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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:58 pm 
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How about this:

Big North

Eastern Division
Georgetown
Massachusetts
Providence
Seton Hall
St. John's
Villanova

Western Division
Dayton
DePaul
Detroit
Marquette
Saint Louis
Xavier

I think it would work fine. 12 team division would work for this league, since it basically would be two conferences in one. Needed for the geography involved. Would need to be done after DePaul and Marquette were in the BE for a while, so they could still get an automatic bid sort of like the MWC. ESPN would love it, just look at the tv markets - New York, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, Detroit, Washington, St. Louis, Cincinnati, Milwaukee, etc.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:16 pm 
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I'd keep it Catholic and bring in Holy Cross (Boston), Loyola (Baltimore), Fairfield (CT) or Duqesne (Pittsburg) instead of UMass.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:36 am 
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I thought about the all-Catholic league out east but UMass is still more appealing bc it is probally the best "name" bb school in the east that is not in the Big East. I'm sure Villanova and the like want another big name school in thier conference.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:35 am 
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I'd keep it Catholic and bring in Holy Cross (Boston), Loyola (Baltimore), Fairfield (CT) or Duqesne (Pittsburg) instead of UMass.


No way Loyola MD can compete with the big boys.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:11 pm 
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College sports, especially when it comes to these schools, is still about money. Religious affiliation carries less weight when so many millions of dollars are in play.

I still see no reason why the remaining 8 big east schools would have to even add any others. It just means more ways to split the money.

But if expansion was an issue, I think 10 would make more sense...trying to find stronger markets to increase the TV contracts.

Georgetown
Providence
Seton Hall
St. John's
Villanova
DePaul
Notre Dame
Marquette

If markets came into play, I'd think the league owudl want to go with balancing out footprint:

Xavier (Cincinnati market)
St. Louis

If they want access to the Boston market, UMass would be a good fit. BC hardly has a grasp ofit for basketball and during the 90's UMass dominated the entire region...north of Hartford.


So if 12 became a reality, I'd go with...

East:
UMass
Providence
St. John's
Seton Hall
Villanova
Georgetown


West:
Xavier
Dayton
DePaul
Notre Dame
Marquette
St. Louis

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 4:43 pm 
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i agree with that


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:05 pm 
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I was making the conference assuming Notre Dame joined the other BE schools for FB or the move they should make to the Big Ten. 8 makes more sense if Notre Dame stays if they leave 12 or 10 to balance the geographically gap between the schools.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 12:05 am 
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Detroit adds a very big market and may in the long run be a plus over ND.

UMass is clearly the strongest available program. But keeping like schools together could be important for long-term unity. With the 5 long-time BE schools, Marquette, DePaul, Xavier, Dayton, they could easily afford a lower profile school.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:36 pm 
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I like seeing the thoughtful discussion here, because I think the viability of this idea goes a long way to defining the fate of the current BE. The more viable this type of a conference is, the more likely the split becomes, IMO, because these schools would enjoy it if they could a) maintain the level of money and exposure they'd get under the 16 team model while also b) affirming a more unified, less -politically hostile environment for directing their own affiars.

So, some questions I think need to be addressed first to reach something of resolution.

1) Whither ND? Most think they'd opt for partnership with the new Big East football schools (if allowed) because of better facilities and likely more prestige and exposure, if not money. Others think that would either not be allowed or that staying with the Catholic schools would allow the Irish an end to all speculation and influence from the other football conferences. I'm unaware of the facilities matter (track, soccer fields, lockers, etc) with the non-1-A members but I think this "Big North" (CYO, whatever) could earn ALMOST as much money for basketball as the 1-A group would IF ND was involved and, of course, depending on other new members. Thoughts, here?

2) Whither UMass? Is UMass a more marketable entity than, say, Holy Cross? Clearly, yes. Yet I think the stability and shared sense of institutional size and mission would go a long way to shaping this new conference. UMass may not be 1-A bound any time soon, but what about 2015? The moment they appear close to what UConn was before jumping up, they become a target for the expansion-candidate-poor/market-hungry BE. I think the issue here is not one of "Is UMass a candidate for the Big North, but whether or not the Big North feels that UMass would be a permanent fit or the step-child to another Big East membership fiasco. I also think there's a reason that the BE reached to take in Marquette and DePaul versus UMass and, say, Charlotte, to begin with.

3) What is the cost advantage to a larger conference that DOES NOT play 1-A football? Is there some financial advantage in travel and/or scheduling for bball, soccer and more that says a 12 team model is better than 10 or 8? Some of this would be dependent on the value of the new markets, I know.

4) Given thatb last part of #3, might Dayton be left out? Like Many, I see Xavier as the first pick of this expansion draft, but considering the other markets out there wonder if the attractiveness of the Dayton program, which is so close to Cincinnatti, begins to fade. In addition to the schools mentioned above, I think Sienna warrants consideration, too.

5) Whither St. Louis? Might this school/market be simply too far given the number of candidates between South Bend and Boston? (Perhaps I should add the caveat of "Is there another Catholic candidate I'm unaware of between Cincy and St. Louis that could fill this gap?")

6) What do above candidates Dayton, Georgetown, Villanova, Holy Cross and Duquense have in common? Answer: 1-AA football. Does the thought of a possible Big North football conference become valuable, a distraction or a non-factor?


Last edited by gunnerfan on Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:16 pm 
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Quote:
I like seeing the thoughtful discussion here, because I think the viability of this idea goes a long way to defining the fate of the current BE. The more viable this type of a conference is, the more likely the split becomes, IMO, because these schools would enjoy it if they could a) maintain the level of money and exposure they'd get under the 16 team model while also b) affirming a more unified, less -politically hostile environment for directing their own affiars.

