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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:41 pm 
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BE MB thread(previously posted in another thread)discussing Boston Globe article regarding ND FB Independence at http://ncaabbs.com/showthread.php?tid=432120


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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 9:52 am 
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Blog article with comments from Father Jenkins regarding Notre Dame conference membership situation at http://chronicle.com/blogPost/To-Join-o ... oin-/23710


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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 10:43 am 
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The arguments and appeasement of the whiners at Notre Dame has gotten to be utterly silly, and totally ignorant of the decline of their program....

"We don't want to become 'regionalized'."

Let's examine that... EVERY YEAR, Notre Dame plays Purdue, Michigan, and Michigan State....
(Big Ten schools, clearly from their 'region')
More often than not, they play Penn State and / or Pitt (PSU already a Big Ten member, Pitt looking to be part of the upcoming expansion).
If the Big Ten goes to 8 conference games + 4 OOC games, how is that limiting ? Notre Dame can play USC, Navy, and two other "national opponenets" of their choosing.
If the Big Ten were to go to 16 (two 8-team divisions spanning Nebraska or Missouri to New Jersey) and required 9 conf. games (7 intra-division + 2 of the 8 inter-division), they are playing 9 opponents from the northeast to the mid-west.
This "region" is huge, and includes their traditional recruiting grounds.

Notre Dame is in a conference for all other sports. The Big East for 'Olympic Sports', the CCHA for Hockey.
These conferences are 'regional'. So what's the problem here ?

If the landscape evolves into 4 16-team superconference, and Notre Dame is on the outside looking in, they have sealed their fate. They have made themselves irrelevant on the national scene. They will have nothing to offer to prime recruiting targets, who want to be able to pursue a national championship.
It would be silly to effectively kill their program, all in the interest of maintaining their precious independence....


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 9:10 am 
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tute79 wrote:
The arguments and appeasement of the whiners at Notre Dame has gotten to be utterly silly, and totally ignorant of the decline of their program....

"We don't want to become 'regionalized'."

Let's examine that... EVERY YEAR, Notre Dame plays Purdue, Michigan, and Michigan State....
(Big Ten schools, clearly from their 'region')
More often than not, they play Penn State and / or Pitt (PSU already a Big Ten member, Pitt looking to be part of the upcoming expansion).
If the Big Ten goes to 8 conference games + 4 OOC games, how is that limiting ? Notre Dame can play USC, Navy, and two other "national opponenets" of their choosing.
If the Big Ten were to go to 16 (two 8-team divisions spanning Nebraska or Missouri to New Jersey) and required 9 conf. games (7 intra-division + 2 of the 8 inter-division), they are playing 9 opponents from the northeast to the mid-west.
This "region" is huge, and includes their traditional recruiting grounds.

Notre Dame is in a conference for all other sports. The Big East for 'Olympic Sports', the CCHA for Hockey.
These conferences are 'regional'. So what's the problem here ?

If the landscape evolves into 4 16-team superconference, and Notre Dame is on the outside looking in, they have sealed their fate. They have made themselves irrelevant on the national scene. They will have nothing to offer to prime recruiting targets, who want to be able to pursue a national championship.
It would be silly to effectively kill their program, all in the interest of maintaining their precious independence....



This is right on the money....ND has committed to playing a 7-4-1 schedule (7 home, 4 road and 1 neutral). Two of the four road games each year are going to be against schools from the group of Michigan, MSU, Purdue and Pitt....so the reality is, they want to play 9 of their 12 games a year in the midwest.....how is that different from being in the Big 10?

I love ND, but I really see the football program being in the same place the basketball program was in the mid 80's when they were the last major independent. Its time to move on.


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 6:00 pm 
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BE MB thread discussing above posted linked article with comments from Father Jenkins regarding ND FB conference situation at http://ncaabbs.com/showthread.php?tid=433813


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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 1:40 pm 
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This "national schedule" argument of Notre Dame is somewhat deceptive. Louisiana Tech, East Carolina, and a several others could say they have "national schedules" and present airline and bus travel miles to back it up, and have spent comparatively much less time in their home stadiums.


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 11:12 am 
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louisvillecard01 wrote:
This "national schedule" argument of Notre Dame is somewhat deceptive. Louisiana Tech, East Carolina, and a several others could say they have "national schedules" and present airline and bus travel miles to back it up, and have spent comparatively much less time in their home stadiums.


