Regarding the voting scenario, this refers to the NCAA rules regarding continuance & dissolution of conferences. The only options for conference members interested in realigning a conference is to leave; they can't expel fellow conference members. A conference must have 6 continuing members to remain a conference. If the football members could have convinced Notre Dame to jon them, that would have left only 5 non-football members. By NCAA rule, the conference would have been formally dissolved, each school would have kept its NCAA basketball credits, & the Big East name would have been up for grabs. No one would have been entitled to an automatic bid because all members would have been starting from scratch either as independents, as members of a new conference, or as members of some existing conference that they might have joined. In the case of a new conference, they would have been required to required to fulfill the NCAA waiting period before they could qualify for an automatic bid. The only way that anyone could have kept an auto bid was for the Big East or a 6+ team remnant of it to have remained intact.
I was under the impression that if the BE FB6 split (Pitt, SU, WVu, RU, UConn, and BC) that they would have kept the BE name, credits, etc. Also, that something would have been worked out with the 'BB' schools.
Nope. Technically it wouldn't have been a split. somebody would have been leaving & it would have been the football schools. Everything thet the conference owned would have stayed behind. I suppose that they could have initiated negotiations for the name of the non-football schools were willing, but the latter would not have been required to do that.
[quote}Since the FB schools didn't have the votes, then they would have to officially dissolve from the conference and then lose what I had mentioned in the previous post.[/quote]
No. Best case scenario for the football schools would have been to dissolve the conference & that would have been possibly only
if they did
have the votes. Since the football schools would have been the ones leaving, the conference would only have been dissolved if there weren't enough members left behind to keep the conference going. The magic number for that was 6, i.e. the 5 non-football schools + Notre Dame.
However, you can actually eject a member from a conference but I do not know what the voting rules for that are but I would assume it is more than just a simple majority.
Each conference has its own rules about this in its by-laws. In some cases, a member cannot be ejected. In most cases it's under highly restrictive & very limited circumstances. It can't be done frivolously. There's no way that the football schools could have gotten away with ejecting 5 or 6 members. I doubt that they would have had cause to expel even one.
Another point is that the new conference could petition the NCAA to waive the 'auto-bid' time. It is not known for sure whether it would have been waived becuase I remember that the MWC or another conference had problems with the NCAA about such a situation (my memory is fuzzy on the conference)???
Yes, they could have. However, it is very unlikely that the NCAA would have granted it once BC left. They only had 5 members who had previously competed together. The difference with the MWC is that when the WAC split, the new MWC had 8 members who had recently been competing against each other & at least 6 of them had been competing together for many, many years - well above the minimum requirement. Six is the magic number.
Notre Dame was a swing vote only in the eyes of those who those who held out hope at the time that ND would join the football members - an unrealistic hope as it turns out. But how does that make ND any more responsible for the outcome than any of the other 5 members who didn't want to leave? Why not blame Villanova or Georgetown who could have decided to upgrade their football programs to I-A & join the football schools? Why not St. John's who could have asked to join as a non-football program & bring the huge NYC market? The fact is that all members based their decisions on their own self-interest. When all was said & done, there were 6 who wanted to leave & 6 who wanted to remain as the Big East. ND had never been a football member & was under no obligation to join the others.
Once the 6 non-football members (including ND, a BE non-footballer) decided to stay put, then the conference met NCAA requirements to continue as a conference, keep its name, keep all the bb credits, & keep the automatic bid. This means that the football schools had to decide if they wanted to leave these things behind. They would also have faced exit payments.
However, this was not the monstrous decision that it was made out to be. It was no different a decision than the one that was faced by Miami, Virginia Tech, & BC when they defected to the ACC; or the CUSA schools when they defected their conference & joined the Big East; or Arkansas when it left the Southwest Conference to join the SEC. The list goes on. Schools who see a brighter future somewhere else take the hit & move on. So, why weren't the football schools willing to do this?
I think that as much as anything else what held the football schools back was the uncertain future ot their BCS bid. They didn't want to leave the Big East to become CUSA-East. The didn't get assurances about their BCS bid until 2004 - 6 months after their summer of pain when these decisions were being made. They knew that they had big time basketball in the Big East with a big time tournament at Madison Square Garden. They knew they would have a big time basketball contract regardless of the future of football. They weren't willing to break this up for what might prove to be an unsuccessful flyer on football. They were also operating in crisis mode under duress. I don't think they were willing to make snnap judgments about their long term future. The new 16-team Big East bought them time, which is what they needed to sort things out.
The bottom line is that Notre Dame was never in a position to "save" the Big East because the football schools were never interested in that proposition. It was the football schools who wanted to destroy the Big East as we had known it & replace it with something else. Nothing wrong with that, but it's important to be clear about it. They were looking to destroy something & ND was looking to preserve something. Schools like West Virginia & Rutgers were attempting to hijack something that had been built by schools like Providence, St. John's, Seton Hall, & Gerogetown. How are these football schools made to seem the victims?
I should have been more clear in that 'deciding vote' meaning that it was not 100% clear which direction ND wanted the conference to go which is why I (and others) say that ND was the deciding factor. You are correct to point out that any of the non-1A FB schools could also be deemed as a deciding vote but it was assumed that they aligned themselves with the other non-1A FB schools.
Just so I am clear - I am certainly one of those people who think ND should do what they want to do - in that they shouldn't join a conference if they don't want to. I really don't ahve a problem with it as my school (Pitt) was an indy in FB for a LONG time but sought conference membership for a variety of reasons.
I am not trying to portray the FB schools as the 'victims' - only to show that at the time of the aCC raid in 2003 that the FB schools thought it would be in their best interests to finally forge their own destiny. They obviously didn't think the financial penalties were worth it at the time (and I agree with them). Certainly, it will be intersting to see what happens in 2010 (the earliest they can split) - although others think the earliest would realistically be 2012 - unless a BCS school wants to join.
Another scenerio would ahve been what would the BE and CUSA looked today if thet ACC went ahead and added SU, BC, and Miami in June 2003- but that is for another topic.
Panther97, sorry about the Big East football schools as victims comment. I got carried away. It certainly wasn't directed at anything you said & I didn't mean to imply that you thought they were..