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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:07 pm 
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ND to the B-10 is bad joke.ND wants special deals and the B-10 will not give them.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:14 am 
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Lash, with regard to your proposal for a 12-team BE All-Sports conference, where are you going to go to get 4 more teams that are BCS worthy? Even if we add the Memphis prgram that you've been championing, we still need 3 more. I just don't see it.

Although Syracuse, Pitt, W Virginia, & Louisville are all pretty well established BCS-type programs with histories & traditions to support that (whether they compare with top-flight BCS programs, is another matter), the other half of the current membership is a group of emerging BCS programs that are still getting their "sea legs" at this level. There is every reason to believe that UConn can be successful, but the other 3 remain question marks. At a time when this conference is trying to defend its BCS legitimacy, how could you possibly add 4 more teams without watering down an already shaky reputation & creating a PR nightmare?

Unless your "western division" would include Utah & Boise State . . . ;D


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:20 pm 
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Friarfan, it is becomming apparent the Big East continues to plan for the same type of future with having schools of different interest. The Big East has always lived on the edge with minimum requirements. The Big East could really use a 9th football school and yet the conference expanded with minimum of 3 football schools and two schools that do not play football. Would NIU been a better candidate than Depaul?

Revenue sharing is a big part of conference affiliation. The Big East loses lots of money with paying out of conference fees a do not match any of the other BCS conferences with 8 conference games. Once again minimum requirements to support football. No one will even address the Notre Dame issue for football.

Back to your question on BCS. What determines BCS worthiness? Duke, Wake, Bayor, Indiana, Vanderbilt, Northwestern are all BCS worthiness.

I am not a fan of 12 team conferences, however, sometimes you have to go with the flow. In the Big East case this is not possible to even consider for future planning. Expanding with one football schools is not feasable let alone 4.

The BCS is under tremendous pressure and will be changing again and many more times in the future before the system is correct or a playoff is available.

The next scenerio is the possiblity of dropping BCS automatic bids. Really no issue for the SEC, it could be an issue for the 8 team Big East. This scenerio would shut up the critics and maintain control by the BCS conferences at the same time. The outcome is a committee system.

Expanding to 12 for the Big East would eliminate the competition from the eastern US with non BCS schools and would provide a stonger football conference with justifications of BCS.

Before the Big East loses its BCS bid (that would bring back US Congress to the table), the automatic bids will be dropped to keep the system going. It just obvous of what steps the BCS will need to take to survive.

The odds would be improved to ensure Big East champion receives bid with 12 over 8 if the automatic bids get dropped.

What happens if the BE does lose BCS membership and a Conf USA team steps up and starts to win. Would Louisville, WVU, and Pitt consider moving to a conference that gets regular BCS partipation? This would kill BE football for ever.

The ACC expanded for many of the same reason, eat or be eaten. Dont think for a minute FSU did not have some place to go. If ACC had not expanded FSU, Miami, Clemson, were going to bolt a form a new conference. BC would have followed Miami anywere as well as Syracuse and any other BE football school.

Football will continue to drive major college sports and the Big East has no other choice but split and get to the gate first. Notre Dame is not an option and could have been a leader in keeping Miami in the conference.

Everyone keeps talking about an eastern foot print, well 12 team conferences would help to sure up a regional footprint similiar to how the SEC and Big 12 work. Having 6 regional teams playing the same division would promote more regionalism that having 8 or nine stretched from New England to Florida.

Too bad rivalries and geogrphics dont drive sports any longer as football has taken priority.

Syracuse football game against a Southern Miss is becoming more important than having Syracuse face Georgetown in basketball.

Regardless if we like or not, the ACC expansion should be a wake up call and never let your future planning be put on hold and blinded by current basketball TV benefits.

I dont beleive for a minute that Syracuse and UConn would give up potential BCS access to remain part of the old Big East basketball alignment. Sad but true. It just the state of college sports today.

