NCAA Conference Realignment & Expansion Message Boards
NCAA Map

Discussions by Conference:
  It is currently Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:19 pm

Help support CollegeSportsInfo.com by shopping

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:53 am 
Offline
All-Conference
All-Conference
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am
Posts: 693
Location: Louisville, KY
I think if the Big East were to split, the seven remaining schools could really blow up Division I by forming a 16-team league by raiding the Atlantic Sun, Atlantic Ten, Sun Belt, and CAA.

North Division: Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, Villanova
Atlantic Division: Old Dominion, VCU, Georgetown, UNC Charlotte
South Division: South Alabama, New Orleans, Georgia State, ETSU
Central Division: St. Louis, Dayton, DePaul, Marquette

TV Markets (School), % of US
1. New York (St. John's & Seton Hall), 6.712
3. DePaul (Chicago)m 3.118
4. Philadelphia (Villanova), 2.664
8. Washington (Georgetown), 2.045
9. Atlanta (Georgia State), 1.879
21. St. Louis (St. Louis), 1.110
28. Charlotte (UNC Charlotte), 0.917
32. Milwaukee (Marquette), 0.809
41. Norfolk (Old Dominion), 0.646
43. New Orleans (New Orleans), 0.617
49. Providence-New Bedford (Providence), 0.589
56. Dayton (Dayton), 0.491
61. Richmond-Petersburg (Virginia Commonwealth), 0.465
63. Mobile-Pensacola-Ft. Walton (South Alabama), 0.449
89. TN/VA Tri-Cities (East Tennessee State), 0.301

That's 22.812% of the TV households in the United States!

Pulled up the lastest RPI numbers I could find (1/10/05, collegerpi.com):
DePaul 0.6009
Marquette 0.5982
Villanova 0.5966
Providence 0.5818
Georgetown 0.5632
Old Dominion 0.5567
VCU 0.5370
UNC Charlotte 0.5269
Seton Hall 0.5025
St. John's 0.5024
Dayton 0.4952
Georgia State 0.4777
New Orleans 0.4430
St. Louis 0.4361
South Alabama 0.4285
ETSU 0.3741

The divisions wouldn't be competitively balanced right now, but USA, Georgia State, but it hadn't been that long since USA won the Sun Belt, and Georgia State has had some success in recent years.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 8:39 am 
Offline
All-Star
All-Star

Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 1:09 pm
Posts: 1540

Quote:


That's not how the BE members seem to tell it:

http://www.suathletics.com/sports/gen/2001/history.asp

"Boston College was invited over Holy Cross, UMass and Boston University."


EarthX, the winners write history. This isn't the first time that the truth became victim to the re-writing of history.

It was widely reported at the time The Big East was formed that Holy Cross was the preferred over Boston College & that Rutgers was preferred over Seton Hall.

There were several reasons for the preference of Holy Cross over BC. The Cross was a very successful program - "big time college basketball" in the late '70s - especially in the minds of Dave Gavitt & the other key ADs looking to form the new league. These men had grown up with NCAA & NIT championships at Holy Cross as well as a string of All Americans from Bob Cousy to Ronnie Perry. BC was known as a football school & Holy Cross as a basketball school, although both had good records/histories in the other sport as well. Just as important was the fact that like UConn & Providence, Holy Cross had a large, new Civic Center for home games. They commanded all the media & attention in Worcester, the second largest city in Massachusetts - a city larger than Providence or Hartford. BC, on the other hand, was/is in a pro sports town at a time when the Celtics were in their hay-day. They had only an on-campus facility in a suburban location, removed from the bustling downtown, Madison Square Garden-style location the big East was looking for.