What's deceptive? :? :?:


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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 2:43 pm 
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Being in a conference, for some, does not negate some measure or opportunities of broad-based geographic scheduling. Some schools as a result of their conference placement resort to it more than they otherwise would seek.
Boise State has plans to open at Ole Miss and Virginia within the next two seasons.
Scheduling would be one of the keys for ND to join a conference in fb. ND apparently figures, for now, they can still schedule late season games with desirable opponents, with most fitting to maximize their preferred number for home games. The other scheduling issue would be for non-fb sports should the BE become split do to the B10 expansion.
As long as ND has their special BCS avenue and a NBC-type contract, there would have to be other incentives to join a fb included conference, scheduling foremost among them.
Will conference expansion remove any of the regulars on the ND schedule? If so, they may be confident they can replace as needed.


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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 5:24 pm 
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louisvillecard01 wrote:
Being in a conference, for some, does not negate some measure or opportunities of broad-based geographic scheduling. Some schools as a result of their conference placement resort to it more than they otherwise would seek.
Boise State has plans to open at Ole Miss and Virginia within the next two seasons.
Scheduling would be one of the keys for ND to join a conference in fb. ND apparently figures, for now, they can still schedule late season games with desirable opponents, with most fitting to maximize their preferred number for home games. The other scheduling issue would be for non-fb sports should the BE become split do to the B10 expansion.
As long as ND has their special BCS avenue and a NBC-type contract, there would have to be other incentives to join a fb included conference, scheduling foremost among them.
Will conference expansion remove any of the regulars on the ND schedule? If so, they may be confident they can replace as needed.


Card, you've put your finger on a key issue. Just look at ND's upcoming schedules:

2010 - They still have an open date on Nov 6. Utah is booked on Nov 13. Will they still be available in the future if they're playing a 9-game Pac Ten schedule? Oct/Nov schedule includes the likes of W. Michigan, Tulsa, Army, & Navy.

2011 - Still have an open date on Oct 8. Two BE opponents (UConn, USF) in Nov. Will these teams still be available if BE expands to 12 teams or if these teams join another league?

2012 - Still have open dates on Sep 29 & Oct 20. Stanford on Oct 13 is a question mark. Pitt, another BE team fills a Nov date.

2013 - Oct/Nov again heavily dependent on BE opponents (UConn, Pitt, Cincinnati) + Army & Navy. If BE expansion grabs the service academies, dates with them might become more scarce as well.

Well, you get the picture. They're already having trouble filling their dates. Things will only get worse.

The best scenario for them in a conference would be the Big Ten in a division that gives them a combination of Midwest & Northeastern opponents. They would then still have room in the schedule for Navy, USC, & another Western school. However, if they were to join the Big Ten with Rutgers as the only Eastern member, their ability to maintain a national schedule would be cooked.

Their next best conference option would be for them to hold the Big East together with a max of 7 or 8 games including Navy, still leaving them room for games in the West & Midwest.


Last edited by friarfan on Mon May 17, 2010 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 7:34 am 
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friarfan wrote:
However, if they were to join the Big Ten with Rutgers as the only Eatrn member, their ability to maintain a national schedule would be cooked.


This is exactly right. I think ND is no longer trying to decide whether or not to join the Big 10. I think what is going on now is some negotiation as far as who comes in with them and what the divisions look like. I think ND would like to see some combination of Pitt, Syracuse, Boston College as they have some tradition with these schools. I think the Big 10 is leaning towards Rutgers and UConn in an attempt to get into the NY media market. Whether or not ND joins is going to be decided by how much of what ND wants the Big 10 is willing to give.

Historically though, the Big 12 took Baylor in order to get Texas and Texas A&M....the ACC took Virginia Tech in order to get Miami. I think somehow this gets done. An expansion of Missouri, Nebraska, Notre Dame, Pitt and UConn might be a good compromise.


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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:00 am 
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Innocent Bystander wrote:
This is exactly right. I think ND is no longer trying to decide whether or not to join the Big 10. I think what is going on now is some negotiation as far as who comes in with them and what the divisions look like. I think ND would like to see some combination of Pitt, Syracuse, Boston College as they have some tradition with these schools. I think the Big 10 is leaning towards Rutgers and UConn in an attempt to get into the NY media market. Whether or not ND joins is going to be decided by how much of what ND wants the Big 10 is willing to give.

Historically though, the Big 12 took Baylor in order to get Texas and Texas A&M....the ACC took Virginia Tech in order to get Miami. I think somehow this gets done. An expansion of Missouri, Nebraska, Notre Dame, Pitt and UConn might be a good compromise.


You may be onto something, Bystander. If this is in fact what's going on, it is a very smart move by Notre Dame. They should get all such agreements for schedule & division hammered out & set in stone in advance.