So, some questions I think need to be addressed first to reach something of resolution.

1) Whither ND? Most think they'd opt for partnership with the new Big East football schools (if allowed) because of better facilities and likely more prestige and exposure, if not money. Others think that would either not be allowed or that staying with the Catholic schools would allow the Irish an end to all speculation and influence from the other football conferences. I'm unaware of the facilities matter (track, soccer fields, lockers, etc) with the non-1-A members but I think this "Big North" (CYO, whatever) could earn ALMOST as much money for basketball as the 1-A group would IF ND was involved and, of course, depending on other new members. Thoughts, here?

2) Whither UMass? Is UMass a more marketable entity than, say, Holy Cross? Clearly, yes. Yet I think the stability and shared sense of institutional size and mission would go a long way to shaping this new conference. UMass may not be 1-A bound any time soon, but what about 2015? The moment they appear close to what UConn was before jumping up, they become a target for the expansion-candidate-poor/market-hungry BE. I think the issue here is not one of "Is UMass a candidate for the Big North, but whether or not the Big North feels that UMass would be a permanent fit or the step-child to another Big East membership fiasco. I also think there's a reason that the BE reached to take in Marquette and DePaul versus UMass and, say, Charlotte, to begin with.

3) What is the cost advantage to a larger conference that DOES NOT play 1-A football? Is there some financial advantage in travel and/or scheduling for bball, soccer and more that says a 12 team model is better than 10 or 8? Some of this would be dependent on the value of the new markets, I know.

4) Given thatb last part of #3, might Dayton be left out? Like Many, I see Xavier as the first pick of this expansion draft, but considering the other markets out there wonder if the attractiveness of the Dayton program, which is so close to Cincinnatti, begins to fade. In addition to the schools mentioned above, I think Sienna warrants consideration, too.

5) Whither St. Louis? Might this school/market be simply too far given the number of candidates between South Bend and Boston? (Perhaps I should add the caveat of "Is there another Catholic candidate I'm unaware of between Cincy and St. Louis that could fill this gap?")

6) What do above candidates Dayton, Georgetown, Villanova, Holy Cross and Duquense have in common? Answer: 1-AA football. Does the thought of a possible Big North football conference become valuable, a distraction or a non-factor?



A few things here...

I tend to think that after looking at the new schools the BE will add for 2005, that Notre Dame will likely choose the non-football members if a split occurred.

Notre Dame justs has too little in common with the likes of Cincy, South Florida, Louisville, Pitt, Rutgers, UConn, WVU and Syracuse as a whole. The remaining non-fotball schools seem like a better fit and would allow the school to compete for alumni in markets like Chicago, Milwaukee, NY, DC and Philadelphia.


As for I-AA football...
Within the current Big East, only Villanova cometes with a high number of scholorships within I-AA. Georgetown is in the Patriot. With no football programs at Depaul, Marquette, Seton Hall, St. Johns (dropped football) or Providence, it's unlikely that they would want anytihng to do with football.

It is football of course that has led to so much of the tension within the Big East (the Big East did not unanimously want Rutgers, WVU and later VA Tech to join for all-sports).

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:02 pm 
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If ND wanted the non-football schools they would have already gone that way.ND wants this special arrangements it has currently.Will they give a little more in terms of a few more football games to keep it that way,the answer is certainly.The motives here are money and power.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:04 am 
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A historical footnote-Holy Cross was invited to join the BE when it was formed.

As for Xavier vs. Dayton, Dayton wins hands down. Xavier's success is fairly recent while Dayton has been successful since at least the 60s. And Dayton draws a lot better. Xavier is #2 (or worse) in Cincinnati.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:07 am 
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I think the key to size in non-fb conferences is that many of these schools have a limited number of sports. So a 10 team conference is far superior to an 8 team conference. 12 may be superior, especially for a conference like the "Big North" which should be a multi-bid bb conference. Mid-majors and below are often 1 bid conferences and going to 12 simply makes it more difficult to get to the big dance. The travel and stability of a larger conference would then come into play as to whether 12 makes more sense than 10.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:40 pm 
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A historical footnote-Holy Cross was invited to join the BE when it was formed.


That's not how the BE members seem to tell it:

http://www.suathletics.com/sports/gen/2001/history.asp

"Boston College was invited over Holy Cross, UMass and Boston University."


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 7:06 pm 
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I think the key to size in non-fb conferences is that many of these schools have a limited number of sports. So a 10 team conference is far superior to an 8 team conference. 12 may be superior, especially for a conference like the "Big North" which should be a multi-bid bb conference. Mid-majors and below are often 1 bid conferences and going to 12 simply makes it more difficult to get to the big dance. The travel and stability of a larger conference would then come into play as to whether 12 makes more sense than 10.


Actually 12 in a mid-major conference is starting to grow on me the more I think about it. While bids are always going to be at 1, unless something amazing happens, that is not really the point. With a 12 team conference, you basically have a conference within a conference. This allows for more rivarlies to develop geographically. Which allows, should better attendance for games. For example lets use the Mid-Con, say they add Northern Colorado, North Dakota St, South Dakota St. They split into 2 divisions - UMKC, Oral Roberts, Southern Utah, Northern Colorado, North Dakota St, South Dakota St.. Other Division - Cenetary, IUPUI, Chicago St, Western Illinois, Valpo, Oakland. This allows one trip to Utah or Detroit for Southern Utah every two years, which saves $$$. Plus it develops rivarlies. I know I can't explain it very well, but it makes sense to me.


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