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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 1:46 am 
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Even though I think they are limited, building a strong regional base with the possibility of being the best bb conference in the country, gives the NBE fb schools the best chance of improving their programs and position in the fb world. If UConn continues to remain respectable and Rutgers attains respectability, the NBE could afford a I-AA program like UMass.

They should encourage UMass to make the committment. Maybe continue to schedule Buffalo and give them advice. Buffalo has everything needed to be successful except that they moved to I-A before they were ready and now have a huge whole to dig out of.

I very much agree that the NE is under-represented. They are under-represented in I-A fb recruits as well, but some of that may be due to their under-representation in I-A.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:10 am 
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What the BE football does not need is a program that is currently 1AA converting to 1A.UMass maybe a fine school but it is consistently underfunded.Its metro reach is minimal and its history of big time sports is quite limited.It also has no stadium and the idea of playing at the Patriots stad,very dstant from the campus is very poor. If it wants to be in 1A football it needs to go the MAC. Weakening the BE is the last thing BE football needs.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:22 am 
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- UMass averaged/averages more fans per-game than UConn did when it was in AA

- UMass won a AA national football title around 1999

- They're stadium holds 17k. UConn had to rely on Hartford for Rentshler, UMass could simlarly look to Springfield but be able to simply expand their own stadium

- They've done this with an annual athletic budget that is roughly 3/5 that of the average BE football member.

Say what you will about the past performance: it's easy to do that while sitting on the inside and looking out. UMass has as much potential as UConn, IMO, if they commit to it and get the same level of help.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:27 pm 
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What the BE football does not need is a program that is currently 1AA converting to 1A. UMass maybe a fine school but it is consistently underfunded.Its metro reach is minimal and its history of big time sports is quite limited.It also has no stadium and the idea of playing at the Patriots stad,very dstant from the campus is very poor. If it wants to be in 1A football it needs to go the MAC. Weakening the BE is the last thing BE football needs.


Ding, ding, ding.

That's precisely it. Lombardi was brought in (from Florida) since he had a strong record of increasing the budgets from donations. The state will give UMass little help. Their basketball program funded most of the non-revenue sports. When Calipari left and hoops took a hit, sports had to be cut.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 1:57 pm 
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I do not see activity upon the part of the BE to invite UMASS.It would be really stupid to spend tens of millions on a football stadium without the go ahead from the BE.Also UCONN athletic prgrams were already tied into the BE.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 3:51 pm 
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Quing posted an article with the suggestion that Boston Univ try for A-10 admission. The A-10 will be 14 (?) teams next fall after all the realignments.

http://www.boston.com/sports/colleges/me....hoops_to_join /

(THANKS QUINN)

Would the A-10 consider adding BU and another member to bring it up to 16? For example, ECU could put everyting but FB into the A-10 and join the BE for FB only. It would allow the A-10 to get into Boston (now that the BE is out)... In addtion, it would give UNCC a nice partner?

I really dont see how the BE is going to get out from under their scheduling difficulties when the NCAA goes to 12 games UNLESS they get a 9th member.

The only other option is to have the members of the BE rotate ND, Navy, and Army on their schedules. Although, we know that ND wont play USF and UCinn.

IF all 3 teams become a 'DE FACTO' 9th member, that would certainly be a scheduling nightmare.


Last edited by panthersc97 on Fri Feb 11, 2005 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 4:17 pm 
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I do not see activity upon the part of the BE to invite UMASS.It would be really stupid to spend tens of millions on a football stadium without the go ahead from the BE.Also UCONN athletic prgrams were already tied into the BE.

No Sh!t. We've only been saying that about every time when comparing the two. The consultants report that recommended UMass not upgrade said specifically that the absence of a conference home rendered the idea unthinkable.

No one has said "Take em now, unconditionally." UMass would need state support that they have not received in the past and frankly do not appear in line for anytime soon. All we've said is IF UMass WERE TO RECEIVE THE SAME HELP UConn HAD, they have the potential to match the Husies's success. And since that potential exceeds the potential I see in any other candidate the BE should consider them.

No one else would provide the long term marketability as no two realistic candidates combined could provide the population base accessible via UMass, Temple excluded. Surely the school would consider the move and dig for more support if they knew the BE was waiting with open arms.