The statement you posted from the Syracuse website is technically correct. BC was selected over the other possibles, but in the case of Holy Cross, it was only because The Cross rejected preliminary feelers first, not the other way around. Jake Crouthamel & other Big East officials would like to project the image that schools were begging to join them & that they could afford to pick & choose.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:26 pm 
Online
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am
Posts: 3811

Quote:
I think if the Big East were to split, the seven remaining schools could really blow up Division I by forming a 16-team league by raiding the Atlantic Sun, Atlantic Ten, Sun Belt, and CAA.

North Division: Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, Villanova
Atlantic Division: Old Dominion, VCU, Georgetown, UNC Charlotte
South Division: South Alabama, New Orleans, Georgia State, ETSU
Central Division: St. Louis, Dayton, DePaul, Marquette

TV Markets (School), % of US
1. New York (St. John's & Seton Hall), 6.712
3. DePaul (Chicago)m 3.118
4. Philadelphia (Villanova), 2.664
8. Washington (Georgetown), 2.045
9. Atlanta (Georgia State), 1.879
21. St. Louis (St. Louis), 1.110
28. Charlotte (UNC Charlotte), 0.917
32. Milwaukee (Marquette), 0.809
41. Norfolk (Old Dominion), 0.646
43. New Orleans (New Orleans), 0.617
49. Providence-New Bedford (Providence), 0.589
56. Dayton (Dayton), 0.491
61. Richmond-Petersburg (Virginia Commonwealth), 0.465
63. Mobile-Pensacola-Ft. Walton (South Alabama), 0.449
89. TN/VA Tri-Cities (East Tennessee State), 0.301

That's 22.812% of the TV households in the United States!

Pulled up the lastest RPI numbers I could find (1/10/05, collegerpi.com):
DePaul 0.6009
Marquette 0.5982
Villanova 0.5966
Providence 0.5818
Georgetown 0.5632
Old Dominion 0.5567
VCU 0.5370
UNC Charlotte 0.5269
Seton Hall 0.5025
St. John's 0.5024
Dayton 0.4952
Georgia State 0.4777
New Orleans 0.4430
St. Louis 0.4361
South Alabama 0.4285
ETSU 0.3741

The divisions wouldn't be competitively balanced right now, but USA, Georgia State, but it hadn't been that long since USA won the Sun Belt, and Georgia State has had some success in recent years.



In theory, this might make sense. But you have to factor the AMMOUNT of exposure a program gets in it's market.

For example, when looking at markets....

Drexel is in Philladelphia, but is 6th when it comes to ammount of coverage.

Northeastern is in Boston but gets little exposure.



With this important factor in mind, it would rule out any legitimate consideration for:


9. Atlanta (Georgia State), 1.879
43. New Orleans (New Orleans), 0.617
61. Richmond-Petersburg (Virginia Commonwealth), 0.465
63. Mobile-Pensacola-Ft. Walton (South Alabama), 0.449
89. TN/VA Tri-Cities (East Tennessee State), 0.301

Most likely to be excluded as well:
41. Norfolk (Old Dominion), 0.646

As for the Richmond market, while VCU would not be considered, Richmond was very much on the Big East radar. Georgetown was in favor of Richmond if the football members were to leave the conference.

_________________
Image

Image@ncaasports Image csi.com/facebook

Image
Like the new CSI Userbar? Feel free to use it here and any other forums.
You can save and host it yourself or link from here.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:30 pm 
Online
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am
Posts: 3811

Quote:


EarthX, the winners write history. This isn't the first time that the truth became victim to the re-writing of history.

It was widely reported at the time The Big East was formed that Holy Cross was the preferred over Boston College & that Rutgers was preferred over Seton Hall.

There were several reasons for the preference of Holy Cross over BC. The Cross was a very successful program - "big time college basketball" in the late '70s - especially in the minds of Dave Gavitt & the other key ADs looking to form the new league. These men had grown up with NCAA & NIT championships at Holy Cross as well as a string of All Americans from Bob Cousy to Ronnie Perry. BC was known as a football school & Holy Cross as a basketball school, although both had good records/histories in the other sport as well. Just as important was the fact that like UConn & Providence, Holy Cross had a large, new Civic Center for home games. They commanded all the media & attention in Worcester, the second largest city in Massachusetts - a city larger than Providence or Hartford. BC, on the other hand, was/is in a pro sports town at a time when the Celtics were in their hay-day. They had only an on-campus facility in a suburban location, removed from the bustling downtown, Madison Square Garden-style location the big East was looking for.

