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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:09 pm 
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I can't see Syracuse or UConn moving down to 1AA football. Syracuse has history, and, according to the US Dept of Education, makes a 4.5 million dollar profit on football per year. UConn only profits by a little more than 1 million, but their move up to the Football Bowl Subdivision is still quite recent. I don't think the institution would pull the plug so soon.

I don't see Syracuse or UConn leaving the BE football schools, regardless of the possible geographic isolation you hypothesize.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:55 pm 
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fossil, the intent of this post was not to hypothesize on limits of geographical isolation and more on what may become the inevitable for Big East football.

Something is keeping the schools from splitting and is clearly placing the football conference is grave danger of being raided again.

My guess is not the basketball TV contract or NCAA payouts for basketball that is the glue for keeping both of these entities together. The new contract is simply not going to make that much money when split 16 ways. Its good, however, not fantastic to allow football to lose BCS membership.

If the Big East is raided again and lose another school, the impacts could much more drastic from a reputation standpoint. Of course I am referring to the BCS. BCS is all about reputation or better stated how TV and the BCS bowls think about a conference and the status that comes with that conference.

Everyone just assumes the Big East will pick up the pieces and add another football school and the 16 schools would continue business as usual.

Not so fast!

This time around the BCS may want more security than just the minimum NCAA standards the Big East is currently providing.

For example a loss of Rutgers really blows a major hole in the Big East TV market appeal. With Rutgers in the Big Ten and Syracuse bringing up the bottom of the football league, there may be more pressure placed on the Big East automatic BCS bid.

To a great extent the Big East was able to keep the BCS bid due to the appeal of the huge eastern markets specifically New York City.

Once WVU won the Sugar Bowl 2 years back and Louisville won the Orange bowl last year, it may be the strength of football this time around that is needed to retain BCS automatic bid and not so much on benefits of TV markets if Rutgers is lured to the Big Ten.

If its is football strength that is the deciding factor for the Big East in the future, then expanding with more depth may be the only answer to retain the BCS automatic bid. Granted Louisville and WVU are trending very good, however, top to bottom of the conference is not necessarily doing so for football. Specifically Syracuse and UConn. Factor in that Rugers would be gone and you only have seven teams. Two out of seven that is bottom feeeders in not going to win any one over.

This leads back to my final point on something is keeping the schools from splitting.

If it is not due to the basketball revenue keeping the conference together, then it has to be simply the votes or desire of all the 8 football schools to make the decision to split.

I think Syracuse and UConn have a lot if influence on keeping the current format. Probably more of a preference that do Louisville and WVU. Lousiville primarly joined the Big East for BCS and has little tradition with most Big East teams.

If it came down to needing more football schools to retain BCS membership, I have can not see WVU and Louisville taking every step that is possilbe to keep the BCS status.

I am not sure Syracuse and UConn have the same goals if it required to split from the basketball schools.

The purpose again of my post was not a decision that Syracuse and UConn may want, however, may become a decision they have to eventually make.

I am just not convinced that Syracuse and UConn have the desire to do what is best for football as both are really basketball schools.

I believe losing another football school will be much more devastating to the Big East concerning BCS than everyone is assumming. Much more damaging than the Big East is admitting too.

I think everyone in the Big East is just hoping it does not happen. This is just bad planning and is not a good defense for retaining BCS.

fossil if you can tell me why the Big East thinks staying together in the current format at the risk of raids and losing more football schools is worth it, then you have answered the million dollar question.

I certainly cant figure it out and why the Big East officials are saying that nobody out there can bring any value.

If its the BCS, there is no better value to bring to a conferene in all of college sports.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:13 pm 
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Quote:
fossil, the intent of this post was not to hypothesize on limits of geographical isolation and more on what may become the inevitable for Big East football.

...

The purpose again of my post was not a decision that Syracuse and UConn may want, however, may become a decision they have to eventually make.

...

fossil if you can tell me why the Big East thinks staying together in the current format at the risk of raids and losing more football schools is worth it, then you have answered the million dollar question.


I did realize that-my apologies. Even if the distances Syracuse and UConn became too problematic, I doubt they would de-emphasize football. Instead I suspect they may opt for independent status. (I should have been clearer that their status was my main point.) If they could play each other, Army, Navy, ND, and a Northeast 1AA, that would be a good start to a regular schedule.

I guess I diverged from your intent because I (unfortunately) don't see geography as much of a problem in the eyes of Football Bowl Subdivision schools.

As for your question for me...I don't know why the Big East keeps its current form. (Aside from the basketball history.) I agree that an all sports conference would be best for football. And I think for basketball and other sports as well.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:33 am 
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fossil, I personally do not care how many basketball teams you have in a single conference as long as there is no hindrance to getting to 12 members for football.

