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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:39 am 
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Honestly, unless you're a hockey fan---North Dakota brings little to any conference. Yeah, ND has seven hockey championships, but when there are maybe fifty D1 hockey teams--it's not as sexy as it sounds.

Have you ever Google mapped Grand Forks, ND? All you see is a giant train yard and a road sign on the outskirts that says "Canada 80 miles". In fact, the UND campus is so far north that it's 145 miles to Winnipeg, Manitoba versus 313 miles just to get down to the outskirts of Minneapolis.

When I think of the University of North Dakota--I consider them the UTPA of the North in regard to desired location. The Big Sky can keep them forever--no worries. Plus, no matter how much UND folks look past some of the Summit League schools--those institutions will grow in size, stature, and athletic facilities--while the University of North Dakota will ALWAYS be located in Grand Forks (I'm not even bringing up where there athletic programs are competitively right now--no reason to pile on).

On the other hand---glad to have NDSU in the Summit League (along with SDSU and USD). North Dakota State brings it obviously in basketball, their other Olympic sports, and for football (In the MFVC).

Maybe all of the Dakotas will be re-united eventually (along with UNO) in the same conference--but at that point I feel the eastern schools of the Summit will probably be in another conference.

University of North Dakota to the Summit League? Meh.

I would much rather see UMKC return, or a more geographically friendly urban school like UM - Saint Louis move up from D2, UALR as a travel partner for Oral Roberts, or Northern Kentucky slide over from the OVC. If Eastern Illinois could land their football program in the MVFC--then having them in the Summit League for all sports (Not just soccer and swimming/diving) would be pretty hot as well.

Yeah, IPFW (14,000) and IUPUI (27,000) still have more of a commuter style atmosphere (Even though both have 4 year medical schools and IUPUI has a law school located on campus) but in five years with additional growth, and a few quality seasons in men's basketball--things will eventually change due to their location in cities (IPFW and IUPUI have only been around for 50 years).

In the meantime, I would love to see all of the institutions of the Summit League improve competitively (current RPI - 16) and hopefully add another member in the spring to round out membership to ten---time will tell.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:20 am 
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Sub-Human wrote:
The idea that the University of South Dakota (or any of the Dakotas) is going to leave the Missouri Valley Football Conference to play in the Big Sky is far-fetched. Why, when you have a secure foothold in the Missouri Valley Football Conference, and as an institution you wish to also be a member eventually in the Missouri Valley (basketball) Conference would you decide to join the Big Sky so that you can play in Utah, Arizona, and Idaho?

The only way that the Dakotas would ever consider joining a league that large (13 members for football and 11 for basketball) would be if the Summit League were to implode. The Summit League currently sits at 8 (This will be 9 with Oral Roberts re-joining in 2014) members and allows South Dakota an easier path to an NCAA auto-bid by winning the basketball tournament in Sioux Falls through 2017 (which I think is about 60 miles from Vermillion where USD is located).

Are you telling me that you're going to leave a smaller Summit League (current conference RPI of 15 in basketball) to join a larger Big Sky Conference (current conference RPI of 23) with increased travel costs and 11 members scattered throughout the West when you want to be in a more regionalized league, especially when South Dakota already turned the Big Sky down in favor of a Summit/MVFC membership combo only 4 years ago?

Oral Roberts re-joining the Summit League just shored up the baseball auto-bid and also will give the Summit another boost to RPI next year. There are also rumors on other boards that "people in the know" say that the Summit League will be secure by spring time with the addition of other members--but who the new members will be is only speculation at this point.

Also, South Dakota would much rather be playing a regional football rival like UNI, plus Missouri State, and the Illinois Schools (not to mention SDSU and NDSU)---than 11 of the 13 schools in the Big Sky (except Montana and Montana State) which is what a good non-conference schedule is for.

I don't see it happening in the near future. The cons for South Dakota going to the Big Sky are more travel, more cost, and a larger (also less competitive) group of members to traverse for an NCAA bid in all sports except football--plus 11 far-flung institutions in the Big Sky versus 8 in the Summit in cities like Denver, Omaha, Indianapolis and their brethren SDSU and NDSU not too far down the road.


