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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 12:38 pm 
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ND is VERY angry at BC,do not be suprised if a BE team replaces BC(WVU or Syracuse)


PLEASE elaborate, I beg you. I don't recall any ND official expressing anything more than a dissappointment of how BC moved on, with a caveat of understanding that each school must do what it thinks best. The last part coming as a means of covering their own arse while debating their own fate. "We hate you so we're scheduling WVU!" Uh, if they truly want revenge in that sense ND will schedule a long-standing series with UMass, not WVU or Pitt.

The rapport between BC and Notre Dame had little to do with their BE affiliations and everything to do with BC being a private, Catholic school in a fertile market-place for ND to draw support and recruits. Last I checked, those conditions haven't changed. ND may indeed drop BC for a while or forever, but I've yet to see or hear anything to suggest it came about as a means of penance for their departure from the conference.


- Someone also mentioned flexibility of schedule earlier as a reason the BE would be more attractive than the Big 10. Is this because the BE would play fewer conference games? Otherwise, both would be playing 8 conference games, the number everyone is reaching for for financial and scheduling equity purposes.

- ND would be only the third private member of the Big 10, counting U of Chicago, but it's not as if the other schools are devoid of academic credentials or shared interest. The difference between Vandy and Miss St. will always be wider than anything between ND and (insert Big 10 school here). Plus the Big 10 is often the leader in matters of academic requirements of it's athletes, something to ensure ND would remain in equal footing competitively.

- One thing I feel overlooked here is the reasoning behind some of ND's actions. Aside from tradition, their indie status brings with it three benefits:
1: Scheduling flexibility. Play more home games, play big TV games, play in communities you want to be seen. When it comes to conference affiliation this is essentially a wash between the BE and Big 10 since both have common ND opponents.
2: Money. It's been argued on this board that Big 10 membership might provide equal revenue due to the annual conference shares. Remember, everyone in the Big 10 gets $$ from bowl tie ins, the best bowl tie ins. Throw in a conference championship and I could see ND making more $$ as a Big 10 member, unless the BE allows ND special conditions. Don't know for sure, but I could see it happening.
3: TV time. Gone are the days when ND was the only school shown on free-TV. FSU's game against Duke may not make national TV, but I'm of the mind recruits barely notice the 2-3 more TV games ND has over other big names. Throw in future webcasting, things like ESPN's gameplan and conference TV networks and it stands to reason that fans will continue to have more and more choices over who they'll watch, and that ND stands only to lose ground in that arena.

Does the average fan really know to tune into NBC for college football? I forget about them, typically, because there's no cross promotion from other football coverage and I'm rarely watching another NBC product before or after a scheduled ND telecast. In fact, I've been to sports bars littered with TVs that have skipped over the ND game simply because it meant changing the channels from a network that otherwise has 2-4 games that day.



It just seems to me that ND is slowly digging for themselves a hole, one with a fervent fan base but one that is also losing market share. They can always remain competitive and enjoy the benefits mentioned above while staying an independent. But I also beleive the reasons for avoiding full conference membership somewhere are becoming less and less valid, and will someday be completely invalid. Conference affiliation at least provides a sense of family, one in which fans are constantly checking up on conference rivals, standings and traditional road trips. Things which I'm sure ND enjoys in sports other than football right now. All the more reason for them to consider the possibility that they're mistaking hubris for pride.


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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:18 pm 
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<<If the BE football schools looked at a 9th all sports team today, basketball would probably have the most influence on a decision. Memphis would get the invitiation. In five years who knows as Central Fla, Marshall, East Carolina, UMass or any Mac team may have improved in football to get the 9th spot.>>

I agree. There are no powers in fb, so they would get someone acceptable (i.e. not Temple) in fb and one who adds in bb. I also agree 9 or 10 first makes sense. 10 works best for sports other than fb. They can wait before going to 12.