I think the Big East will have no choice to go to 12 football schools in the future once all 6 BCS conferences are moving in that direction.

It is just a matter of time before the Big Ten goes 12.

The Pac 10 is on record and will consider 12 if the Big Ten takes that direction.

Taking a different approach for getting to 12 members without necessarily having to split can be done.

The best possible thing that could happen to the Big East would be for Notre Dame to leave for the Big Ten.

This would provide an immediate opening for 9th football member.

For now, I will add UCF as a replacement travel partner for South Florida.

Assisting Villanova to upgrade to 1A and play game at Lincoln Field is an obvious easy choice for 10 football members.

Army and Navy are my two wild cards. I don't see either of these two schools turning down full BCS football membership. Simply put, a national schedule is not going to make you a BCS school where as BCS membership already places you with a national schedule. Forget the 4x4 games which was a joke from the start and not one person on this board with exception of Tigersharktwo gave this idea a remote chance of getting off the ground. Full football membership for both Army and Navy is another story.

If Notre Dame moves on which hopefully is not wishful thinking, then the following 12 team conferees would work and not require a split.

Continental: Louisville, Cincinnati, WVU, Pitt, Villanova, Syracuse

Coastal: UConn, Rutgers, Army, Navy, UCF, South Florida.

If Notre Dame remains, then the conference is going to have to expand to 18 basketball schools regardless of who likes it or not.

It the price of doing BCS business.

Less continue to go with Army and Navy as full football only members.

The other option would be to take UCF and Memphis to increase the all sports league to 18. The commish and basketball schools may come screaming and crying, however, it just life if the conference wants to remain together.

I do not see any issue with 18 schools. It just going to cost more. There is no more logistical issues with 18 than there is with 16.

The most likely direction the Big East will take assuming all groups want to remain in together including Notre Dame.

18 member basketball league

Army and Navy as full football only members

Central Florida and Memphis as the 17 and 18 all sports members.

Then the division could line up like the following:

Contentential: Louisville, Memphis, Cincinnati, Pitt, WVU, Syracuse

Coastal: UConn, Rutgers, Army, Navy, UCF, South Florida

Basketball would then have no division and all 18 members would play each other for one game and one double game with a selected rival or made for TV game.

This would allow the Big East to remain in together.

This would allow football to join the other 5 BCS conferences with 12 members and a play to the BCS with a conference championship game.

The only price that is being paid is splitting basketball revenue 16 ways verses 16.

That is price the Big East can not afford not to pay and remain a legitimate BCS conference.







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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:32 pm 
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Where are all those Big East teams that are suppose to show up on Notre Dame's future football schedules?


The official word is that Notre Dame will begin playing a rotating Big East schedule, involving home & home series against each of the 8 big east teams, in 2009. They will play 3 Big East opponents per season - one home, one away, one at a neutral site - beginning in 2011. The following are currently listed on future Notre Dame schedules although some are tentative & others are yet to be determined:

2008 - Pitt, Syracuse
2009 - Pitt, Louisville
2010 - Pitt, Rutgers, West Virginia or Louisville
2011 - Pitt, Rutgers, West Virginia
2012 - Pitt, Rutgers


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:33 pm 
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FriarFan, this a very positive step foreword for Notre Name.

Since it appears very likely the Big East may never split, what is your thoughts on Army and Nave as football only members? Do you think there is any interest from the Big East to bring Army and Navy into the conference as full football only members?



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:32 pm 
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Army isn't interested in a partial BE membership but perhaps Navy is - as long as Navy gets access to some BE bowls.

The logical solution would be for ND to up the number of games from 3 to 4 and for Navy to play the other 4. The problem is that ND is playing RU and Pitt for 2 of their 3 games and Navy I am sure would prefer to play Pitt and RU as well. Neither ND or Navy has history or any significant history with USF, UL, UC, and WVu.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:53 am 
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PantherSC97, my question to FriarFan was referring to the possiblitiy of Army and Navy as full membership for Big East football.

I can understand the reason that Army and Navy do not want to play a partial football schedule.

Since the Big East considered a schedule alliance and apparently both Navy and Army declined, is there any interest in offering full membership to both of the service academies.

It would be interesting to see if Army and Navy would take the same approach if offered full football membership. Of course that depends if there is any interest from the Big East with this option.

I can't see the Big East giving up on some type of option of using Army and Navy for football.




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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:58 am 
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Quote:

Quote:
Where are all those Big East teams that are suppose to show up on Notre Dame's future football schedules?


