Lash, Panther, Friarfan, Innocent, Quinn, etc.:

Good discussion; guess there is not too much to chat about these days in terms of conference realignment--at least on the big-time scale.

Lash, you did emphasize a point that I strongly concur with: the Big East is already in the BCS! They reached it! Now the challenge is to maintain and secure it. It is no secret there are some others, i. e. MWC, WAC, CUSA saying---why not us too? In this regard, the Big East certainly wants to have the design and members to fend off detractors. Be assured, certain quarters will site markets, attendance figures, W-L records, or whatever they can to show at least they are approaching parity, if not elements of superiority. It is guaranteed, when money and prestige are involved.

I do see Friar's point on the stabilization factor. But of course, being too conservative can be a risk as well, pending trends and developments. I can understand Panther's pragmatic approach and well as L'ville's clean-sweep, bye-bye Notre Dame stance.

I am under the impression the Big East is not going to add #17 even though the fb side has a bit of unbalanced scheduling and has fewer numbers for fb than their fellow BCS conferences. They may change this if complaints outside the BCS grow. A couple or more of sub-par BCS representatives for bowls could be the trigger. However, the last few years, the BE has been blessed, or lucky to some, to field very respectable competitors.

It boils down to a split or not in 2010 or soon after, perhaps. Then, there will be the additions. They will be prudent and have expansion candidates in mind. Whom they will be, shall be among the names often discussed. But the "deciders" can be a bit fickle as well, so it may not be exactly what some of us may think.

Hi, Lash, I hope that things are well in your neck of the woods.

Maybe I'm just getting cynical or pessimistic in my old age, but I think that prospects for the Big East are overrated. There are limitations that they have to fight due to the lack of tradition at many of the schools & limited markets at some.

My comment about the presidents was spurred mainly by criticism that I hear here in Connecticut about the announcement this week of UConn's contract with Notre Dame. Naturally the local populace wanted home & home - or at least something in there for a game in Connecticut. I think that if the school's administration could have gotten it, they would have. People then accuse UConn of bending over to be ND's butt boy.

This is what I mean about fans being unrealistic & dismissive of the presidents (administration, AD, etc.). No one would like home & home more than they would. But would a realistic person ever trade a game with Notre Dame for a game with Temple or Buffalo of some other lower level school? Because that's what it would mean. Although UConn's home games are not being played in the home state, neither the Jersey Meadowlands or Foxboro, MA are very far & many CT Yankees make that drive all the time to attend Pats', Giants', or Jets' games. UConn will have the same control of the tickets as any home team would. It's a huge boost in ticket sales because of the greater capacity of these stadiums over the 40,000 in East Hartford. So, what's the problem?

Add to this the fact that when teams do settle for lesser games to fill out the schedule, they are contracting with teams who are only doing it for the money. If they get a better deal, they bail at the last minute for the buy-out fee. UCF & Buffalo are among the many who have done this in recent years. UConn can trust that Notre Dame will not bail on them. However, they could not trust that a lesser school would because they are not able to pay as much money for these games as bigger schools will.

The president, AD, etc. know all this. The fans either don't or don't bother to think about it. They only think about their wounded pride. They dont't stop to think that 10 years of Notre Dame on their schedule guaranteed is a huge boost for this program - especially in this part of the country. Now they just have to go out & win the games.

I think that you make agood points about the need for this conference to take bold action with an eye to the future. Too much looking in the rear view mirror doesn't tell you where you are going - only where you have been. I've long been an advocate of the Big East making a spot for UMass & guaranteeing that spot if UMass makes the upgrade - the same way they did for UConn. The Big East badly needs members with a commanding state-wide presence. UMass has that potential & is one of the few such programs that are still available - especially in a relatively large state. They have made reasonable progress with their program although they still need to do much more. I think that a conditional guarantee from the Big East would give them the boost to get them over the top in terms of their ability to make the additional progress required.

The addition of UMass is really all that this conference needs after the inevitable & highly desirable split. A 9-member conference is the right size for a conference & there is no reason to expand beyond that unless the benefits to the conference are overwhelmingly positive. Theonly program on the horizon that has anything remotely close to that right now is Memphis & that would only be for their basketball program. If a Break Away Big East Football feels that it needs to stengthen football, then Memphis would be the way to go. Otherwise there is no one else out there who can help them in the foreseeable future.