Maybe Mike T has a lot of connections with the other BCS guys, however, many are bailing on the BCS system (AP) and could cause the good ole boys to turn on each other. This could put the Big East football schools again in harms way without the ability to expand for football on football schools decisions alone.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:20 pm 
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Location: Louisville, KY
West Division:
Notre Dame
Louisville
Cincinnati
West Virginia
Pittsburgh
Penn State (from Big 10)

East Division:
Syracuse
Connecticut
Rutgers
Army
Navy
South Florida

New basketball conference:

St. John's
Seton Hall
Villanova
Georgetown
Providence
Boston Univ (from America East)
Marquette
DePaul
St. Louis (from A-10)
Xavier (from A-10)


Last edited by wbyeager on Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:07 pm 
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Quote:
West Division:
Notre Dame
Louisville
Cincinnati
West Virginia
Pittsburgh
Penn State (from Big 10)

East Division:
Syracuse
Connecticut
Rutgers
Army
Navy
South Florida

New basketball conference:

St. John's
Seton Hall
Villanova
Georgetown
Providence
Boston Univ (from America East)
Marquette
DePaul
St. Louis (from A-10)
Xavier (from A-10)


Well take out Notre Dame and Penn State. Add Temple or East Carolina/Marshall.

For BB take out Boston Add Dayton. Maybe add UMass and Detroit if you want 12.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:59 pm 
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<<The ACC expanded for many of the same reason, eat or be eaten. Dont think for a minute FSU did not have some place to go. If ACC had not expanded FSU, Miami, Clemson, were going to bolt a form a new conference. BC would have followed Miami anywere as well as Syracuse and any other BE football school.>>

I don't think it was imminent by any means, but the pressure was building. Wake Forest knew what they were doing in voting yes. I could see a scenario where FSU, GT, Clemson and UVA invited Miami, VT, SU and BC to join them. Then UNC, MD, NC St. and Duke would be given 1st choice for spots 9-12. Wake would have been out in the cold. Pitt, WVU and Rutgers would have been ready if UNC or Duke were silly enough to hold out.



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:04 am 
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Lash, I agree that The Big East should split - & I expect them to do just that at the end of this 5 year experiment. But my question remains: when they split, how the heck do they find 4 teams to get to 12?

For the sake of this discussion, I'm willing to give up on the Eastern footprint. I'll add Memphis. But Southern Miss? Cal just LOST a BCS bid for beating USM!! Mississippi is too small a state for a third team to be viable & Carolina is too crowded for East Carolina to viable either. Central Florida has been a disaster in both football & basketball at this point. Where do you turn? TCU? SMU? Utah? Seriously, who are the candidates after Memphis?

You mention Duke, Wake, Indiana, etc. But these are the bottom feeders of their leagues. Big East Football already has half a league of bottom feeders. The more you water down The Big East, the less it looks like a BCS conference.

If you're going to go to 12 All-Sports, I'd say follow the road they've already taken. Find great basketball schools & accept the fact that you're a sub-BCS football conference right now. You might as well try to build up mediocre football programs at great basketball schools so that at least you'll have something going for you. Memphis would fit this mold, Marshall would not. Nor would any of the other so-called rising football programs (ECU, UCF, USM, etc.). if it happens, expansion of the 8 football schools should happen gradually, 1 new member at a time.

Cheers


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:52 pm 

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<<The ACC expanded for many of the same reason, eat or be eaten. Dont think for a minute FSU did not have some place to go. If ACC had not expanded FSU, Miami, Clemson, were going to bolt a form a new conference. BC would have followed Miami anywere as well as Syracuse and any other BE football school.>>

I don't think it was imminent by any means, but the pressure was building. Wake Forest knew what they were doing in voting yes. I could see a scenario where FSU, GT, Clemson and UVA invited Miami, VT, SU and BC to join them. Then UNC, MD, NC St. and Duke would be given 1st choice for spots 9-12. Wake would have been out in the cold. Pitt, WVU and Rutgers would have been ready if UNC or Duke were silly enough to hold out.