The official word is that Notre Dame will begin playing a rotating Big East schedule, involving home & home series against each of the 8 big east teams, in 2009. They will play 3 Big East opponents per season - one home, one away, one at a neutral site - beginning in 2011. The following are currently listed on future Notre Dame schedules although some are tentative & others are yet to be determined:

2008 - Pitt, Syracuse
2009 - Pitt, Louisville
2010 - Pitt, Rutgers, West Virginia or Louisville
2011 - Pitt, Rutgers, West Virginia
2012 - Pitt, Rutgers


To what extent this may be out of the ordinary? Two or three could be deemed somewhat routine external to any ladies agreement.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:35 am 
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PantherSC97, my question to FriarFan was referring to the possiblitiy of Army and Navy as full membership for Big East football.

I can understand the reason that Army and Navy do not want to play a partial football schedule.

Since the Big East considered a schedule alliance and apparently both Navy and Army declined, is there any interest in offering full membership to both of the service academies.

It would be interesting to see if Army and Navy would take the same approach if offered full football membership. Of course that depends if there is any interest from the Big East with this option.

I can't see the Big East giving up on some type of option of using Army and Navy for football.


Apologies Lash. I just don't think there would be any interest from either Army or Navy in full membership. Both like their ability to schedule who they want, when they want. They make make the schedule as tough as they want. Navy has been successful recently with this formula. Army wants to try that as well.



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:03 pm 
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I can understand the independent stance for Navy and Army and their wishes for scheduling formulas that work for them. For any BCS conference, Navy and Army, it would be fair to say are at a disadvantage in terms of recruiting----or at least it is reasonable say, have to do it differently. This certainly is a factor in the styles of offenses and defensive schemes they employ, particularly when facing programs focused on greater speed.

On the other hand, folks can point to Air Force and note they have been consistently competitive in the MWC---a respectable conference with a couple or so of BCS caliber programs. Quality can even be pointed to regarding Air Force's bb program during recent seasons. And, by comparison, Navy has shown it can win the Commanders-in-Chief trophy during recent seasons. So it is assumed Navy and Army could be competitive in some bowl-oriented conference.

Citing Army's dismal stint in C-USA would suggest conference play is a bad idea for them. However, would Army's record have been much different during the period if they remained independent? There have been multiple years whereby both Army and Navy, as independents, had high losses. Part of Army's motivation for entering C-USA was to garner more wins.

Still, the issue of recruiting comes into play. I tend to believe neither Navy or Army should group themselves with any conference whereby the recruiting for them is appreciably weaker/constrained by comparison. While either or both can make up ground with skilled coaching, intellect, and discipline; the recruiting factor is there for the long-term.

We know that places such as Vanderbilt, Mississippi State, Northwestern, and Rice have their tough recruiting challenges be it location, academics, and/or tradition within their respective conferences. Each conference will have one or more perennially at a disadvantage. It can vary among sports, i. e. Kentucky bb.

I am not saying Navy and/or Army would be inadequate fb additions to the Big East. Certainly both have positives to offer. The fundamental question is if either could keep up for the long-term. I am not sure on that. I would say yes, if scholarship limits for non-academy schools further generated more parity, and academics became a more accommodating factor for recruitment. Too much of the reverse has happened over the past decades.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:24 pm 
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It's too bad that there isn't another 1A conference in the NE - that would be an ideal conference for Army and Navy to play in. If part of the CAA wanted to go 1A - that would be ideal. I don't see it happening in the next 5 years either with the moratorium on teams moving up from 1AA.



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:44 am 
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Agree

There seems to be a number of northeastern schools that would fit properly in a second- or third-tier 1A (FBS) conference, if one existed.

Those that come to mind include:
Army
Navy
Temple
SUNY - Buffalo

and a number of CAA / American East schools that have aspirations beyond 1-AA (FCS)
These might include:
SUNY - Stony Brook
SUNY - Albany
U Mass
Rhode Island
Maine
New Hamshire
Delaware
Villanova

That would make a pretty nice 12-team football conference, that has a reasonable geography, and (initially at least) all of those schools would be on a relatively even footing with each other.
Over time, if a school became dominant in such a conference and had capability to fund athletics at a big-time level, it could consider moving up to the Big East...


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:53 am 
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Sorry - to clarify the above (yes I realize Villanova is in the Big East for other sports)....
I am referring to this being a FB only conference. Georgetown (BE / Patriot League Football) would be yet another potential candidtate...


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:11 am 
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I had posted this in another thread, but Army and Navy could make nice additions to a Bowl Subdivision Atlantic 10:

Atlantic 10 South:
Appalachian State
Charlotte
Georgia Southern
Georgia State
James Madison
Old Dominion

Atlantic 10 North:
Army (football only)
Delaware
Massachusetts
Navy (football only)
Stony Brook
Temple

I had St. Louis, La Salle, Dayton, and Xavier as non-football members (St. Louis in the South Division).

I didn't include Villanova because I'd figured they'd be in the Big East as soon as the transition is complete, or at least far enough along for them to count as a Bowl Subdivision opponent.


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