So again, we know the concept comes with a caveat. We also know there are few other quality concepts available for the BE to choose from.



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 4:35 pm 
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Yes the 9th member of the BE football will be some composite of ND and Army and Navy.Yes nothing is simple and straight forward in the BE.Special schedules ,special arrangements.For example look at the BE bb taking DePaul and Marquette.ND playing games at the Meadowlands with Army,Rutgers etc.Bowl arrangements with ND and the BE.Just normal.USF Fla now has a series with Miami.Cincinnati plays Ohio Stateand Louisville is trying to schedule USC and is playing Miami.Some get their top teams playing ND others find by playing other teams.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:00 pm 
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Yes the 9th member of the BE football will be some composite of ND and Army and Navy.Yes nothing is simple and straight forward in the BE.Special schedules ,special arrangements.For example look at the BE bb taking DePaul and Marquette.ND playing games at the Meadowlands with Army,Rutgers etc.Bowl arrangements with ND and the BE.Just normal.USF Fla now has a series with Miami.Cincinnati plays Ohio Stateand Louisville is trying to schedule USC and is playing Miami.Some get their top teams playing ND others find by playing other teams.


What the heck has any of this got to do with special schedules & special arrangements in the Big East? We know that they are a hybrid conference in that they include both football & non-football arrangements. Other than that, what's special?

Notre Dame is not a member of Big East Football, so anything that they do is not a special arrangement with the Big East. Their tie-ins are with the bowls, not with the Big East. Sure, the Big East has accepted this arrangement to get their own bowl tie-in, but it is not an arrangement that they have made with Notre Dame.

Until games with Notre Dame, Army, & Navy count in the Big East standings, any comments about a "composite member" is just blowing smoke. No references or links for this have been posted despite repeated requests.

Membership for DePaul & Marquette & DePaul was not a "special arrangement." Their inclusion is called expansion just as when any other conference adds members. Nor have OOC scheduling for USF, Cincy, & L'ville got anything to do with "special arrangements." I don't get where this whole line of speculation is leading or where it's coming from. ::)


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:05 pm 
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I don't remember whether it was you FF or someone else, but the real key for UMass (and Temple) is committment. Are they and their alumni willing to spend what it takes? UConn had a can-do spirit and got it done with help from the state. UMass may be less likely to get state help, but they are big enough to do what's needed with alumni.

There is certainly good potential in the BE for individual schools. However, its the present and the top that 's lacking. Comparing the NBE to the ACC demonstrates that (looking at "programs" as opposed to one particular year in football)

Rutgers-Maryland potential to be equal, but not close at present
WVU-Clemson roughly equivalent
UConn-UNC potential to be equivalanet, but not there at present
Pitt-GT roughly equivalent
SU-VT roughly equivalent
UMass-UVA potential to be equivalent with committment by UMass
Louisville-NC St. potential to be close
Cincinnati-Duke potential to be better, but not a lot of difference overall at present
USF-Boston College potential to be close, but not there at present

That leaves Wake Forest, who with their small size and 3 fellow Carolinans has limited potential, and Miami and FSU. The NBE has no Miami or FSU.

The Big 10 has Ohio St., Michigan and Penn St. among the top 10 all-time, along with MSU as top 25.

The SEC has Alabama and Tennessee as top 10 caliber programs all-time, along with UGA, LSU, Auburn and Arkansas as top 25.

The Pac 10 has USC, Arizona St., Washington and UCLA as top 25.

The Big 12 has Texas, OU and Nebraska as top 10 along with Colorado and Texas A&M as top 25 + relative newcomer Kansas St.


As always, very well said, Bullet. Excellent analysis.

I will just say that my position is based on pure potential, not where anything is now, but where it could be for schools that successfully build programs.

I see MA, CT, NJ, & WV as core of states that can be dominated by current BE members + UMass in the same way that the ACC dominates NC, VA, & MD. And populations of the two clusters of states are about the same. In this sense a good core.

So, the comparison comes down to the others. I see the following as having similar potential - & potential only:

Syracuse - Florida State
Pitt - Miami
Louisville - Georgia Tech
Cincinnati - Clemson
USF - Boston College

My view of the comparable potential is based purely on location & followings for the schools.

