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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:50 pm 
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Or on a crazier note if the IUPUs leave could North Dakota and the Montanas join??

It puts the Montanas into the same leage with the Dakotas which is something they wanted but were originally voted down in the Sky.
It puts the Montanas into a conference with far superior academics and with other Land Grant instutions.
It puts them into a conference with stronger sports overall including football since them leaving the Sky would cause it to drop.
It has roughly the same trave for them.
It would also make the Summit very stable.... Unless there are some magic upgrades to FBS status awaiting some of them and their non exesient TV markets...


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:05 pm 
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uafan852 wrote:
Or on a crazier note if the IUPUs leave could North Dakota and the Montanas join??

It puts the Montanas into the same leage with the Dakotas which is something they wanted but were originally voted down in the Sky.
It puts the Montanas into a conference with far superior academics and with other Land Grant instutions.
It puts them into a conference with stronger sports overall including football since them leaving the Sky would cause it to drop.
It has roughly the same trave for them.
It would also make the Summit very stable.... Unless there are some magic upgrades to FBS status awaiting some of them and their non exesient TV markets...

That's not crazy at all; they're good points. Despite the fact that the Montana and Dakota schools are located near the opposite sides of their respective states, they are border states and there is a strong natural rivalry.

I would go even a step further and add Northern Colorado, for several reasons:
- travel partner for Denver
- history with the Dakota schools in the old D2 North Central Conference
- offer football, baseball and mens track & field, which the Summit needs

Also, I don't think departure of the IUPU schools is a necessary condition. Playing basketball in Indiana every year is not a bad thing - especially if you get two games to help make the long trip worthwhile. However, this would increase the likelihood that the IUPU schools choose to leave, because the addition of these schools and Denver, and the loss of Oakland would shift the Summit far westward.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:08 pm 
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mozilla wrote:
The Bishin Cutter wrote:
I think once the Big East further expands, stuff like ORU moving back will make more sense. Big East growth is going to affect a lot of conferences in the ensuing refilling: A10, CAA, MVC, Horizon, Summit, SoCon, Big South, Southland, ASun, etc.


This kind of makes me wonder why we don't hear more from some of these schools wanting to make the move up. Shouldn't some schools be lobbying for some of these openings?
I know Liberty was making a push...but, where are the others? It's like pulling teeth to get JMU to make a move.


The schools don't have fan forums where the talks leak? I think that's kind of part of it...smaller schools with less support go virtually unnoticed, even if the administrators are busy with a lot of work. I got into this whole realignment thing because of Villanova potentially upgrading to FBS after the 2009 FCS championship buzz. The stuff about just how busy they were came from very few sources, to then later learn that conversations were being had at some pretty high levels for several years.

For ORU, while a small school, their basketball is a pretty big deal to them. The Southland has acquired all of these new similar-minded private schools (non-fb, religious), and now ORU looks like any other school in there. For a program who'd kill for a spot in the MVC, I think the Summit gets them there before the Southland would. Of course, you have to give a reason for the MVC to actually take another school...


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:45 pm 
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Why does the Big Sky need even-ing up?

12 (which is where it will be next year) is a pretty even number


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:49 pm 
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dbackjon wrote:
Why does the Big Sky need even-ing up?

12 (which is where it will be next year) is a pretty even number


Sorry.
I looked at their numbers for bb and noticed 11. I guess that will change with Idaho joining next season.
Doesn't that leave 13 for fb? Since, Idaho will be in the Sunbelt.


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 Post subject: Summit League Expansion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:40 pm 
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Yes, they will have 13 for football. If San Diego ever goes scholarship FCS they would likely be in the Big Sky for football.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:43 pm 
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wbyeager wrote:
Yes, they will have 13 for football. If San Diego ever goes scholarship FCS they would likely be in the Big Sky for football.


They will STILL have 13 because of the 2 affiliates in Cal Poly and UC-Davis (both from the Big West).

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:30 am 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
wbyeager wrote:
Yes, they will have 13 for football. If San Diego ever goes scholarship FCS they would likely be in the Big Sky for football.