<<A very interesting issue is brewing presently in the Big 10 with a potentail tie between Michigan and Wisconsin. If both tie and do not play this year, will there be more pressure for the Big 10 to expand. The same situation occured a few years back with Iowa and Ohio State. >>

The same thing happened back in 94? and 95? with Northwestern and Ohio St. They didn't meet and it looked like both would go 8-0 before Ohio St. got beaten by Michigan. The next year, both tied for first at 7-1 and did not meet. 11 works very badly in football. Its not too great in basketball either.

<< Someone also mentioned flexibility of schedule earlier as a reason the BE would be more attractive than the Big 10. Is this because the BE would play fewer conference games? Otherwise, both would be playing 8 conference games, the number everyone is reaching for for financial and scheduling equity purposes.>>

Flexibility in everything-
distribution of revenues
scheduling dates (some conferences schedule only conference games after a certain date)
number of games

I suspect if ND joined the BE, they would go to 12 with divisions. They could set up an 8 game schedule for everyone but ND to facilitate getting 4 home games, but only the 5 division games would count toward the division championship. ND would play 6 conference games so 1 team from the other division would get them each year. So 9 teams would play 8 games, 2 from the opposite division would play 7 and ND would play 6. The league could be set up:
Notre Dame division
ND
Syracuse
UConn
Rutgers
Army?
Navy?
non-ND division
Pitt
WVU
Louisville
Cincinnati
USF
Temple/ECU/Memphis?




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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:41 pm 
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Bullet, I am not sure the NCAA would permit this arrangement with Notre Dame only playing a partial schedule.

If a conference is required to have 8 members to qualify as a division 1A conference, isn't that implying that every team must play a minimum of 7 conference games? If not, why is there a rule on 8 members?

Maybe someone needs to review the NCAA rules on compliance for miniumum number of conference games that must be played after the rule changes to 8 member member requirement. The standard for 12 members conferences is 8 games. Is this an NCAA rule?

The type of Notre Dame alignment just seems too far fetched to become a reality and Notre Dame could join the Big 10 with more stability. Your above scenerio would require a split as taking on one more all sports member in Memphis/ECU/UCF would probably not be permitted by the bb schools for balance.

Joining a conference as a partial member is joining a conference and Notre Dame just appears to having many more benefits in the Big 10 if a conference membership were the preference for Notre Dame football.

You guys keep forgetting that Notre Dame's decision to not join the BE football was the final driving factor in Miami moving to the ACC and taking side kick Va Tech and BC as well. I would stake any bet that Notre Dame joining the BE for football would have squashed the ACC expansion plans in its tracks.

I just dont see Notre Dame joining the BE football members and will jump to the Big 10 if and when the football schools decide to split.

If the BE mantains the BCS bid and I think they will, splitting into a 9 or 10 team all sports league is by far a more likely option than having Notre Dame football in the mix.

Everyone keeps thinking the Big East needs or wants a football championship game. Other than TV revenue there is no benefit at the moment for the Big East to reach 12 teams.

The conference needs to get to a 9 or 10 all sports league before there is every a chance of getting to 12 teams required to stage a championship game.

A lot of dominos have to fall before this happens.

If a split occurs will most likely be 2010.

BE would probably take on one or two all sports members for 10.

This arrangement if happens would probably remain in tack for 5 to 10 years to allow rivals, etc, to build and stabilize.

By then we should be looking at a playoff replacing the current BCS.

Would the BE need or want to be at 12 members by 2015?







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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:37 pm 
Regarding Boston College, it could be the other way around pertaining to having games scheduled with Notre Dame. If Boston College was preoccupied with keeping a part BE schedule plus Notre Dame, they sure did not show it, noting how quickly they moved to accept ACC membership.
Basically, joining the ACC meant alternative scheduling in most of their sports. So what if BE schools choose not to play BC OOC, the ACC will be taking care of BC (speaking solely of scheduling worthy games). Whether BC eventually regrets the move and ultimately prefers more closer/lesser competition, remains to be seen. Once BC clears up/pays its exit fees to the BE and finishes out this year's BE slate, and any remnants of the lawsuits have been put to rest, there are no more punishment avenues for the BE toward BC. Refusing to schedule them or vice versa may have minimal impact in the total scope of things, and someone will eventually let go of a grudge as personnel change. Simply put, even if they want to, for BC to schedule much in terms of BE teams will usually be difficult in the future.