There is no guarantee for success at Florida State after Bobby Bowden leaves. There is no great tradition there. They didn't make him; he made them. Although they have state-wide appeal, FSU's location off in the Flaorida Panhandle makes accessibility difficult for large portions of the state 500 miles & 8 hours from the large population centers of southern Florida. They will always play second fiddle to the Gators, Miami owns souther Florida, & the move up in class by USF only increase competition. Syracuse, on the other hand, is in a unique position for a private - centrally located in upstate new York with no competition in a state of 19 million. It has the tradition of a national championship & All-Americans from Jim Brown, Ernie Davis, Floyd Little, & Larry Csonka through Donovan McNabb & Marvin Harrison. With of programs of comparable caliber, SU has at least as much potential as FSU to attract fans & recruits.

Pitt & Miami are comparable types of schools in large pro cities. Back in the '70s when Pitt was winning a national championship, nobody thought that U of Miami was anything special in football. Howard Snellenberger built the program there & it has been sustained by others since, but if someone does the same at Pitt, it is positioned to be just as successful.

Both Louisville & Georgia Tech are in SEC states. The difference is that the Georgial Bulldogs are a football power & the Kentucky Wildcats are not. Without any real competition in-state, Louisville is in position to be THE football program in the state despite itw otherwise limited appeal.

Although Ohio football is dominated by Ohio State, the Cincinnati metro area alone has almost 2 million people. There is room in the state for the Bearcats to carve out their own niche here if they build a big time program. Even if they recruit only Ohio State's leftovers, a state of 11 million should provide the recruits & fans for a second team. How much better can Clemson do in a state of 4 million that they share with the state flagship playing in the SEC?

Yes, the potential of USF is limited & pretty much restricted to the Tampa area, but how much potential does BC have? It's been pretty much limited to its alums - of which there are plenty in the region, but it's been without competition in the region for recruits or fans. With the recent addition of UConn as a second BCS school in New England & the potential addition of UMass, I can't see them doing any better. I see USF as a match for them

All of this would only mean anything if these BE schools can build competitive programs. The potential is there. It's up to them.

Cheers . . .


Last edited by friarfan on Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:16 pm 
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What is the object of league standings?To determine who goes to what bowl.ND has that already with BE.Yes ND has special relationship with BE football.You can deny all you want.But it exists and is getting stronger.Yes ND still claims it is independent,but that is for fan consumption.By 2009 this strong relationship will have gotten stronger.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 7:17 pm 
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Tigershark, Notre Dame does not have an arrangement with the Big East or else they'd be eligible for every bowll to which the Big East has tie-ins & only those bowls. They have agreements with the bowls; that is the difference.

Your point earlier about the Big East not needing a I-AA program like UMass is a good one. You're right. The problem is that The Big East probably needs to expand its football membership. Any candidate for expansion will be a non-BCS program already & almost by definition will therefore mean that such a program is in the lower half of I-A. Geography has to be factored in to some degree - unless they were to go to a 2-division set-up with the MWC, as was once proposed here. The best non-BCS programs are pretty much west of the Mississippi. So where do they turn?

Even if you are right about a relationship with ND, Army, & Navy, that is really no solution at all. So what I have tried to consider here is what program(s) might have the potential to an upgrade & be able to sustain here. AND what program might bring added value to the BE. They have already expelled Temple because Temple was bringing nothing to the table so the relationship was not mutually beneficial. I may be wrong, but New England/New York is an underdeveloped market in college football. UMass is the best candidate to tap into this market. You are right about there being no support for this either financially or otherwise at UMass, but there is interest among some elements of the UMass community. I have seen this develop from an impossible dream at UConn, so I know it can happy with the right combination of circumstances. MA is a small state. People would drive from all over the state to wherever the games are played. Penn State taps the far-away Philly market & fans travel from there to Happy Valley. The drive from Boston to Sprinfield/Amherst or from Amherst to foxboro is much,much shorter. Heck, season ticket holders in large numbers drive from Albany, NY to foxboro to see the Patriots.

The point is that this whole Big East thing is in its infancy. It's where the Big Ten was a century ago. It will only develop on a firm foundation if someone comes along & sees the possibilities a century from now, not just next year.


