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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 4:21 am 
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The reason AD's and presidents are hired is to make decisions on strategic matters.Purity of all sports members does not beat out markets and revenue numbers.How specifically does the addition of marginal football teams from cusa/mac/caa make the BE football stronger?IT DOES NOT.Also the sacrifice of bb in pursuit of such an all sports concept does make any sense.If PSU were joining for football this would be a totally different case.More than marginal improvement in football is required for an all sports concept not to be DESTRUCTIVE to the BE.The value of affilated football games with the bb structure in place vs a marginal football school without the bb structure is clear.There is a middle ground ,take the best of the bb only schools and their market place,Villanova and Georgetown or St Johns or Memphis.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:14 am 
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TS2,

I understand what you are saying, the BE should keep the markets in Philly and DC with Nova and GT and the BABE would look like this:

ND
VU
GT
St. Johns or Memphis
Pitt
WVU
USF
UL
UC
UConn
SU
RU

However, this scenerio basically locks in the BE again to having at least 2, possibly 3 or even 4 BB only schools. The FB side would not be able to expand again and you would be in the same situation as before the three teams left for the ACC.

a BABE with at least ND is much more FLEXIBLE to take a rising team for all sports in the future (Memphis?) or take an all sports team in case ND decides the Big10 or ACC is right for them - IF that happens.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:05 am 
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ND makes more money in football than most any b10 team.Losing their tv contract is not on ND's mind.How does having 2-3 non-football schools really hurt things for for football?There are no new great teams on line to join the BE for football.The 8th game can be made up through affilate scheduling.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:27 am 
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First, I am not claiming that ND makes less money than other Big10 teams.

Second, I am not saying that there are great teams ready to join the BE.

What I am saying is that the BE needs to be in a position to adapt to changing circumstances - they were not in 2003. While RIGHT NOW, ND is not going to goto the Big10 their situation on joining a conference may change by 2010 or 2015.

In addition, you do not know if any other teams from CUSA are going to increase their commitments to FB the same as with what UL, UC, or USF did. No one knows which teams may rise by 2010 or 2015 and look very good to a BABE.

By taking the 2 or 3 bb teams you are essentially locking in those 3 teams for the long term to the BE. By having those teams present in the BE you lack the flexibility an all sports conference would have to be able to take 1 or 2 teams for all sports in case either ND leaves or a 'Louisville' appears on the radar.


Last edited by panthersc97 on Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 11:02 am 
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PanterSC97, well stated and totally agreed.

Tigersharktwo, it not about keeping or maintaining a certain market that important to BE football schools as it is to maintaining certain revenue levels for both major revenue sports streams of mens football and mens basketball.

You are making way too many assumptions on the importance of keeping Philly market. Certainly would great to keep Philly if Villanova was able to move its football program up to 1A standars. That does not seem likely as Villanova is not making any plans with the new President to make this happen.

What is important factor that you keep overlooking is the need for a 9th football member. I am not talking about Army/Navy schedule alliance that may be of future benefit as well. This does not take the place of the need for 8 BCS conference games that count in rankings and BCS importance overall in conference review of maintaining BCS membership.

Regardless if you want to admit or not, the Big East is at a big disadvantage over all other 5 BCS conferences that play minimum of 8 conference games and Pac 10 soon to play 9 conference games.

This leads back to PatherSC97 comments the BE needs to be able to adapt to changing environments especially concerning major revenue stream of football.

That is why it is important to get input from fans such as Syracuse and not necessarily your constant hype of Villanova moving up to 1A.

If the BE football schools can maintain current revenue levels without Philly and NYC markets, Villanova or St John's or for that matter Georgetown which is really a ACC market in DC will not be needed.

So again it not a matter of what you like or who you like and more about what you need. The Big East needs another football member and apparently the basketball schools did not want to split into a true Gavitt plan that would have allowed the BE football schools to add a 9th all sports member.

I can tell this much, the BE can not afford to lose BCS membership at any price. All the basketball revenue possible with 16 members will not make up for any lose of BCS.

The BE forced to play 5 OOC games compared to 4 OOC games by the other BCS conference clearly puts the BE at a big disadvantage.

You and the BE coach you meet with a lunch apparently do not see or want to face the facts. MT has commented on this many many times of importance of winning OOC games.

You don't have to be in the BE region to understand how the BCS will look at a conference from top to buttom to see if BCS automatic bid is justified. One of the most important factors will be OOC performance.

It does not take a rocket scientist to know that 4 OOC games are less risk than 5 OOC games.

It does not take a rocket scientist to know that revenue is what is driving all conference alignments.

So, the Big East is clearly at a cross roads and split is apparently inevitable due to the fact that basketball would appear to not lose revenue without the large eastern TV markets and football needs a minimum of 9 conference teams.

I dont see how the BE has a choice. Split into true Gavitt divisions or split in the true BABE sense.

My gut feeling tells me that BABE is more practical and the only possible solution to the current problems.

Once again its not you or I Tigershartktwo that will make future decisions for the Big East football schools. The way I see it will be the ability to maintain BCS that will dictate those decisions. It will not be the coaches or the AD and will be the decision of the 8 football Presidents. MY guess it that revenue to them will be the bottom line of what direction those Presidents takes on future conference alignments.

