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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:03 am 
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Since all BCS conferences will be up for renewal in 2007, I wanted to create a seperate thread for a plan to include four MWC schools to bring BE football up to the other BCS conference standards.

Most think the BE has to wait until five years is up to make a decision on a split and football expansion. This is not true. The Big East can make a decision in 2007 to split and expand for football and allow 27 months notice to its basketball brethren and complete its 5 year obligation to the current 16 member alignment.

A new football alignment could be ready for play as early as July 1, 2010.

East: Syracuse, Connecticut, Rutgers, Pitt, WVU,
South Florida

West: Utah, BYU, New Mexico, Colorado State, Cincinnati, Louisville

Since the BCS is basically a TV contract that includes the four major bowls of Rose, Sugar, Orange, and Fiesta, along with ABC TV and Fox TV, this proposal for BE expansion should get the attention of each of these groups.

My proposal for the Big East football schools to present to the BCS upon renewal are the following arguments for inclusion with automatic bid.

Granted the Big East does not have the super star of a Miami, U of Florida, Texas, or USC just yet, there is lots of tradition in the 12 tream proposal.

Pitt, Syracuse, and BYU have all won national titles in football.

WVU has played for one and had a chance to tie for one in both the current BCS Fiesta and Sugar Bowls.

Louisville and Utah have both won the current BCS Fiesta Bowl

As for markets and interest of BCS, the new alignment would have six states without a BCS conference schools. The states of New York, Connecticut, New Jersey, West Virginia, New Mexico, and Utah would have exclusive rights to BE games. Factor in the major TV markets of Pittsburgh Pa, Tampa Fl, Cincinnati Ohio, Louisville Ky, and Denver Co and you have much interest in this conference alignments participation in a BCS bowl. BYU would bring a large western Mormon interest as well.

By the way ABC and Fox there is a conference football championship game with this alignment that should have the same interest for those markets as well.

This alignment would be my projection as the best bet for Big East Football starting July 1, 2010.





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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:21 pm 
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Lash,

I went ahead and looked up the revenue for 2003-2004 from the DOE that the schools reported was FB revenue. Here are the numbers (in millions) for the candidates (including your scenerio):

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/

BYU: $10
Utah: $5
CSU: $5
UNM: $7
TCU: $10
Memphis: $5
ECU: $6
UCF: $2
Ohio: $3
Marshall: $5
USM: $5
Tulane: $6
Temple: $8
Villanova: $0.6 *** (I-AA)
Delaware: $5 *** (I-AA)
UMass: $0.7 *** (I-AA)

Of course most of this is probably related to FB attendance because none of the schools here have BCS money (is that reported as revenue?) except Temple. Not much difference in terms of FB revenue here. The biggest money makers are BYU and TCU.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:28 pm 
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PatherSC97, its got to be the horrible TV contract the MWC has for football. Gaining eastern markets and BCS revenue would really put a jump in revenue any four western schools would gain by BE membership.

You bring up a really good point. There should be no problem with getting a MWC team interested in joining the BE with those current revenue levels.

Remember how much revenue increase Miami, Va Tech, and BC made with the jump to the ACC. Most ACC schools remained close to current levels of 8 million per year in football payouts for TV, however, the three formal BE schools jumped about 3 million per year in TV shares.

As for attendance, BYU has great attendance and Utah has a stadium that seats 45 thousdand which is close in BE standards.

Colorado State and New Mexico would probably have to increase the size of the stadium to bring up to Big East standards and fill the stadiums as well.

This is the first good argument that BE schools may have with Colorado State and New Mexico in expansion.

Then again, Cincinnati has the same issue currently. Cincinnati could play in the pro stadium if necessary.

Gunnerfan, you have done some forecasting on potential revenue with expansion. Any idea on how much this 12 team league would make in TV revenue?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:24 pm 
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Lash,

I would like to point out that the MWC has a TV package of $11 million per year (same with CUSA). I really dont know how much of that is FB compared to BB as CSTV has the rights to both.

As you know, the BE TV FB is $8 million but the BB is $7 -11 million and may increase. The difference is about $10 million if the BB TV contract is the same. Where the BE really jumps ahead of the MWC is the BCS berth ($14 million) and the NCAA Tourney credits.

