basis of league in making MONEY.What ever some national sports writer may say the GLUE profit will hold it together.

Yes, Tigershark, ND does like things the way that they are. However, what ND must remember that things could always change and that ND may be completely powerless to stop these changes from happening. ND's current BCS membership as an independent is not always going to be a given. Agreed that the BE is like the Articles of Confederation. But how long did that last in America? ;D


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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:42 am 
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ND has given no indication of scheduling more than a few NBE teams in the future. The only pronouncement has been repeated here:

1. They will schedule BC, Navy, Pitt, Michigan, Mich St, Purdue, USC and Stanford on a home-and-home basis.

2. In order to fill out the slate, they will seek teams willing to play 2 games at ND per game at their sites.

If NBE schools are willing to bend over to meet the second stipulation, then maybe some will be scheduled by ND. Otherwise, no.


Last edited by westwolf on Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 12:19 pm 
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PantherSC97 hit the nail on the head. Notre Dame conference decisions will come down to the BE maintianing its BCS bid. With Louisville showing a major spark at Miami last week, the school will provide WVU a good BCS football rival until the other BE football schools catch up. The BE automatic BCS bid is not likely to go away.

So, PanterSC97 and I agree the BE football schools will have not reason to remain together after 5 years as my prediction has the BE maintianing BCS bid.

This will leave Notre Dame sitting on the fence.

Bullet, has a good point. Why would the basketball schools want to keep Notre Dame around as competation for the other varsity sports if a split occured.

A very interesting issue is brewing presently in the Big 10 with a potentail tie between Michigan and Wisconsin. If both tie and do not play this year, will there be more pressure for the Big 10 to expand. The same situation occured a few years back with Iowa and Ohio State. The problem this year the Big10 is not strong enough to get two BCS bids. Factor in Utah and some other non bCS bids and there could be some unhappy fans at either Michigan or Wisconsin if one gets left out of the BCS. Assumming both schools win out the rest of the season.

If the Big 10 went shopping for another team and looked at a BE team, this alone should convince the BE football schools that an all sports conference is the only way to go for survival.

Notre Dame would most likely go the money route and join the Big 10.

The 8 BE football schools would probably stop at a 9th all sports member for now. Taking some tips from the ACC, expanding to 9 to allow rivals and exposure to build and someday on to 12.

For now, there is no other non eastern football school performing well enough to get the nod for BE membership in football.

If the BE football schools looked at a 9th all sports team today, basketball would probably have the most influence on a decision. Memphis would get the invitiation. In five years who knows as Central Fla, Marshall, East Carolina, UMass or any Mac team may have improved in football to get the 9th spot.

It is invitable the BE football schools will split in five years and that will force Notre Dame into a all sports conference. Nothing else will force ND hand.

If you are a fan of wanting Notre Dame to join a football conference, then keep your fingers crossed the BE maintains its BCS automatic bic.





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