I could see schools such as Clemson and Florida State would have been satisfied with perhaps even West Virginia (#12 ACC). I believe the orginial ACC expansion proposal, that included BC and Syracuse, was done, in part as comfort to Wake and perhaps, less resistance, comparatively from schools such as Duke and UNC, who did not want to expand.
Though Miami is a private fb power, I believe adding BC comforts Wake and maybe Duke to some extent in that it is another "academic" private without a huge undergraduate student body.
Had the issue been purely athletic prowness, and a natural rival for Maryland, VPI, and UVA, then West Virginia would have been a clear possibility. The ACC did not want WVU though, apparently for other reasons.
Had the SEC been looking to expand in that direction, it is possible they would have viewed WVU more favorable. Just a thought, purely speculative.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:08 pm 
I can understand individuals wanting to still place Penn State and Notre Dame in a BE revised conference, but that is just not reality. Now, they could belong in one's fantasy or perceptually ideal conferences.
Penn State is not inclined to leave the Big10; and the history of how the BE developed and role of Penn State at the time still has soreness to it. That is just one factor, among others, there will be no change with Penn State in terms of conference membership.
Notre Dame is a bit different in that they are still football independent. The one hope resides is that they are BE bb participants. Notre Dame's soft "feelers" in recent times with the Big10 and the ACC probably have little substance and were done for alterior purposes.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:04 pm 
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Quote:
Lash, I agree that The Big East should split - & I expect them to do just that at the end of this 5 year experiment. But my question remains: when they split, how the heck do they find 4 teams to get to 12?

For the sake of this discussion, I'm willing to give up on the Eastern footprint. I'll add Memphis. But Southern Miss? Cal just LOST a BCS bid for beating USM!! Mississippi is too small a state for a third team to be viable & Carolina is too crowded for East Carolina to viable either. Central Florida has been a disaster in both football & basketball at this point. Where do you turn? TCU? SMU? Utah? Seriously, who are the candidates after Memphis?

Believe it or not, Mississippi is growing by leaps and bounds. The main reason Mississippi doesn't get NCAA events is because of their stance on the "Rebel' flag.
Plus, Cal didn't lose a BCS bid for beating USM. It was politics played by Texas that resulted in Cal losing the BCS bid. The result would have been the same if Cal played Texas Tech instead of Southern Miss.

Plus, in regards to Carolina, remember that of those colleges in I-A, only three are public schools. Wake and Duke are private. Private schools for the most part, don't get much in-state support, although there are some exceptions to that rule. ECU is very well supported in-state and is getting its athletics in order right now.
And considering how UCF won the A-Sun not too long ago, I wouldn't be so quick to call UCF basketball a complete disaster. Football took a tumble, but should flourish in C-USA.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:18 pm 
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Friarfan, I am just as big of a college basketball fans as football, however, following basketball priorities is what got the Big East in the current situation. While it is understandable, the Big East has always treated football as a secondary requirement because of the lack of concern by the basketball schools that do not play football. If Providence, St Johns, Seton Hall, Georgetown played major college football, we may not be having this conversation.

With that said, I disagree with your assessment to follow basketball schools that play major college football if a split were to occur.

Syracuse, UConn, Rutgers, Pitt, WVU, South Florida, Cincinnati and Louisville is a top five basketball conference on just basketball merits alone. For this reason the Big East recent expansion receives good marks.

For now, Syracuse, UConn, Pitt, WVU, Cincinnati, and Louisville are ranked in the top 20 for mens basketball.
All the media ranting and raving about the ACC have 7 team ranked at one time during this season which would be 58% of the conference. If the Big East football schools were a conference this year 75% of the conference would be currently ranked.

The Big East needs to sure up football for the future. The only way to accomplish this is expand with schools that have football as a priority.

By the way,
Providence, St Johns, Seton Hall, Villanova, Depaul, Marquette, Georgetown, and Xavier would be a top league as well.

Basketball strength is not the concern should the football schools take the path of all sports conference.

There are two important pros and cons that should be considered in any expansion. Support of football at the school and location of the school.

There are only ten valid schools east of the Mississippi that play major college football. Sun Belt and MAC do not count due to football support.

I have ranked the teams in order of football support versis location with football support having a priority and location next in importance or rated as a con.

If the split were to occur the conference may go 9, 10 or 12.

ranking:
1 East Carolina: pro fb support with con of location

2 Marshall: pro fb support with con of location

3 UCF: pro - location with con new football program

4 Memphis: pro - location - con fb tradition

5 Southern Miss: pro - fb support con - location

6 Navy: pro - national exposure con - all sports

7 Army: pro - national exposure con - all sports

8 Temple: pro - location con - fb support

9 UAB: pro - basketball con - fb suport

10 Tulane: pro - location con - fb support

Most points provided to football support including required 25,000 minimum Big East attendance requirement.

Lowest points provided for non football support.

Based on this ranking.