If you look at money made by the conference (see my post in reply #291 under Re: Gator Bowl to change conferences in BCS system Banter you can see the BE makes about $30 to $35 million more as a CONFERENCE than the MWC.

The point in that the TV money is very similar but not the 'total package'. If you guarentee the BCS berth and if the MWC does NOT take Fresno or Boise to get a 'Guarenteed' BCS berth in the next contract then you might have something. It certainly would be weird to have such a wide geography. There really wouldn't be anything tieing the schools together other than the TV and BCS contract.

I wonder if it would make the BCS people happy because it would essentially kill any autoberth chances from a reformed WAC-MWC because the BE would be taking the most 'popular' teams in that region (please correct me if I am wrong?) and it would keep it in the 'Big 6'.


Last edited by panthersc97 on Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:48 pm 
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PantherSC97, I am sure it would make the BCS folks happy if the Big East expanded with those schools and eliminated the chance of another conference gaining an automatic bid. The other non BCS conferences would continue to be eligible for an at large BCS bids which will be much more difficult to get on a consistent basis.

The main point on this expansion idea was to ensure the Big East has no change of losing BCS and the revenue that comes with it.

I think the Big East football contract will gradually increase as the conference stabilizes without Miami. ABC is paying 200 thousand per BE game this year up from last year of 100.

With expansion of the MWC schools this could obvouisly be increased with some really good cross country matchups (i.e Syracuse/BYU, WVU/Utah, Louisville/NM.

Another important fact on taking MWC schools compared with other eastern teams is ability to attact more TV revenue for the football championship game.

The Big East is looking to increase the BB contract from 11 to 16 million. This would be interesting to see if this 12 team alignment would keep close to the current BE contract to ensure close to 1 million payout per school.

I cant see why this 12 team alignment would not get 12 million per year per basketball. Utah and NM would bring something to the table to help with this contact.

Again the main point of expansion for BE should be focused on solid football programs and in states without other BCS schools where possible.

PatherSC97, you never commented if you think the BE will split. I think 2007 is going to be a very interesting year. BCS is top priority as we can see from a revenue standpoint.




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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 10:41 am 
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Quote:
Again the main point of expansion for BE should be focused on solid football programs and in states without other BCS schools where possible.

PatherSC97, you never commented if you think the BE will split. I think 2007 is going to be a very interesting year. BCS is top priority as we can see from a revenue standpoint.


Hard to say at this point. I think we will have an idea after two years of BE play. If the BE feels that they will lose the Automatic bid then they need to be proactive and certainly think outside of the box because selecting teams from the MAC or CUSA is certainly not going to get them to keep the BCS. The MAC or CUSA wont have a consisten top-15 team. If that would be the case (say Memphis), then I am sure the BE will take them.

The more I think about it the more I like the idea 'on paper'. I would certainly think it would be better to have only 6 West teams and 6 East teams but I dont think that would be possible.

Do you have any idea of what the MWC exit fees are?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 10:58 am 
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RE: Size of UNM and CSU's stadiums.

I believe UNM has been gradually expanding their stadium over the years. Right now its at 37K. I've read where they would like to eventually get to 42K. I saw this stadium (University Stadium in ABQ) about 4 years agao, and it seem to be good sized and could easily be expanded.

CSU had on their website a page about Hughes Stadium being expanded to 35K in the near future and future plans of going to 50K. I've been to this stadium also. It is located in a isolated area and could easily be expanded. Its right at the foothills of the Rockies.

Rice-Eckles Stadium in SLC is at 46K and was 50K temporarily for the 2002 Winter Games. The website at one time talked of the stadium eventually going to 50K on a permanent basis.

All three of these schools have had improving and at near capacity attendance in recent years. Last year's Fiesta Bowl was impressive for Utah.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 11:35 am 
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UNM drew 44,760 for the New Mexico State game last week. I believe there's still a bit of grass berm remaining after the last expansion that allows them to shoehorn people in (don't know if they let people on the grass or set up temporary bleachers). They averaged 37K last year, so they're probably overdue for the next expansion.

Colorado State has a somewhat similar design and situation, actually (somewhat- rounded at one end IIRC). There was one big game during their good years not so long ago where they did have people sitting on the berm.