BC, for example, failed to do its due diligence & got screwed going into the ACC. One of the big attractions for them was the continuation of a rivalry with Miami, going back to the Flutie days. After the fact, they were put in the opposite division from Miami, so they only get to play them every other year, which means a home game at Chestnut Hill once every 4 years. To make matters worse, the ACC decided not to split along geographic lines. So, BC not only got the expected increase in travel, they got the unexpected additional costs & logistical problems of being in a division that includes a couple of schools from the Deep south, Clemson & Florida State. Since joining the ACC, BC's home attendance has dropped substantially in both football & basketball. Besides the Miami rivalry in football, the only other games that matter to Boston fans are the Duke & UNC games for basketball, both of which are the only home games that sell out. So the final insult to them was to put them in the opposite division from those 2 as well. That means that they get those 2 sell outs in basketball only once every other year instead of annually. And oh, by the way, scheduling a football championship game in Florida for a conference that has a distance of 1500 miles between the 2 most distant members was insane. What students did they expect to make a weekend of it in Jacksonville a week before finals? BC doesn't travel well, but that decision made it impossible. Locating the game centrally in North Carolina would have made sense. Scheduling it at the home of the school with the best record would have been even better if they wanted to get a big crowd.


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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:15 am 
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There are 4 offers (Or offer like) out from the B10 to Nebraska,Missouri,Rutgers and ND.If ND does not go then B10 expands to 14 with Nebraska,Missouri and Rutgers.If ND goes the B10 goes to 16 with ND and sort of its choice either Pitt (the most likely) or Syracuse.The likelihood of the B10 taking BC as the 16 th school is not great.The B10 would have trouble taking 2 non AAU schools at once.

Also the BE non-football school are actively talking with Xavier,Dayton,Dusquene and St Joes about becomming members of altered BE.


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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 1:19 pm 
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ctx48c wrote:
There are 4 offers (Or offer like) out from the B10 to Nebraska,Missouri,Rutgers and ND.If ND does not go then B10 expands to 14 with Nebraska,Missouri and Rutgers.If ND goes the B10 goes to 16 with ND and sort of its choice either Pitt (the most likely) or Syracuse.The likelihood of the B10 taking BC as the 16 th school is not great.The B10 would have trouble taking 2 non AAU schools at once.

Also the BE non-football school are actively talking with Xavier,Dayton,Dusquene and St Joes about becomming members of altered BE.


I dont' fully buy Lenn Robins on the non-football intentions. There has been talk for a long time about potential non-football candidates and Xavier/Dayton have always topped the list. But Robbins use of the word "possibly" makes me feel it was a single source that didnt' give all that much information. Because if you're the Big East non-football schools, why would you pass on some better proven programs that make money and have TV viewers in favor of Duquesne and St Joes, especially since Villanova already has the Philly market. I just don't buy it until it happens. It makes no sense to add Duquesne and St. Joes to form a 12 team conference with a MUCH smaller TV contract.

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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:00 pm 
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If the BE Bball goes to 12 Xavier, Dayton, St.Louis, UMass greater than Xavier, Dayton, Duquesne, St.Joesph's. If Temple is around and for some reason Nova would want a 2nd Philly school Temple would be the one. I can't see how Nova would want to compete for players with another Philly school in Conf. I'd rather get back into Mass than get back into Pitt. But if it's all Private you could take Duquesne. There has to be better options though.

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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:58 pm 
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ctx48c wrote:
There are 4 offers (Or offer like) out from the B10 to Nebraska,Missouri,Rutgers and ND.If ND does not go then B10 expands to 14 with Nebraska,Missouri and Rutgers.If ND goes the B10 goes to 16 with ND and sort of its choice either Pitt (the most likely) or Syracuse.The likelihood of the B10 taking BC as the 16 th school is not great.The B10 would have trouble taking 2 non AAU schools at once.


That's not the way I see it. Nebraska is far from a done deal. I expect that they're just as much up in the air as ND.

Regardless, every indication has been that the Big Ten is going to 16 one way or another. All of the additions may not come this year. It may take another year to put it all together, but I'll be shocked if they stop at 14.

I'm sure that the Big Ten will be happy to take BC is that's what it takes to get Notre Dame. However, I doubt it will come to that.

Why would Pitt be ND's most likely choice for #16. Sure, they have a history of playing them, but they don't have the sort of relationship with Pitt that they have with Navy. They will do what's best for Notre Dame - as anyone else would do in the same situation. The reason for their fondness for playing Pitt is that it gives them inroads into recruiting PA. With Penn State already in the Big Ten, Pitt would become redundant & I suspect that their preference woudl come from among Syracuse, BC, & UConn, i.e. someone who would get them into a differen trecruiting area & who would give them a game that would be accessible to their Eastern alumni every other year.


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