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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:37 pm 
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Notre Dame obviously does not consider BC one of its long time rivals since there is no mention of BC on long term schedules. Dont think it has anything to do with BC moving to the ACC. Notre Dame was playing BC due to helping with higher rankings in the Big East bowl alignment. Since BC is gone from the Big East, why continue to play the game.

There are some rumblings in the Big 10 on possible expansion. Michigan has a lot of clout.

What happens if the Big 10 forces Notre Dame to join with scare tatics. If the Big 10 approaches a Big East football school, this would most likely cause the unstablity of the BE to split if another school defeats.

Notre Dame would then be stuck in basketball conference.

Big time conferences are just not going to expand past 12 even if Notre Dame was available. Stable conferences do not have to take a unwieldily approach with hybrid or more than 12 members.

My bet would be Notre Dame would have no choice and would join the Big 10.

This would lead into an interesting scenerio. The Big East could split or add a replacement team for Notre Dame. Basketball would not be an issue with the other 15 schools.

Marshall would be a good fit to get back to 16. Everyone keeps taking about WVU not wanting the school in the Big East, however, it just a matter of time before the those schools state legislature forces the game or better yet economics force the game.

The school would bring the conference to 9 football members and would be close by games for WVU, Pitt, Louisville, and Cincinnati. Should be a major football attendance benefit for the new Big East. The school is part of the footprint.

It would have bigger impact than taking Memphis as Marshall is a football school and having BCS membership would provide many new options for the Big East.

Notre Dame please join the Big 10 and do the Big East a big big favor for a change.



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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:30 pm 
Notre Dame may have been important to BC for prior scheduling. BC will have a slate of decent games in their division (Maryland, Clemson, FSU, Wake, NC State), plus three in the other ACC division. They are not sheding tears having Notre Dame off their slate, only regret they no longer have the opportunity to beat them as the best Catholic school. Finding three, or four, OOC teams to schedule for BC's fb schedule will not be difficult, this includes that they may not be playing any new BE teams or Notre Dame.
Whatever Notre Dame's motive for playing BC in the past, Notre Dame's desire to promote BE fb was not it.


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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:22 am 
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Maybe Notre Dame needs to replace BC with a team it is able to compete. This was the forth lose in row to BE.

When is America and NBC going to realize that Notre Dame is just another mediocre team with a storied past.

Notre Dame should join the Big 10 and would be able to beat one eastern team in Penn State.

The Notre Dame loss this week cost any chances of BCS bowl and most likely any chance at the Gator Bowl.

WVU, Pitt, and BC should get one of those two Big East bowls and the Insight bowl as well.

It would be shame if Notre Dame took the Tire bowl from UConn.

So you see DogsNC@cks, Notre Dame and BC rival game did impact the BE just like a conference game.

Regardless if Notre Dame agreed or not, BC has cost the school any chance of playing in a New Years day bowl.






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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:27 pm 
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ND will replace BC with WVU or Syracuse
ND will play Army for its 12th game
Thus ND will play Army,Navy,Pitt and either or both Syracuse or WVU.Then Army and Navy will become associate members of BE football playing each other and ND plus 4 of 8 BE football members.


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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 1:29 pm 
Its either Notre Dame is going to play the other 8 BE fb schools or not. They can modify 5 or 6 games on their slate and join BE football.
If Notre Dame wants to schedule as if they are competing for the Commanders in Chief Trophy, so be it. That is not BE fb.
Why is it so important for ND to schedule service academies in this day and time anyway? Navy, Army, and Air Force have profound recruiting restraints and regulations Notre Dame has never had to face.
Notre Dame has special criteria for BCS because major conferences have allowed and enabled this. Don't say they had to, beacuse major conferences have been able to exclude a mass of others. Notre Dame's power in getting enabled resides with their tradition and TV and bowl appeal.
It is time major conferences play hardball with ND antics, and ND's priviledges come with a price.
How much harm has wishful thinking about acquiring ND impacted BE fb?
Don't assume the Big10 is STILL so willing to take ND! The votes may still be there if the issue is pushed again; but as Notre Dame's special appeal gets compromised as each year goes by, a less than 100% enthusiasm by the Big10 may exist. The Big10 will not get burned twice on this.
Practically, joining the BE in fb would be the option for ND. The benefits would be mutual. Not happening!