Funny thing is that a Utah / BYU / New Mexico / UNLV expansion would not only improve the football profile, but last year all four schools had higher average basketball attendance than the Big East average... and New Mexico is pretty much the prize there. The Mountain West overall tends to draw better average attendance than at least one BCS conference annually. That's usually the Pac-10... think I've shown that the Pac plays in smaller buildings, mind you.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:18 pm 
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Thanks Pounder on that info.

I was just checking some stadium info clearinghouse website on college stadiums, and it actually sounds like UNM is already at 42,000 and CSU is now at 35,000 with the possibility of going to 40,000 soon. I looked at the info I was quoting/stating about 1.5 to 2 years ago and it now seems to have come to fruition.

It seems the popularity of these MWC flagships are growing, with these gradual increases in attendance.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:53 pm 
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Great feedback everyone. The attendance figures for those four MWC schools just looks that more impressive for a BCS expansion minded conference.

Utah was very impressive with attendance at the Fiesta bowl last year. Lots of cars with Utah flags driving around town.

There is another benefit for inclusion of Utah, NM, and BYU in the Big East. All three schools are closer to my home town Fiesta Bowl than any Big 12 school. This would be good if the Fiesta wanted to include both conferences as anchors.

PatherSC97, the Big East needs to keep 8 schools together for a certain amount of time to qualify as a division 1A conference.

Besides, I like Cincinnati and Louisville in the west to provide travel partners for the MWC team that would travel east for basketball each year in that division. Cincy/Lou would only have to make two trips out west in football on certain years.

This proposed conference has very good balance in each division very similar to the other 3 BCS conferences with divisions.

There are three large state flagship type schools in each division with Utah/NM/Colorado St in the west and UConn/Rutgers/WVU in the east.

There is Syracuse in the east and BYU in the west as private schools having large support in the respected regions.

Then you have Cincinnati/Louisville in the west to balance out with Pitt/South Fla in the east as large city state supported schools.

It is hard to find a hole in this idea. I think it could really work and would make lots of BCS folks pleased.

It would be very good football and top notch basketball.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:02 pm 
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How about a 6 West/6 East split?

West - BYU, Colorado St, New Mexico, UNLV, Utah, Wyoming
East - Connecticut, Louisville, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Syracuse, West Virginia

Adds 2 more states to the BCS mix.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:17 pm 
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Lash,

Is this an all sports conference? Just curious how you would deal with travel for Soccer, Track, Baseball, etc.

It would be nice to have travel partners for all the schools, but as you can see USF and UNM/CSU really stand out. You could have UL/UC, WVU/Pitt, some combo of SU/RU/UConn, BYU/Utah.....

Just curious.......


Quote:


PatherSC97, the Big East needs to keep 8 schools together for a certain amount of time to qualify as a division 1A conference.



I thought it was 6.... Did that change recently - Around the time the BE lost 3 teams to the ACC?


Last edited by panthersc97 on Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:45 pm 
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Be sure to send MT a copy of your new league. Ireally think Hawaii should be included.Its a much better travel spot than Utah.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:27 pm 
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Tigersharktwo, what makes you think the football schools would bring MT with them. MT will remain to help Villanova and company expand with more basketball only schools.

Will just leave Hawaii for Villanova to have a partial football schedule with Army/Navy and one game with Notre Dame each year. In each year that Notre Dame does not play Villanova in football they can make a trip to the beach in Hawaii or something like that may be possible?

PatherSC97, the Big East football schools have made it very plain that there will be no football only schools. Most likely due to horrible experience with Temple only and Notre Dame for basketball only.

SportKC, in a perfect world where everyone were independent, that plan looks really great.

I do think there is a requirement by NCAA that schools have to have 8 members to qualify for both basketball and football. You would not want to expand to 12 and have to wait five years for an automatic bid.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:44 pm 
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Does anyone know about Pacific tradewinds? I'm speculating on the possibility that Hawaii could be affiliated with an eastern conference because it could theoretically be faster to travel over Eurasia to the East Coast. :D

If I didn't know any better... um, wait, I don't know any better. This formula sounds like the perfect excuse for Louisville to push the ACC for membership. I'm sure they LOVE the travel expense you're foisting on them.


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