Again, all the best for you & yours. I'm having fun following the primaries - almost like another sports season. I was able to get up to New Hampshire to see candidates from both parties & to rub elbows with people on the street & to guage how they were enjoying the experience. I met a number of candidates. I was even interviewed by Ebony magazine at an Obama event. My biggest disappointment was not being able to get to see the unveiling of the "Huckaburger" at one of the local restaurants. My biggest surprise was to see a group of Hassidic Jews up from New York holding an anti-Zionist rally to demonstrate for humane treatment of the Palestinians & against the state of Israel. You read that correctly - anti-Zionist Jews against Israel! It's amazing to see all of the groups that come out to be heard in a primary like that. Obama played to enormous overflow crowds, but then lost the primary. Go figure. He did the dame here a couple of weeks later. filled the Hartford Civic Center with 17,000 & they were turning people away. He won Connecticut. Anyway you look at it, this is an historic election with interesting & surprising races in both parties and likable candidates on both sides of the aisle.

Cheers,
Bill

..."did the dame"? Confused here -- is that suppose to be synthesized statement in your tributes to Notre "Dame", or a gender slang remark about Hillary Clinton?

Friarfan, interesting year for politics. Did your interview with Ebony make the magazine? Our Arizona Governor endorsed Obama just to see the state vote decided in Clinton's favor. It would be interesting to see how Clinton with Obama as the running mate would do in the national elections this fall. Speaking of change this would be a lot for the country to embrace at the same time.

Maybe an easier change would be to convince the politics of the Big East to make some much needed alignment improvements.

I agree on UMass as the best non BCS school in the country with so much potential. Having the backing of a large populated state can be very beneficial in the future.

I would like at minimum to see the Big East football schools in one division and the non playing Big East football schools in another division.

The politics of the Big East will probably prevent this from taking place as some schools would want to pick which division and not let football be the deciding factor.

I agree as well on the UConn deal with Notre Dame to play football is not bad. It is not like they are playing alll 10 games in South Bend.

Speaking of UConn, the coach wants a 9th football school. It is very difficult to win a conference title when you have even number of home and away games. It is more difficult when you only get 3 home games and have to play four away games to win a title.

Do you think UConn would support UMass as the 9th football school?

Lash, there would be some resistance here to a UMass membership just as there was resistance from BC to UConn football. Both reflect insecure programs that are threatened by nearby competition. By & large, I think that most UConn fans would embrace the idea. Most remember their rivalry with UMass from the old days fondly.

Easter college sports has been going through a transformation that has taken a long time with many twists & turns. I won't bore anyone with the details, but I'll just point to UConn as an example. Within the past decade they have won 2 NCAA basketball championships & a Big East football championships. Amazing! Just a decade ago UConn didn't even have a IA football program of any sort - much less a BCS program - nor had they ever been to a Final Four - much less a national championship. The face of Eastern college sports is being remade as we speak . . . but it will take time.

UMass is the next logical candidate in my mind, And a step on the road to a true major conference that can stand on par with the 5 other major conferences in the country. What will that mean?

To me, it means a group of schools that can command state-wide attention in a core group of major states. That's the formula for every other major conference. The only opportunities for this are New York & Massachusetts. I think that the Big East football schools need to recognize this is they don't already. They should have a blueprint for growth after a split.

Step One is the addition of UMass - but only after UMass meets certain criteria.

Step Two is the addition of two SUNY campuses - again only upon the accomplishments of specified criteria. I would prefer to see Stony Brook & albany because these are the 2 that are closest to where most of the people in the state live & because Syracuse has the rest of the state locked up.

Step Three would be the addition of a 12th member. Notre Dame is ideal but unlikely to say the least. Memphis would bring good basketball but would be geographically incompatible. Temple offers some surprising potential. That university has been growing rapidly & has been upgrading facilities. My choice would be Central Florida because they offer a travel partner & local rival for USF much like the Pac Ten model. Once the Big East made the decision to go to Florida, I think that they have to cement that which strengthens their presence in the state.