The statement you posted from the Syracuse website is technically correct. BC was selected over the other possibles, but in the case of Holy Cross, it was only because The Cross rejected preliminary feelers first, not the other way around. Jake Crouthamel & other Big East officials would like to project the image that schools were begging to join them & that they could afford to pick & choose.



Very true. The A10 could comment that they chose to bring in LaSalle, Fordham, etc over Delaware in the mid-90s, but the fact is UD turned down the A10.

_________________
Image

Image@ncaasports Image csi.com/facebook

Image
Like the new CSI Userbar? Feel free to use it here and any other forums.
You can save and host it yourself or link from here.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:46 pm 
Offline
Sophomore
Sophomore

Joined: Tue May 06, 2003 6:19 pm
Posts: 68
Why would Delaware have turned down the A-10 to remain in the North Atlantic/America East? I have also seen posted that Western Kentucky turned down the A-10, but have found nothing "substantive" to that effect either...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:51 pm 
Online
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am
Posts: 3811

Quote:


EarthX, the winners write history. This isn't the first time that the truth became victim to the re-writing of history.

It was widely reported at the time The Big East was formed that Holy Cross was the preferred over Boston College & that Rutgers was preferred over Seton Hall.

There were several reasons for the preference of Holy Cross over BC. The Cross was a very successful program - "big time college basketball" in the late '70s - especially in the minds of Dave Gavitt & the other key ADs looking to form the new league. These men had grown up with NCAA & NIT championships at Holy Cross as well as a string of All Americans from Bob Cousy to Ronnie Perry. BC was known as a football school & Holy Cross as a basketball school, although both had good records/histories in the other sport as well. Just as important was the fact that like UConn & Providence, Holy Cross had a large, new Civic Center for home games. They commanded all the media & attention in Worcester, the second largest city in Massachusetts - a city larger than Providence or Hartford. BC, on the other hand, was/is in a pro sports town at a time when the Celtics were in their hay-day. They had only an on-campus facility in a suburban location, removed from the bustling downtown, Madison Square Garden-style location the big East was looking for.

The statement you posted from the Syracuse website is technically correct. BC was selected over the other possibles, but in the case of Holy Cross, it was only because The Cross rejected preliminary feelers first, not the other way around. Jake Crouthamel & other Big East officials would like to project the image that schools were begging to join them & that they could afford to pick & choose.



And for those who knew of JoPa's plan in the late 70's and early 80's, it's truely sad to see what could have been when you see who was available.

You figure that since JoPa wanted an ALL-SPORTS league, programs like Temple who have suffered mostly for the lack of rivalries would have had the chance to excel.

Rutgers falls into the same category as Rutgers and WVU were in the A10 for all sports except football until 1994. We'd be going on 25 years of the all-sports conference and rivalries would be strong.



Below are a list of independents from the time of the original plan:


Original Plan:
Boston College, 1978 - 90 (joined Big East 1991)
Syracuse, 1978 - 90 (joined Big East 1991)
Rutgers, 1978 - 90 (joined Big East 1991)
Temple, 1978 - 90 (joined Big East 1991)
Penn State, 1978 - 92 (joined Big Ten 1993)
Pittsburgh, 1978 - 90 (joined Big East 1991)
West Virginia, 1978 - 90 (joined Big East 1991)

Top Candidates:
Virginia Tech, 1978 - 90 (joined Big East 1991)
Georgia Tech, 1978 - 82 (joined ACC 1983)
Florida State, 1978 - 91 (joined ACC 1992)
Miami, 1978 - 90 (joined Big East 1991)