We were talking about San Diego not S.Dakota. That's why I said don't worry b/c they aren't going to add schollys. Or was there a reference to S.Dak a few posts earlier I wasn't looking. I thought IPFW was going to be added as the 10th member of the Horizon for a while b/c you have nice facilities, maybe if you make the tourney a time or 2 they'll take you in. Also thought the same about NKU. Belmont also who has done it but maybe the HL doesn't want to go that far south or Belmont is hoping for an A-10 invite once St.Louis and Dayton or Richmond or VCU go to the BE.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:19 am 
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Come to think of it Sub-Human, I believe that for UNO (Omaha) dropping football is the WORST sacrifice the school has ever made. It truly had a rich tradition in that sport. The Mavericks could have played football for the MVFC, along with the other 3 Dakota schools (minus UND).

And Fresno, no offense, but how would Midwestern U.S. mid-major conferences like the A-10 or the Summit or the Horizon would want a Southern school like Belmont? For what, to ruin their respective conference footprints geographically? But I do wish that USD (San Diego) could apply for scholarships to be another fb-only slot for the Big Sky. Plus, should the Summit plan to implode eventually in years to come, most of the eastern Midwest schools would be left open for the Horizon (which does have most of the former Summit/Mid-Con schools).

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:49 am 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
Come to think of it Sub-Human, I believe that for UNO (Omaha) dropping football is the WORST sacrifice the school has ever made. It truly had a rich tradition in that sport. The Mavericks could have played football for the MVFC, along with the other 3 Dakota schools (minus UND).

And Fresno, no offense, but how would Midwestern U.S. mid-major conferences like the A-10 or the Summit or the Horizon would want a Southern school like Belmont? For what, to ruin their respective conference footprints geographically? But I do wish that USD (San Diego) could apply for scholarships to be another fb-only slot for the Big Sky. Plus, should the Summit plan to implode eventually in years to come, most of the eastern Midwest schools would be left open for the Horizon (which does have most of the former Summit/Mid-Con schools).


They took Davidson who is atcually further South than Belmont and have St Louis who is further West than Belmont.

If St Louis and Richmond join the Big East I could see them replacing those schools with Belmont and one in Kentucky like Morehead St and having a nice Southern part of the league with Dayton, Davidson, VCU, GWU, GMU, and Duquesne.

Western Ohio/Western PA
KY/VA/DC(MD)
TN/NC

And that doesn't ruin their footprint, it actually helps clarify it from the unnatural looking way it was/is w/ StL.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:21 pm 
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Fresno St. Alum,

Oops---you're exactly right....taking a few more seconds to re-read I see now that people were referring to San Diego and not South Dakota (that never happens with the same abbreviations...lol).

You're also right about the possibility of adding schollies at San Diego--I think they are happy in the Pioneer League and can't see them adding scholarships and the additional cost to do so just to play in the Big Sky.

And crazily, the Big Sky is the only option for the entire western United States--one football league for FCS.

BTW...lived in Fresno for a few years for my job and saw some decent football games under Pat Hill for the 2004 and 2005 season (Fresno State could never quite get past Boise State at that time period though).


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:53 pm 
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Sub-Human wrote:
Fresno St. Alum,

Oops---you're exactly right....taking a few more seconds to re-read I see now that people were referring to San Diego and not South Dakota (that never happens with the same abbreviations...lol).

You're also right about the possibility of adding schollies at San Diego--I think they are happy in the Pioneer League and can't see them adding scholarships and the additional cost to do so just to play in the Big Sky.

And crazily, the Big Sky is the only option for the entire western United States--one football league for FCS.

BTW...lived in Fresno for a few years for my job and saw some decent football games under Pat Hill for the 2004 and 2005 season (Fresno State could never quite get past Boise State at that time period though).


The New guy is way better and we score in the 50s almost every game and have won back to back conf. titles. Hill and his 3 yards and a cloud of dust, isn't missed.

I live in Reedley, you probably know about that town since you lived in Fresno.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:02 pm 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
Come to think of it Sub-Human, I believe that for UNO (Omaha) dropping football is the WORST sacrifice the school has ever made. It truly had a rich tradition in that sport. The Mavericks could have played football for the MVFC, along with the other 3 Dakota schools (minus UND).

And Fresno, no offense, but how would Midwestern U.S. mid-major conferences like the A-10 or the Summit or the Horizon would want a Southern school like Belmont? For what, to ruin their respective conference footprints geographically? But I do wish that USD (San Diego) could apply for scholarships to be another fb-only slot for the Big Sky. Plus, should the Summit plan to implode eventually in years to come, most of the eastern Midwest schools would be left open for the Horizon (which does have most of the former Summit/Mid-Con schools).