If the Big East expanded to 9 would take East Carolina. East Carolina replaces Va Tech with potential attendance and bowl interest. East Carolina would be as BCS worthiness as NC, NC State, Duke and Wake if provided membership in a BCS conference.

If the Big East expanded to 10 would take East Carolina and Marshall. See above for same reasons as East Carolina.

If the Big East expanded to 12 would take Central Florida and Memphis.









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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:38 pm 
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[quote author=Lash link=board=acc&thread=1104966474&start=25#1 date=1105485480]
Providence, St Johns, Seton Hall, Villanova, Depaul, Marquette, Georgetown, and Xavier would be a top league as well./quote]

Many of us, who remember what Catholic schools meant to the development of NCAA BB, would like to see such a Catholic Conference.

Just remember..

BC, Holy Cross, Providence, St. John's, Manhattan, Fordham, Seton Hall, Villanova, LaSalle, St. Joe's, Temple, St. Bonaventure, Niagara, Duquesne, Georgetown, Xavier, Notre Dame, DePaul, Loyola (Chi), Marquette, Saint Louis, Loyola (NO), Loyola Marymount...

Who'd I miss?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:38 pm 
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<<With that said, I disagree with your assessment to follow basketball schools that play major college football if a split were to occur.

Syracuse, UConn, Rutgers, Pitt, WVU, South Florida, Cincinnati and Louisville is a top five basketball conference on just basketball merits alone. For this reason the Big East recent expansion receives good marks.>>

I agree with you Lash. BE fb schools are very good in bb. They can afford an ECU or Marshall. However, I believe they need to solidify their eastern base with a Temple or UMass after a split. ECU and Marshall also add fans who follow their teams to bowls. That is a weakness of the NBE.

I think they need Temple or UMass and ECU or Memphis. They should go to 10 first unless Rutgers, Cincinnati and USF all take a big step up in the next couple of years.



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:40 pm 
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<<Plus, Cal didn't lose a BCS bid for beating USM. It was politics played by Texas that resulted in Cal losing the BCS bid. The result would have been the same if Cal played Texas Tech instead of Southern Miss.>>

Cal gave everyone a reason to vote for somebody else. Cal had it in their hands and laid an egg. They've got noone to blame but themselves for playing even a team that had lost 4 of its last 5.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:23 pm 
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Quote:
[quote author=Lash link=board=acc&thread=1104966474&start=25#1 date=1105485480]
Providence, St Johns, Seton Hall, Villanova, Depaul, Marquette, Georgetown, and Xavier would be a top league as well./quote]

Many of us, who remember what Catholic schools meant to the development of NCAA BB, would like to see such a Catholic Conference.

Just remember..

BC, Holy Cross, Providence, St. John's, Manhattan, Fordham, Seton Hall, Villanova, LaSalle, St. Joe's, Temple, St. Bonaventure, Niagara, Duquesne, Georgetown, Xavier, Notre Dame, DePaul, Loyola (Chi), Marquette, Saint Louis, Loyola (NO), Loyola Marymount...

Who'd I miss?


Westwolf, I too fondly remember what Catholic schools meant to the development of NCAA BB. The first 2 games I saw in MSG were on the kindness of relatives who got me in to see St. John's (Tony Jackson, LeRoy Ellis, Kevein Loughery, etc.) & Holy Cross (Jack "The Shot" Foley, George Blaney, etc.). As a Manhattan alum, I appreciate you including them on your list. Although their temas always fell a little short of greatness, they did make a back door contribution to big time college BB when then reporter Ned Irish was covering a Manhattan game at tiny Alumni Hall (900), he decided that it would be better to feature local colleges in double headers at MSG. These college double headers were a big hit & The Garden was our home court when I attended Manhattan. A couple of years later, the NIT was born. The rest is history. It was also a Manhattan player, Junius Kellogg, who broke the college betting scandals of the early '50s. Kellogg paid dearly as he was crippled in a suspicious automobile accident a year later. Indomitable spirit that he was, however, he went on to start wheel chair basketball competition. But, I'm dating myself.

Who'd you miss? Great list; you didn't miss much. How about San Francisco, Seattle, Dayton, & Gonzaga. Although never great, for sentimental reasons, I would also mention Canisius, St. Francis (PA), Detroit, Creighton, & Marist.


Last edited by friarfan on Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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