The same argument were made that BC and Syracuse would not go to the ACC because of importance of eastern markets and old established rivalries. We all know for sure that revenue won out easy on that decison and will do so again.

Please stop promoting Villanova to move up to 1A until the President of the school comes out in public that he actively looking into this.

Otherwise, your post are based on opinions only and without facts.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:05 pm 
Interesting commentaries.
If Notre Dame could join a split away BE football contingent and negotiate to maintain their special TV contract to a major degree, that could be a workable arrangement and positive for the schools involved. However, Notre Dame will not even do that.
One way Notre Dame may end up relinquishing future lucrative contracts independently, is for them to have a string of losing seasons and be shut out in being a BCS pick or chosen for other major bowls. Ironically, Notre Dame joining a football conference hinges on them having a long run of bad luck. What is happening this year, with mostly winning, and having very entertaining games with named opponents, are factors working contrary for them moving to a conference. In any other case, a school being picked for a major conference would be based on success, not difficult times. This could be a factor, for example, why the ACC did not seek to add Rutgers.
Many of us are suggesting scenarios intending, whereby the Big East is ENHANCED and SOLIDIFIED. Though the models vary wildly in some regards, there is not a perfect design given the circumstances. In the end, whatever happens, I doubt it will be radical. Given the schools involved, the politics, and the history of the Big East, I expect changes will be practical, modest, and conducted to the extent to maintain a degree of continuity and the interests already held. It could though, have some strange dimensions to it as the situation currently does.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:58 am 
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Quote:
Interesting commentaries. If Notre Dame could join a split away BE football contingent and negotiate to maintain their special TV contract to a major degree, that could be a workable arrangement and positive for the schools involved. However, Notre Dame will not even do that.


We don't know that yet. Alot of people are guessing what ND will do in the event of a split. They might go with the BB onlies or with the all sports conference. Who knows? I imagine that the FB schools will offer the same deal to ND they have now in the BABE (bowl deals in exchange to guarenteed games in FB -

The one thing we know for sure is that ND was given the option to join the BE before the ACC teams left and obviously did not.


Quote:

One way Notre Dame may end up relinquishing future lucrative contracts independently, is for them to have a string of losing seasons and be shut out in being a BCS pick or chosen for other major bowls. Ironically, Notre Dame joining a football conference hinges on them having a long run of bad luck. What is happening this year, with mostly winning, and having very entertaining games with named opponents, are factors working contrary for them moving to a conference. In any other case, a school being picked for a major conference would be based on success, not difficult times. This could be a factor, for example, why the ACC did not seek to add Rutgers.


Remember that BC wasn't exactly a 'great' FB school either. I think since 1991 - the beggining of BE play - that BC NEVER finished in the top3 until 2004!! They were a mediocre FB program at best.

BC was taken for many reasons including academics, private school, and the strength of the overall athletics program. However, one of the key factors for BC was that BC is the ONLY program in Boston - outside of some ND fans. The New York market is very fragmented between PSU, ND, BE, Big10, and ACC teams. If RU could deliver the NYC market, I am sure they would have been taken in a heartbeat. JMO.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:20 am 
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Let Notre Dame enter the Big East for football in the future (although they are in the Big East for all sports since the 1995-96 season) and the Irish may still be in the BCS picture.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:32 am 
PantherSC97, I do not disagree with much of what you said. Some good points were conveyed. The BC move to the ACC was initially part of the Miami-'Cuse-BC package that got stalled and refined i. e. "the Virginia vote". While BC was not a particular, dominant fb power, they won enough and do have that successful "all sports" display as you noted.
The ACC did have Duke and Wake in mind as to expansion, and was indeed attracted to the private academic type in addition to the seldom spoken desire to stretch along the entire east coast and land a market such as Boston (in part) in the process.
If the matter was simply footprint geography, West Virginia or Temple would have been obvious choices. If it was a matter of fan support and football enthusiasm, West Virginia offered the most, and had natural rivalries with Maryland, VA, and VPI.
The Rutgers example was used in that their location and academics would have fit ACC desires, but apparently their fb tradition was suspect, and/or the school did not project the necessary political vibes.
Frankly, if I was the ruling wizard in fantasy land, I would have said at the time, OK---Miami is yours, VPI is yours, and if you get a third from the BE and must have 12 and a northeast school, then Temple is yours too!
Contrary to Temple's dismal fb only BE days, the ACC would have given them the means to develop in fb. It may would take five to seven years, but that would be price for the raid ;D (a reward for due expansion, a challenge for raiding the BE and going into the heart of their turf), and it would be a completely contiguous conference with a northeast school in its domain.
I believe, in the total picture of things for the long-term, BC's departure from the BE was a bigger blow than Miami and VPI leaving.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:52 am 
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D&C,

I agree with you about BC's exit being a bigger loss than that of Va Tech, but not that of Miami. BC & Miami sewed up the entire length of the East Coast for the ACC and pushed the BE's sphere of influence inland. I would rather have seen WV instead of BC; that would have left the BE with New England and regionalized the ACC in the Southeast. I think that CFB is well served by having a number of strong regional conferences with local rivalries within them.