I have a minor in geography and tell Tk who went where on his map that he does for wiki. As you can see Belmont is in a nice sized city(Nashville) where they could be a travel partner for Dayton or Davidson. They are much further east than St.Louis. Of course if Dayton leaves w/ St.Louis over Richmond then it is much less likely they go that far west. The A-10 has many options from CAA, AEC, MAAC, Horizon that they could choose as well.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:43 am 
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Article out of Omaha with comments from Summit League Commish regarding conference realignment at http://www.omaha.com/article/20131226/MAVS/131229219


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:58 pm 
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freaked4collegefb wrote:
Article out of Omaha with comments from Summit League Commish regarding conference realignment at http://www.omaha.com/article/20131226/MAVS/131229219" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Should the Summit plan to expand in the future, I believe that the following candidates should be North Dakota (no doubt), Northern Colorado, and possibly the return of Southern Utah.

a.) North Dakota should deserve to compete with its other fellow Dakota schools at least once yearly to keep the rivalries alive, especially with other former D-II NCC schools like Nebraska-Omaha. Plus, the football program would be fitting in the MVFC.

b.) Northern Colorado, same like North Dakota.

c.) Southern Utah re-joining the Summit would make a travel partner for Denver on most sports (while football would be fitting as either in thE MFC or as an associate in the Big Sky).

d.) The Summit should plan to absorb the MVFC to re-sponsor football since the mid-1980's.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:43 pm 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
freaked4collegefb wrote:
Article out of Omaha with comments from Summit League Commish regarding conference realignment at http://www.omaha.com/article/20131226/MAVS/131229219" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Should the Summit plan to expand in the future, I believe that the following candidates should be North Dakota (no doubt), Northern Colorado, and possibly the return of Southern Utah.

a.) North Dakota should deserve to compete with its other fellow Dakota schools at least once yearly to keep the rivalries alive, especially with other former D-II NCC schools like Nebraska-Omaha. Plus, the football program would be fitting in the MVFC.

b.) Northern Colorado, same like North Dakota.

c.) Southern Utah re-joining the Summit would make a travel partner for Denver on most sports (while football would be fitting as either in thE MFC or as an associate in the Big Sky).

d.) The Summit should plan to absorb the MVFC to re-sponsor football since the mid-1980's.


I have to disagree about Southern Utah. They are way too far from the footprint and if the Summit were to get Northern Colorado it would eliminate the need for a travel partner for Denver. I think the focus for Summit expansion should be in the following order:

1. North Dakota
2. UMKC
3. Northern Colorado
4. Minnesota-Mankato and St Cloud St (if they want to bring their DII fb programs up)
5. Chicago St (if they need one more to achieve an optimal number)

Getting North Dakota and Northern Colorado would give the Summit enough football schools to take over the MVFC and the divisions would be relatively simple:

East: Youngstown St, Indiana St, Illinois St, SIU, WIU, Missouri
West: UND, NDSU, SDSU, USD, UNI, N Colorado


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:53 pm 
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That is a very knowledgeable article out of Omaha, but.....

Where are North Dakota and Northern Colorado going to put their football programs? It's all good to have them join the Summit League, however if they can't also get an invite to the Missouri Valley Football Conference or have their football teams remain in the Big Sky (which is unlikely) there is little chance of either coming to the Summit.

Southern Utah needs to stay in the Big Sky forever--no question there....since they fit the Big Sky profile perfectly--small market, mountains in the background, and horrible travel to get there.

Denver, due to its urban locale, easy access via air, and large athletic budget is the farthest west the Summit league will ever go.

Honestly, if the Summit League doesn't have the chance to add an eastern school to interest Western Illinois, IUPUI, and Fort Wayne with more geographically friendly travel...you can see the writing on the wall for the Summit League to become a more Great Plains oriented conference.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:58 pm 
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Well Sub-Human, if the Summit doesn't plan on expanding with at least an eastern-based school within its footprint, the other choice is to disband, putting the Dakota schools + Denver + UN-Omaha to either the Big Sky or the WAC; while most of the other schools to the Horizon (which has MOST of the former Summit/Mid-Con schools that currently compete in the league).

fighting muskie wrote:
I have to disagree about Southern Utah. They are way too far from the footprint and if the Summit were to get Northern Colorado it would eliminate the need for a travel partner for Denver. I think the focus for Summit expansion should be in the following order:

1. North Dakota
2. UMKC
3. Northern Colorado
4. Minnesota-Mankato and St Cloud St (if they want to bring their DII fb programs up)
5. Chicago St (if they need one more to achieve an optimal number)

Getting North Dakota and Northern Colorado would give the Summit enough football schools to take over the MVFC and the divisions would be relatively simple:

East: Youngstown St, Indiana St, Illinois St, SIU, WIU, Missouri
West: UND, NDSU, SDSU, USD, UNI, N Colorado


Well Muskie, I agree with you except on some parts. Nebraska-Omaha must bring football back to join the MVFC-absorbed Summit football league. To counter-part UNO (in the West), have former Summit/current Horizon member Valparaiso join for football from the PFL (in the East). I assume that Youngstown St (Horizon), Indiana St. (MVC), Illinois St. (MVC), Missouri St. (MVC), Southern Illinois (MVC) and Northern Iowa (MVC) would be the Summit's affiliate members; while the non-football members will be Denver, IUPUI, IPFW and Oral Roberts. How would you put division play for the Summit for other sports (with the 5 possible candidates)?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:29 pm 
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FCS only requires 6 schools for a conference to sponsor football...

if the Summit added North Dakota and Northeren Colorado they would have six football playing schools and would be able to sponsor it themselves...
if they did that the MVC would have six teams but would probably respond to it by adding more and possibly by giving a full invite to ? school or schools for football...
its the same problem the old Big East had with football and basketball schools...

IF they are able to add ND and NC then the first schools they should go after are the Montanas who alwasy wanted the Dakotas in the Sky...


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:07 am 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
Well Muskie, I agree with you except on some parts. Nebraska-Omaha must bring football back to join the MVFC-absorbed Summit football league. To counter-part UNO (in the West), have former Summit/current Horizon member Valparaiso join for football from the PFL (in the East). I assume that Youngstown St (Horizon), Indiana St. (MVC), Illinois St. (MVC), Missouri St. (MVC), Southern Illinois (MVC) and Northern Iowa (MVC) would be the Summit's affiliate members; while the non-football members will be Denver, IUPUI, IPFW and Oral Roberts. How would you put division play for the Summit for other sports (with the 5 possible candidates)?



Has anyone heard whether or not UNO or Valpo are ready to increase their involvement in fb?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:09 am 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
Well Sub-Human, if the Summit doesn't plan on expanding with at least an eastern-based school within its footprint, the other choice is to disband, putting the Dakota schools + Denver + UN-Omaha to either the Big Sky or the WAC; while most of the other schools to the Horizon (which has MOST of the former Summit/Mid-Con schools that currently compete in the league).

fighting muskie wrote:
I have to disagree about Southern Utah. They are way too far from the footprint and if the Summit were to get Northern Colorado it would eliminate the need for a travel partner for Denver. I think the focus for Summit expansion should be in the following order:

1. North Dakota
2. UMKC
3. Northern Colorado
4. Minnesota-Mankato and St Cloud St (if they want to bring their DII fb programs up)
5. Chicago St (if they need one more to achieve an optimal number)

Getting North Dakota and Northern Colorado would give the Summit enough football schools to take over the MVFC and the divisions would be relatively simple:

East: Youngstown St, Indiana St, Illinois St, SIU, WIU, Missouri
West: UND, NDSU, SDSU, USD, UNI, N Colorado


Well Muskie, I agree with you except on some parts. Nebraska-Omaha must bring football back to join the MVFC-absorbed Summit football league. To counter-part UNO (in the West), have former Summit/current Horizon member Valparaiso join for football from the PFL (in the East). I assume that Youngstown St (Horizon), Indiana St. (MVC), Illinois St. (MVC), Missouri St. (MVC), Southern Illinois (MVC) and Northern Iowa (MVC) would be the Summit's affiliate members; while the non-football members will be Denver, IUPUI, IPFW and Oral Roberts. How would you put division play for the Summit for other sports (with the 5 possible candidates)?


UNO having football would certainly make taking over the MVFC easier--it would likely give the Summit the 7th football member they'd need to sponsor the sport outright, with or without Youngstown St and the MVC schools. As far as divisions go for football and Olympic sports it would ultimately depend on what the final membership roster looked like. Maybe throw the 4 Dakota schools and the 2 Colorado schools in one division and everyone else in the other. As far as football goes, if the Summit and MVFC could find a way to swing it--and it would probably involve involving Pioneer League schools and DII upgrades--they might want to consider growing to the point that they have enough members to sponsor 2 9-team FCS leagues:

Summit: UND, NDSU, SDSU, USD, UNO, N Colo., St Cloud St, Minnesota St-Mankato, WIU
MVC: Y'town St, Indiana St, Valpo, Butler, SIU, Illinois St, UNI, Drake, Missouri St


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