#12 Candidates:
Connecticut, 2000-present
Army, 1978-97 (joined CUSA 1998)
Cincinnati, 1978-95 (joined CUSA 1996)
East Carolina, 1978-96 (joined CUSA 1997)
Louisville, 1978-95 (joined CUSA 1996)
Navy, 1978-present
Notre Dame, 1978-present


Others:
Arkansas State, 1990-92 and 1996-98 (joined Big West, left Big West, re-joined Big West)
UNLV, 1978-83 (joined Big West 1984)
New Mexico State, 1978 - 83 (joined Big West 1984)
Louisiana Tech, 1988-92 and 1996-present (joined Big West 1993, left Big West 1995)
Northern Illinois, 1986-92 and 1996 (left MAC 1985, played in BW 1993-95, rejoined MAC 1997)
Louisiana Lafayette, 1978-92 and 1996-2000 (joined Big West 1993, left BW 1995)
North Texas, 1995 (joined Big West 1996)
Louisiana-Monroe, 1994-2000
Central Florida, 1996-2001
Middle Tennessee State, 1999-2000
South Florida, 2000-present
Alabama-Birmingham, 1996-98 (joined CUSA 1999)
Memphis, 1978-95 (joined CUSA 1996)
Southern Mississippi, 1978-95 (joined CUSA 1996)
Tulane, 1978-95 (joined CUSA 1996)
Air Force, 1978-79 (joined WAC 1980)
Hawaii, 1978 (joined WAC 1979)
Tulsa, 1978-95 (joined WAC 1996)
South Carolina, 1978-91 (joined SEC 1992)
Troy State, 2001
Utah State, 2001



_________________
Image

Image@ncaasports Image csi.com/facebook

Image
Like the new CSI Userbar? Feel free to use it here and any other forums.
You can save and host it yourself or link from here.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:24 am 
Offline
Sophomore
Sophomore

Joined: Tue May 06, 2003 6:19 pm
Posts: 68
Georgia Tech committed to the ACC in April 1978...

After being terminated in 1970, Miami's basketball program was not reinstated until 1984...

New Mexico State was a member of the Missouri Valley Conference until joining the PCAA/Big West...

Southwestern Louisiana was a member of the (I-A) Southland Conference through the 1981 season...

Tulsa was a member of the Missouri Valley Conference through the 1985 season...

Alabama-Birmingham, South Florida, and Connecticut were committed to their respective conferences upon entry to I-A...

Colgate, Holy Cross, Richmond, Villanova, and William & Mary were all I-A independents prior to 1982...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:01 pm 
Online
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am
Posts: 3811

Quote:
Georgia Tech committed to the ACC in April 1978...

After being terminated in 1970, Miami's basketball program was not reinstated until 1984...




Exactly...you take the original 7 for the league and then add VA Tech, Miami down the road and it's a solid 9 team conference.

_________________
Image

Image@ncaasports Image csi.com/facebook

Image
Like the new CSI Userbar? Feel free to use it here and any other forums.
You can save and host it yourself or link from here.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:40 pm 
Offline
All-Star
All-Star

Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2002 5:14 pm
Posts: 2663
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Yea! but that was pre BCS days and Miami and Va Tech were not very desirable to the ACC. Va Tech and Miami both need to be thankful for the BCS, otherwise, both would not have membership in the ACC.

Both schools were awful in basketball at that time and basically is not much better today. Miami is making some progress.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:32 pm 
Offline
Junior
Junior

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 4:21 am
Posts: 114
Virginia Tech’s basketball program was really not that bad in the 70’s and 80’s. I am not saying that the program was a world beater, but it was not abysmal, either. It has always been difficult for Tech’s program to flourish in the heart of ACC country.

Virginia Tech does owe a lot to the Big East, and I think officials from the school have echoed that sentiment many times the past year-and-a-half.