It's obvious that the SUNY school are nowhere near ready for this level of competition. But it is equally obvious to me that they are the only logical choices. Therefore I think that the Big East must go slow with expansion & save spots for them much as the Big Ten has held a spot for Notre Dame for almost 20 years. If the Big Ten can wait that long for the right member, the Big East can certainly do the same.

However, I don't think that the Big East should wait 20 years to act on the SUNY schools. I think that they should actively recruit them & should publicize this heavily in New York. This would be necessary to build the political will that would be required for such an upgrade. I believe that with Big East membership guaranteed, UMass, & SUNY Albany & Stony Brook could all accompish the needed upgrades in time.

With this membership, the Big East would be built around the flagship universities of New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, & Connecticut with secondary state universities from Pennsylvania, Ohio, Kentucky, & Florida. This is a configuration that would match up against almost any conference in the country. Every member would have a nearby rival & travel partner. If the Big East avoids unnecessary rapid expansion, they can accomplish this & it would make them a major player in the world of college sports.

I this election campaign has shown us anything, it's that the unexpected can happen.

Cheers,
Bill

Friarfan, you make an excellent point on benefits of holding open the 11 and 12 for the SUNY schools. Why have the SUNY schools avoided upgrading to 1A? If any of the SUNY schools were south of the Mason Dixon line they most likely would have been playing major college football already.

I agree with more expansion in Florida and South Florida really could use a travel partner. UCF is already a big rival game for South Florida and the school has made the necessary upgrades with facilities.

UMass is an obvious choice if the school makes the commitment to upgrade.

The major benefit for UConn was having full membership in all sports. It may have been more easy to gain support knowing the school had full membership and football could join after the correct upgrades were taken to move to the Bowl Championship Division.

If the football schools are serious on making this happen in the future, they would insist or better stated demand a split by division.

Each division could expand and take on members that served the needs of those schools. Revenue should be equally split between both groups with the exception of football revenue.

The would pave the way for the football schools to get to the first milestone of 9 football members. The basketball schools would not be penalized by having revenue split 50/50. The 50 share for basketball would be split by only 8 members. The 50 share for football schools would be split with 9 members. This could be off set by having one more home conference game each year and keeping more revenue in the conference by playing 3 OOC versed 4 OOC football games required with the current 8 members.

Central Florida is ready and could come on board in the split division format.

Once UMass is ready to upgrade and assuming the football schools wanted a 10th football member to eventually reach the goal of 12 for a football championship game, the 50 share of basketball revenue would be split by 10 members.

When the time has come to reach 12, the same format could be used and 50 share for basketball split 12 ways.

This method would prevent the basketball schools from paying for the need of additional football schools.

If desired both division of schools could use the Big East name forever using the revenue sharing format.

I realize there are other logistics issues with number of TV appearances and cross over games, however, both groups would only pay for what they need concerning membership expansion.

This is the only sensible approach to the current alignment and allow football to grow in the Big East.

It may be a noble or wishing thinking to believe that scheduling all teams to play one another every year in basketball will resolve all your issues.

The problem in the current Big East; football issues just will not go away and we will always keep hearing of the need for a 9th football school until the Big East expands again.

From the horse's mouth?
Playing the "you are the BE Commish game " from the BE MB at http://ncaabbs.com/showthread.php?tid=300229