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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 8:13 pm 
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Quote:
Notre Dame obviously does not consider BC one of its long time rivals since there is no mention of BC on long term schedules.


Actually, after a 2 year hiatus, BC rejoins the ND schedules for 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010.

In contrast, ND shows no ( as in zero) NBE opponents for 2006, 2007 and 2009. Syracuse will be played in 2008 and Pitt in 2010.

That's it.


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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 10:00 pm 
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All old schedules made before bc did its thing with the acc.And there is no 12th game on the schedule.


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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 8:21 am 
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Quote:
ND will replace BC with WVU or Syracuse
ND will play Army for its 12th game
Thus ND will play Army,Navy,Pitt and either or both Syracuse or WVU.Then Army and Navy will become associate members of BE football playing each other and ND plus 4 of 8 BE football members.

Navy might go for that associate membership thing, but Army has learned its lesson about joining conferences. It just doen't work for them. Period. Plus, how can ND obtain associate membership in the BE right now when they ALREADY HAVE associate membership in the BE??? It's like a Wal-Mart employee putting in an application to work at Wal-Mart. Makes a lot of sense, eh??


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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:45 pm 
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Quote:

Navy might go for that associate membership thing, but Army has learned its lesson about joining conferences. It just doen't work for them. Period.


DnD - Perhaps now Navy is on an upcycle and Army was on a downcycle. Who knows? IMO, the only way it will work is if the 12 game schedule gets passed AND it looks to make the BE more money in TV AND get more bowl slots. As a BE fan, I'm not that happy about it, but then again, I don't make the decisions.


Quote:

Plus, how can ND obtain associate membership in the BE right now when they ALREADY HAVE associate membership in the BE??? It's like a Wal-Mart employee putting in an application to work at Wal-Mart. Makes a lot of sense, eh??


I guess I see the analogy as you already work at walmart, but you want to spend some of your time in another department (say clothing) and not just all your time in say electronics. You still need to see clothing manager to make sure it's ok with him/her. The big difference is that you want to be paid for 40 hours of work while you only work 20 hours seeing that ND only wants to play 4 games and still be considered to be part of the BE bowl package.

As I said, this should get real interesting in 2005 to see what the Gator bowl does with the BE. If the Gator leaves the BE for say the Big12, then ND affiliation with the BE doesn't get them any good bowl slots (ie more than 1.5 million payday).


Last edited by panthersc97 on Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 5:14 pm 
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As I said, this should get real interesting in 2005 to see what the Gator bowl does with the BE. If the Gator leaves the BE for say the Big12, then ND affiliation with the BE doesn't get them any good bowl slots (ie more than 1.5 million payday).


The ND deals are with the individual bowls, not the BE. The BE just signed off agreeing to the the ND stipulation in each bowl agreement they have.

Gator Bowl officials said last year that ND "will always be a part of our bowl agreements" when asked about the possibility of switching from BE to another conference.

The Pac Ten, with their overall lack of bowls would accept a Gator Bowl with an ND stipulation in a heartbeat.


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 Post subject: ND future scheduling
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 6:41 pm 
It is not that they adore Notre Dame so in Jacksonville, it is they want to fill the Gator Bowl stadium. The organizers of the Gator Bowl loved it when South Carolina or Clemson played there----they bring tons of fans and fill the hotel rooms.
There were years when the Gator Bowl did not reach their attendance goals. They feel, obviously, teams from the ACC and/or BE will generally provide a respectable group of fans. They probably would have contracted for an SEC team, if they could have one assured to be ranked high enough year. Note they are in competition with the Peach Bowl, Citrus Bowl, etc. for attractive teams. A Notre Dame team that does not make it to the BCS, but just has three or four loses, will still garner much attention and attract fans.


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