Last edited by friarfan on Fri Feb 11, 2005 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 10:07 pm 
So, who would be good candidates for BE fb expansion?

Notre Dame- enough said about the Irish from "no way" to some mythical Meadowlands concoction.

Army and Navy - same ole Service Academies stuff

A State Flagship in the region? UMASS discussion and potential (heard Gunner's supportive points on this). Others: Maine? (hey, that win last season over Miss State who beat Florida ;); maybe there is more there than Ice Hockey). New Hampshire? Rhode Island? (Both sound too subdued and cozy for 1-A levels. Then there is Ohio University (does have the State name and an historical claim). But size for the BE? Rural, Athens, Ohio? Then there is Delaware, often very successful in 1-AA fb. In the past, like Georgia Southern, seem happy where they are at for now.

Someone already in a BCS conference? Nawwh, the BE are the ones trying to grasp their security levels.

Dropping below/parallel to Flagships, any IMPORTANT STATE State Universities available? Can't think of any.

Next, schools with Big City Names: Well, Louisville and Cincy were added, among existing Syracuse and Pittsburgh. Whose available perhaps: Memphis? Talked about, but getting almost into the southwest geographically. How about a Univ. Alabama-Birmingham-does have some bb credentials--but would it fit? Toledo in the MAC doesn't sound bad, or does it?

OK, that leaves the dreaded DIRECTIONAL SCHOOLS: The MAC has a handful. Here, East Carolina stands out--established, fan base, geographically appropriate, etc. Hey, South Florida was taken, but South Florida are two words that flow together nicely, unlike Central Florida that really sounds directional and Disney (which may be a plus in a way). Northern Illinois, distance the other way, but a school showing much promise. Southern Miss? Kinda far too.

And then there is the favorite of many posters: Marshall. West Virginia says no; Marshall though State, has no VPI pull as in Virginia politics. Marshall would probably not be a popular choice with others in the BE.

Other eastern 1-AAs: William and Mary, James Madison (the I-81 school who just won a 1-AA championship). Fordham? Sounds too urban, just a smaller Temple? Then there is Villanova, already a BE school, could they replace Temple? They did have a histroy of a bigtime attempt, dropped fb, and returned to now 1-AA.

Others in the MAC: Miami-Ohio is awfully close to Cincy. Bowling Green? Sounds really local and grounded.

Then, last, maybe even least, there is Temple. Sounds like they may go MAC for fb only---is that the last stop on the way to dropping or downgrading fb?

UMASS and East Carolina, though not sounding as if they belong in the same perspective, may be two of the stonger BE possibilities, depending on the direction the BE goes.





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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:24 am 
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DogsNC@cks, we are thinking along the same lines. However, I do not think that the Big East ultimately has to think in terms of East Carolina OR UMass. I see it as a short term / long term proposition.

ECU would be a great addition in the short term if the Conference splits. The addition of ECU would quickly balance the schedule (4 home / 4 away) as a 9th member and provide another good fan following. The school, as you mentioned, is not geographically odd, but is not in a core state. I believe that given the commitment by ECU, an opportunity to compete in a BCS conference would really allow the football program to grow. Basketball is another story; it is difficult to recruit top basketball talent in ACC country to play in the Big East.

UMass is a great long term prospect. From a university standpoint, it is the kind of major state institution that lends more credibility and regional identity to the Conference. Nobody is saying, Tigershark, that this would be easy or a given. However, if an all sports Big East were looking for a 10th – 12th, UMass would be a great fit.

In this day of expansion, there seems to be no reason to expand beyond nine unless going for twelve. Nine provides a balanced schedule and twelve yields a championship game. If ECU became the ninth, the Conference can expand at its leisure when viable candidates such as UMass, Delaware, or possibly Villanova / New Hampshire / Rhode Island achieved the financial backing and political will to make such a move.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:26 pm 
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Events that hardly likely to happen
UMASS goes to the BE,ECU goes to the BE,Memphis goes to the BE,A MAC school goes to the BE

The LI paper Newsday does not write mythical stories about the Meadowlands ND,Army and the BE.

USA Today stories about ND getting rid of current schedule of teams by 2009 from Kevin White


ND does have an arrangement with BE and the Bowls the BE has to be potential selection(this would not
happen without BE approval:going on since 1994)


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