They will STILL have 13 because of the 2 affiliates in Cal Poly and UC-Davis (both from the Big West).


If they added SD for football they'd have 14, 11 all sports w/ fb, 3 affiliates, and Idaho as 12 for everything but football. SD isn't going to add schollys so don't worry.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:00 am 
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Fresno St. Alum wrote:
If they added SD for football they'd have 14, 11 all sports w/ fb, 3 affiliates, and Idaho as 12 for everything but football. SD isn't going to add schollys so don't worry.


You have a point there Fresno. By the way, if any of the current Big Sky schools plan to eventually upgrade to FBS, which ones would it be in your opinion?

On a side note, with Oral Roberts re-joining the Summit next season, it would STILL keep the automatic bid for baseball alive, am I correct?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:47 pm 
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The answer to that question.... look back at the hisotry of "the final days of WAC football", about 1-1/2 years ago.

Karl Benson was watching the WAC dissolve before his eyes. The football schools were scrambling to get into CUSA or the MWC.
Karl was pleading with ANY FCS school that might be interested in moving up to the WAC, specifically he was going after Big Sky schools,
since they were in the WAC footprint.

Most commonly mentioned were Montana & Montana State, maybe Sacramento State and Portland State as well.

None were prepared to upgrade on such short notice, but the Montanas were thought to have a shot at success if and when they ever do.
Right now, they would likely have some attendance issues, and the athletic budget couldn't necessarily pay for additional schollys.
Sacramento State has been developing some nice new facilities.
Portland State has a history of competing well vs. FBS teams, but as pounder pointed out, they've had attendance and stadium issues,
and really weren't ready for FBS.

Largely, too, they told Benson and the WAC "No" because the WAC didn't seem like they had any shot of pulling together critical mass (8 members, minimum)
to remain a viable FBS football conference. So ultimately, the WAC dropped football, and Benson made the fortuious jump to the Sun-Belt, where he proceded to
poach the WAC of some of their few FB schools.... in act he threw a lifeline to Idaho and NMSU, allowing them to become FB affiliates of the Sun-Belt.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:36 pm 
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The idea that the University of South Dakota (or any of the Dakotas) is going to leave the Missouri Valley Football Conference to play in the Big Sky is far-fetched. Why, when you have a secure foothold in the Missouri Valley Football Conference, and as an institution you wish to also be a member eventually in the Missouri Valley (basketball) Conference would you decide to join the Big Sky so that you can play in Utah, Arizona, and Idaho?

The only way that the Dakotas would ever consider joining a league that large (13 members for football and 11 for basketball) would be if the Summit League were to implode. The Summit League currently sits at 8 (This will be 9 with Oral Roberts re-joining in 2014) members and allows South Dakota an easier path to an NCAA auto-bid by winning the basketball tournament in Sioux Falls through 2017 (which I think is about 60 miles from Vermillion where USD is located).

Are you telling me that you're going to leave a smaller Summit League (current conference RPI of 15 in basketball) to join a larger Big Sky Conference (current conference RPI of 23) with increased travel costs and 11 members scattered throughout the West when you want to be in a more regionalized league, especially when South Dakota already turned the Big Sky down in favor of a Summit/MVFC membership combo only 4 years ago?

Oral Roberts re-joining the Summit League just shored up the baseball auto-bid and also will give the Summit another boost to RPI next year. There are also rumors on other boards that "people in the know" say that the Summit League will be secure by spring time with the addition of other members--but who the new members will be is only speculation at this point.

Also, South Dakota would much rather be playing a regional football rival like UNI, plus Missouri State, and the Illinois Schools (not to mention SDSU and NDSU)---than 11 of the 13 schools in the Big Sky (except Montana and Montana State) which is what a good non-conference schedule is for.