However, it is hard to predict the future. If a nine or ten team all-sports conference were formed in the late 70’s, it is hard to say if Miami and/or Florida State would have become the powers that they did. I would assume that they would have. Perhaps Penn State would not have fallen off the way they have in the past decade. Also, Virginia Tech may have begun its ascension in football a decade early.

Penn State
Syracuse
West Virginia
Temple
Pittsburgh
Boston College
Rutgers
Virginia Tech
Miami
Florida State

That would have been a nice conference. However, I do know that for nothing more than cultural reasons, most Virginia Tech alumni are happy to be in the ACC today. As for Tech’s basketball program, give it five years and they will be reasonably competitive. Perhaps in ten years the program may be able to contend for a league championship. Tech will probably never recruit to Carolina or Duke’s level, but if they have a good coach and get the players to fit a good system, the program will be fine.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:29 am 
Offline
All-Star
All-Star

Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:22 am
Posts: 1030
I brought up this topic before about the BE and expansion in the early days (I dont remember the thread). It would have been interesting to see if PSU could have formed a conference without BC, SU and Pitt in the late 70s and 80s.

Basically, it came down to without BC, SU and Pitt to form a core NE conference that other issues would have prevented the other league to form or remain stable.

Also, one team you forgot to add to the list of 'candidates' would have been South Carolina. SC was the last team added to the SEC and I think the SEC wanted either Miami or FSU instead (?) and I doubt they head back to the ACC if they got shut out. They would have been begging to get into another conference other than the ACC.

One thing to note is that the IF (and that would be a big IF) that proposed conference happened, the ACC would have probably been locked in to their membership prior to FSU being added in 92.

Would the ACC have been considered a BCS conference then without FSU? IF the ACC then wanted to expand, there wouldn't have been any candidates that had the academics the ACC would have wanted along with the market share (Louisville, Cinn??)

Just some musings.....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:49 am 
Offline
All-Star
All-Star

Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 1:09 pm
Posts: 1540

Quote:
I brought up this topic before about the BE and expansion in the early days (I dont remember the thread). It would have been interesting to see if PSU could have formed a conference without BC, SU and Pitt in the late 70s and 80s.

Basically, it came down to without BC, SU and Pitt to form a core NE conference that other issues would have prevented the other league to form or remain stable.

Also, one team you forgot to add to the list of 'candidates' would have been South Carolina. SC was the last team added to the SEC and I think the SEC wanted either Miami or FSU instead (?) and I doubt they head back to the ACC if they got shut out. They would have been begging to get into another conference other than the ACC.

One thing to note is that the IF (and that would be a big IF) that proposed conference happened, the ACC would have probably been locked in to their membership prior to FSU being added in 92.

Would the ACC have been considered a BCS conference then without FSU? IF the ACC then wanted to expand, there wouldn't have been any candidates that had the academics the ACC would have wanted along with the market share (Louisville, Cinn??)

Just some musings.....


Possible Atlantic Eight (circa 1982)

Penn State
UMass
Rutgers
Temple
West Virginia
Virginia Tech
South Carolina
Miami

The first five were all charter members of the Eastern Eight, which morphed into the Atlantic Ten, & as such, were already affiliated. Miami certainly could have re-started its basketball program a couple of years earlier than it did. There was obviously already some interest there, or this group could have come together a few years later after Miami had basketball again. There are other independents that could have been considered as well. perhaps Joe Pa's vision was too limited to his traditional Notheastern rivals. After all, he was a Brooklyn guy, who probably didn't give much consideration to potential expansion south of the Mason-Dixon line.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:30 pm 
Offline
Sophomore
Sophomore

Joined: Tue May 06, 2003 6:19 pm
Posts: 68
The "Eastern 8" became the "Atlantic 10" in 1982 with the arrival of Saint Joseph's and Temple from the East Coast Conference and Penn State's return after a three-year absence (Pittsburgh had left for the BIG EAST). It is also notable that South Carolina was also an independent in basketball for a dozen years before becoming a member of the Metro Conference (1983)...