Last edited by westwolf on Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:02 pm 
Good point on the coastal matter and pushing inland, Westwolf. Even though Miami was lost by the BE, they still moved to keep a Florida presence with USF. Though not quite the same, some of the purpose is intact. Using the same logic, some may wonder why not East Carolina as the new VPI ;).
It would be interesting to see how long USF remains in the BE if the BCS criteria radically changes in the future and conference structures are thus impacted.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:28 pm 
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Where would USF go?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:30 pm 
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Just for kicks, it's time to restate one of the dopey little ideas I have... and, what the heck, I'll even throw Villanova in the FB mix for good measure.

INLAND DIVISION

Cincinnati
Louisville
Notre Dame
Pittsburgh
West Virginia

COAST DIVISION

Connecticut
Rutgers
South Florida
Syracuse
Villanova

Obviously, the division names and a couple schools can be changed.

Also, only the four in-division games count towards the "championship game." Also, the championship game is NOT a 13th game allowed to conferences that have 12 teams, therefore there will probably be little "bowl games" played by the non-winners in each division and scheduled by draw... unless they stupidly decide 11 is enough games to play. The "little bowl games" are definitely why this plan is dopey... but it allows Notre Dame to not be tied to more than 4 conference games, and the rest of the BE teams can play across divisions to fill out their schedule anyway.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:23 pm 
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Westwolf, I agree, however, the BE can get back New England with UMass regardless of what Tigersharktwo thinks about the current UMass market.

A UConn/UMass matchup in football when both teams are playing good football would generate as much interest in New England as BC playing most ACC schools.

The problem in UMass sports is not at the interest level as UConn due to so many pro sports statewide in Massachussets. This could prevent UMass from gaining the necessary funding to move up to 1A.

Dognthings, I dont get your logic on South Florida. Even if the Big East lost BCS where would South Florida go to come close to what the Big East has to offer. Remember that South Florida was in Conf USA for basketball only at first and now is the best basketball conference in the country. Would you pick that over Conf Usa or Sun Belt? At least WVU, Louisville, and UConn will have sellouts for most home football games.

There is a reason for pecking order or higher profile conferences that set them apart and it has a lot to do with home much budget the athetic programs have to work with. BCS only makes up 15 million of the Big East budgets there is a lot of money made in TV and potential for much more in the future compared to mid major confereneces.

I think Central Florida would jump at the change to join the BE in the future with or without BCS as well as Memphis.

Simply because the eastern teams will have better chance of reaching a BCS bowl and will be big time in basketball.

There is a huge reason that Pitt and WVU never considered the advancements of Conf USA when Army was living to bring that conference to 12. If you think about, that alignment would have included TCU along with Louisville, WVU and improving South Florida.

Basketball will always be one of the two major sports the Big East will excel in regardeless if football schools remain or part ways.

If you need to play in championship game, the Big East would for the most part be better suited to have close by teams for attendance.

North: UMass, UConn, Syracuse, Pitt, Rutgers, Villanova

South: Louisville, Cincinnati, WVU, South Florida, St Johns/Army, Georgetown/Navy

This idea is very old on this board however continues ot have good benefits if you want to maintain the large eastern tv markets for basketball and have a championship game in football.

The only hole in this idea is requirements of UMass and Villanova to move up to 1A. This may not be as big of issue in the future as 1A requirements are not that much different that 1AA.

The other hole is having St Johns, Georgetown willing to break away from a potential all basketball league and take risk of being only two schools not playing major football.

The reason I dont promote this idea much any more is not sure there is enought interest to make it happen.

I think a 10 all sports conference adding Memphis and Central Fl may be just as good in the longer term.

Since this is a Syracuse thread, Syracuse fans may favor keeping the important eastern basketball schools.







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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:41 pm 

Quote:
Where would USF go?


Oh, I would not call that a prediction. Gezzz, to comment further would open all kinds of tangents not intended. However, just a short synopsis here. Suppose there was a split/another realignment in C-USA and a version of the Old Southwest emerges (not that USF would move there) with a revised southeastern counterpart; and, all this is coupled with a major revision/access change with the BCS whereby USF would have the opportunity to join a more southern based conference that would have equitable BCS access to what the split out-revamped BE would have at the same future time. The BE structure would have other changes involved; be it Notre Dame interfacing, Army and Navy being embraced, or something else unpredictable. It would almost be something parallel to the Miami transition to the ACC that had occurred, but involving a different (new) conference, but perhaps similar motives. OK, I admit all this is hypothetical and not probable in the foreseeable future, but if cards fell a certain way, it is theoretically possible.
Forget the confusion I just presented. The point is, many of us are assuming if there is a BE split, "all" the current BE fb "8" will be hanging together. However, suppose the Big10 DID decide to add another, Notre Dame or not, or there is subsequent changes in the Big12 and a ripple effect commences. There are scenarios whereby the BE fb "8" could be cherry picked by at least one, maybe two. Again, totally speculative.


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