I don't see it happening in the near future. The cons for South Dakota going to the Big Sky are more travel, more cost, and a larger (also less competitive) group of members to traverse for an NCAA bid in all sports except football--plus 11 far-flung institutions in the Big Sky versus 8 in the Summit in cities like Denver, Omaha, Indianapolis and their brethren SDSU and NDSU not too far down the road.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:28 am 
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I can see your point about South Dakota Sub-Human. But you forgot one thing. What about its longtime rivalry with fellow Dakota school North Dakota? I believe it's unfair that UND has to break away from the others (USD, NDSU, SDSU.). Just my opinion.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:21 pm 
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North Dakota had the mis-fortune of not having resolved the "Fighting Sioux" stuff to the NCAA's satisfaction,
when their big opportunity came along.

Big Sky invited both North Dakota and South Dakota for all sports.

Summit had already invited South Dakota, but they were not in the MVFC, they were a football independent like North Dakota.

Suddenly South Dakota got an MVFC invitation as the 10th FB team, so they took it and agreed to forge ahead with Oly sports in the Summit, just like NDSU and SDSU.

North Dakota got no such invitation, so they said yes to the Big Sky. I thnk the Big Sky would have preferred both or neither, when htey got North Dakota only, that lead to an odd number.

I think all obstacles to dropping the Fighting Sioux name have disappeared, if a Summit / MVFC invitation came along, I bet North Dakota would jump at it.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:32 pm 
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tute79 wrote:
North Dakota had the mis-fortune of not having resolved the "Fighting Sioux" stuff to the NCAA's satisfaction,
when their big opportunity came along.

Big Sky invited both North Dakota and South Dakota for all sports.

Summit had already invited South Dakota, but they were not in the MVFC, they were a football independent like North Dakota.

Suddenly South Dakota got an MVFC invitation as the 10th FB team, so they took it and agreed to forge ahead with Oly sports in the Summit, just like NDSU and SDSU.

North Dakota got no such invitation, so they said yes to the Big Sky. I thnk the Big Sky would have preferred both or neither, when htey got North Dakota only, that lead to an odd number.

I think all obstacles to dropping the Fighting Sioux name have disappeared, if a Summit / MVFC invitation came along, I bet North Dakota would jump at it.


I wonder if the Big Sky would be open to allowing UND to join the Summit but remain in the Big Sky as a fb independent.

Seems logical, and obviously they would probably get the next MVFC invite when availabile.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:37 pm 
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tute79 wrote:
North Dakota had the mis-fortune of not having resolved the "Fighting Sioux" stuff to the NCAA's satisfaction,
when their big opportunity came along.

Big Sky invited both North Dakota and South Dakota for all sports.

Summit had already invited South Dakota, but they were not in the MVFC, they were a football independent like North Dakota.

Suddenly South Dakota got an MVFC invitation as the 10th FB team, so they took it and agreed to forge ahead with Oly sports in the Summit, just like NDSU and SDSU.

North Dakota got no such invitation, so they said yes to the Big Sky. I thnk the Big Sky would have preferred both or neither, when htey got North Dakota only, that lead to an odd number.

I think all obstacles to dropping the Fighting Sioux name have disappeared, if a Summit / MVFC invitation came along, I bet North Dakota would jump at it.


Damnit! For North Dakota, joining the Big Sky alone might had been their worst decision; OR for South Dakota, joining the Summit (all sports) and the MVFC (football) alone might had been their worst decision. In my opinion, all of the Dakotas don't deserve to be on different conferences, which is very unfortunate. Back in the late 2000's, when all 4 of them got D-I status, I thought that they might find a way to join a conference that benefit for their well-being, in terms of athletics and success.

But now we have to wait until like 2015 or 2016 to see if North Dakota plans to re-establish a new nickname, which they had done sooner before that nickname issue before losing the "Fighting Sioux" name to NCAA politics, like most schools whose former nickname was "Indians". Maybe when that happens, hopefully North Dakota can be a possible eligible candidate to join the Summit/MVFC. Plus, they play baseball, which might benefit the Summit with hopes to have the sport with an automatic bid.

tkalmus wrote:
I wonder if the Big Sky would be open to allowing UND to join the Summit but remain in the Big Sky as a fb independent.

Seems logical, and obviously they would probably get the next MVFC invite when availabile.


My thoughts exactly.

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