Possible "Atlantic 8" (c.1982)
Army
East Carolina
Navy
Penn State
Rutgers
Temple
Virginia Tech
West Virginia

Prior to the I-A/I-AA reorganization of 1978, the football program at UMass (Yankee Conference) was classified as D-II. Granted, UMass appeared in the first-ever I-AA Championship Game. I am also not sure that Miami would have been as much of a "sure thing" (in terms of conference realignment) by the 1982-1983 academic year, especially without basketball.

While the Schnellenberger era at Miami had begun in 1979, the program's first national title would not arrive until 1983. 1980 marked the school's first bowl appearance in thirteen years. While the 1981 team was also nationally-ranked, Miami was also on probation/ineligible for bowl competition, something that probably would not have gone unnoticed by JoePa in light of contemporary comments critical of Barry Switzer and Jackie Sherrill.

Although major strides appeared to have been made in a very short time, I'm not sure that Miami would have been ready for a northeastern-based football-oriented conference by 1982 (or vice versa) or that Howard Schnellenberger would have been interested. In retrospect, his comments surrounding the "Metro Football" discussions of 1990 make me wonder how interested he would have been in a conference with a conference whose "core" would have included both Rutgers and Temple. Florida State and South Carolina also had aspirations of becoming "name" programs at that time, and perhaps the "A-8" would not have been conducive to such, especially when the Metro Conference offered an "unencumbered" membership.

Looking at the potential membership for an "Atlantic 8," it's no wonder that an Eastern football/basketball conference absent BC, Pitt, and Syracuse was not founded in the early 1980s...

While East Carolina had some success under Pat Dye in the late 1970s (including an appearance in the Independence Bowl), their connection to the "A-8" would have been a limited history with Virginia Tech and West Virginia. It would also take several years for ECU to "officially" distance itself from Richmond and William & Mary. All three schools (ECU, UR, W&M) departed the Southern Conference at around the same time (1976-1977) to compete as I-A independents (only ECU remained I-A after 1981) and members of the ECAC-South.

While Virginia Tech had recently been rebuffed at possible ACC membership (Georgia Tech), and probably would have appreciated a more stable arrangement with greater potential for exposure, it was also still in its "VMI-VPI" phase.

It is uncertain whether the service academies would have accepted conference membership at that time. While many of the issues then would have been the same as those now (i.e. scheduling flexibility), Navy was experiencing a bit of a revival under George Welsh, and Air Force had recently committed to the WAC (1980).

Basically, the conference would have been established as "Penn State and the seven drawfs." Only West Virginia would have even come remotely close to approaching Penn State at that time for purposes of comparison, and that would have been an obvious stretch. Other potential "rivals" (e.g. Florida State and South Carolina) probably would have been uninterested in a "Northeastern" conference in the shadow of Penn State (granted, FSU's program would become comparable over the course of the 1980s, and undeniably surpass Penn State in the 1990s).


Last edited by yungwun on Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:06 pm 
True, had history fallen a certain way, schools such as Penn State, WVU, FSU, Miami, and South Carolina, maybe even Ga Tech, would have ended up in another eastern coast conference.

I was a little bit surprised when I heard this year's Rose Bowl was the very first fb meeting ever between Michigan and Texas.
I cannot recall Penn State and South Carolina ever playing a fb game against each other. Maybe someone will look it up.


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:21 pm 
I looked it up; So Car. and Penn State played 2 fb games; 1940 in State College and 1941 in Columbia; Penn State won both.


Top
  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: sec03 and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
 

 




Looking for College Sports apparel? Support our partner:








Support Our Partners: Search Engine Marketing - Search Engine Optimization - Search Engine Training - Online Marketing for Restuarants

Subway Map Shirts - Food and Travel

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group