These Army/Navy partial scheduling keeps popping up now and then as a solution to Big East fb regular opponents. From what I gather, the incentives, as limited as they are, slant toward the BE. It would offer BE schools one less opponent they have to search for each year's scheduling, but going beyond that is a stretch.
Army/Navy appear satisfied to be independent in fb and apparently are not too worried about finding opponents. Both tend to want to schedule from across the country, often picking some unique schools to play that satisfy their scheduling objectives.
With their recruiting uniqueness and style of play, it can be understood they may not want to be locked into a fb conference with schools having more flexible recruiting options and less regimentation.
What real choices are there for the Big East, if they seek expansion, other than some CUSA-East schools?
MAC schools are in the footprint, but facilities and fan support are not very strong. Buffalo or Ohio have fine names, for example, but major upgrades would be required.
Temple would be plausible, if they continue to improve and their fans show. Lincoln Financial Field is an excellent site, if it could get half-way filled or better.
Notre Dame? They prefer being part of the problem rather than the solution. Forget about them for Big East football unless the Big Ten shuts-off the open invitation; and even then, probably still a dream.
The Sunbelt appears not to have anyone with all dimensions necessary for BCS status.
FCS schools that perhaps could move up, i.e. types such as UMASS and Delaware, may lack the drive and the commitment to resources. It is expensive, and incentives must be hanging there for it to be even considered.
Schools in other BCS conferences are not going to shift to the BE, which is viewed as a more fluid and usually a less profitable situation.
Doing something with Mountain West types creates a geographic hurdle with travel issues, no natural rivalries, and looks like a very forced marriage.
Outside of East Carolina, UCF, and perhaps Memphis, I do not see anything really plausible. Maybe among Southern Miss, Marshall, Tulane, or UAB in a stretch, and in combination with others.
Western USA schools are really too far away, defies any comprehension as to what "east" means; and may be looking toward a future "southwest" design.
East Carolina, UCF, Memphis, and Temple (one day possibly), may not look pretty to the Big East, but it's hard to see what else is realistic and could minimally meet the needs. They are also the schools that really want to be a part of the BE, and it's nice to have those who really want to join and willing to do what they can to be attractive.

sec03 -

I think you've got a pretty good handle on the candidates.
So the Big East could split and then expand to 9, 10 or 12. 11 is just an unwieldy number.
That means adding 1, 2 or 4 schools. They could do 2 initially, and 2 later (to see which candidates emerge over another 5 years).


I don't see Notre Dame as part of the football picture. If they are going to join a conference, you'd have to think they'd like the money and exposure that the Big Ten can offer, and they have a standing invitation to join the Big Ten.


At the top of my list are: the same 3 as you have listed...

UCF (Orlando TV market, investment in new facilities, up-and-coming athletics, possible bowl tie-in, recruiting hot-bed for other BE schools)
Memphis (nice-size TV market, great basketball, possible Liberty Bowl tie-in, a bit west but who cares ?)
ECU (commitment to improving athletics, solid fan base, travel well, a natural to attend Meineke Bowl)

Next: none of these WOWs anybody right now, Temple has the most potential...

Temple (seem to be working at improving athletics, good basketball tradition, big Philly TV market)
SUNY - Buffalo (seem to be improving, decent TV market, sort-of a "long-term project")
Marshall (geographic fit, decent athletics, don't add a lot of TV sets that the BE doesn't already have with WVU).
Ohio U - (secondary flagship in football-crazy state, would need to step up their athletic budget, perhaps some overlap with Cincinnati).

Long-term: (if the BE chose to wait 10 years and these schools decided to upgrade from FCS football, there is a chance they could emerge)....
UMass (state flagship, although second fiddle to BC currently)
Delaware (state flagship)
UNCC (starting up football in 2013 ? they are certainly a "long-term project")
Villanova (an alternative to Temple for the Philly market, it would seem Temple is ahead of Villanova in their attempts to regain stature, and Temple is already in the FBS).

Would BC ever entertain coming back ? If things soured with the ACC, would the BE schools want to take them back ? This is a REAL long-shot. Financially they are doing well in the ACC, and that trumps the travel issues. Right now, other than Syracuse, Rutgers, and UConn, they'd have a pretty good haul to any of the BE football schools, so I'm not so sure that their travel would improve that dramatically.

Penn State - forget this - they are solidly settled in and integrated into the Big Ten. End of story.

I think that is a good read, tute. No program is going to leave the SEC or Big 10, nor would any ACC or Big 12 school leave - except for one of the aforementioned conferences. the rest is a scramble, and UCF would seem to fit the BE best.

tute, thank you for your reply.

While UNCC and Georgia State are anticipated upstarts for fb, they are years away from readiness to pursue any aspect of the upper echelon. Their potential attraction is being location; in two of the very largest cities of the southeast.

I tend to see Georgia Southern as very capable. The University currently has a study going, using a consulting firm, to seriously ponder the means to make the move.

Appalachian State is another possibility.

I see Georgia Southern and Appalachian State trumping GA State and UNCC even if the later are urban. Urban certainly contributes to student body size, but that alone does not translate into massive fans. Think....Temple, Houston, Rice, Tulane, etc.

Besides, Atlanta already has Georgia Tech downtown and Athens is an hour away.