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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:44 am 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
[Welcome aboard Rabbit74. We're glad that you're here in the CollegeSportsInfo forums. About your response, I guess you took some time to re-analyze about this topic and decided to express your thoughts about it. Nothing personal, since this is an open forum for us fans to express our opinions, analysis and suggestions about conference alignment stuff within every league, here is what I can understand:

Wow! About 14 seems a huge goal. If I was the Summit commish, I would go proposing with at least 12 as the right number; and within that number, the expansion candidates would be based on the geographic footprint (within the Dakotas, Nebraska, Kansas and possibly Colorado). And if the conference wanted to, it should add football, but also depending if most of those candidates sponsor that sport or not. But in order for the Summit to sponsor football, the Summit schools (NDSU, SDSU, USD, WIU) For what I understand is that the Summit is mostly an Upper Midwest-based conference. I would send the Indiana schools (IUPUI & IPFW) to the Horizon League, and to replace them would be what I'm about to state with your candidates list:

North Dakota
Northern Colorado
Eastern Illinois (former member)

With those additions (despite their current issues), it could let the Summit to sponsor football with at least 7 members (the FCS minimum, comparing to the 8-team FBS minimum counterpart). In the process, the MVFC would split, possibly forcing the MVC to sponsor football with most of their members (Illinois St., Indiana St., Southern Illinois, Missouri St., Northern Iowa), plus adding already full member in Drake from non-scholarship, with an associate member in either Valparaiso or Butler or Youngstown St.

For the non-football schools in the Summit, UALR, SIUE, NKU & Belmont seem ok.

Anyways, anything can happen when it comes to conference realigment. Maybe the 2015-16 season might be an impact of a factor for the conference.

By the way, thanks for sharing your thoughts about this expansion realignment discussion.


I hate to be a buzz kill....but, this plan has no chance of working.

First off,...you don't just send away two OLY schools(IUPUI and IUPU FW)...just to replace them with some others. It doesn't work that way.
Second, N. Colorado isn't leaving the Big Sky to come to the Summit...just to play against Denver and North Dakota.
Third, E. Illinois and SIUE aren't leaving the OVC to make a sideways move to the Summit.
Also, why would Belmont leave the OVC where they play many close schools to play in the Summit where all the schools are much further away. The Horizon maybe, but not the Summit.

The Summit doesn't offer more money or TV contracts...so, they have nothing to entice these schools.

And, how do you lure UALR away from the SBC?

....most of these moves to fill the Summit aren't realistic. And I doubt that the MVFC would just sit still and let a bunch of schools depart without doing something about it. And that something....won't be recruiting a bunch of non-scholarship schools to join.
Also, you can't replace scholarship fb programs with non-scholarship programs. They are not an even trade.

So, while I enjoy hearing some unique ideas....this one doesn't seem to have much of a chance for success based on the movements listed. Remember....the OVC just increased their buyout clause for leaving the conference. And since the Summit doesn't offer more money...why would schools incur that expense, plus the entrance fee for the Summit?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:56 pm 
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Sorry about the double post above. The first one didn't show up immediately so I though I had deleted it and so rewrote it only to find both appear. :?:

Anyway, one clarification, the Summit Commissioner did not say he wanted to go to 14 but that there were enough schools interested in the Summit that it COULD go to 14 immediately. This statement was within the last 2-3 months. !0 or 12 is certainly the more likely in my opinion. UALR has at times been encouraged to leave the Sunbelt since they don't offer football. The Sunbelt may have changed their stance on that, I don't know, but at one time UALR a couple of years ago, indicated that the Summit would be a good option if they moved. But everything in this area changes rapidly so who knows.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:09 pm 
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I think adding North Dakota, Northern Colorado, and a third school is a reasonable goal for the Summit. The Summit League needs something to distinguish itself from the MVC and Horizon and having enough members to sponsor FCS football would be something that would set them apart. I think Northern Colorado could be convinced to leave the Big Sky because the Summit could offer them easier travel. Getting the FCS minimum of 7 full members would give them the ability to take over the MVFC and there is not a whole lot UNI, Mizz St, and the Illinois schools could do about it.


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 Post subject: Summit League Expansion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:52 am 
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The FCS minimum is six members, not seven. If the Summit schools left the MVFC (NDSU, SDSU, USD, WIU), they need two more. The two most feasible additions would be Minnesota-Duluth and St. Cloud State. They could initially transition football as part of the MVFC, and then split off with the Summit League once the transition is complete.

The Minnesota schools are also close enough to WIU and the Indiana-Purdue twins to not make them feel like they are on an island. The 4 Dakota/Nebraska schools would have no objections.

This gives the Summit 11 schools. Minnesota State-Mankato would be the clear choice for #12 overall and #7 in football.

Down the line Omaha could reinstate football since conference affiliation would not be an issue. It would also be an opportunity to sponsor a new sport (like women's lacrosse) to help alleviate Title IX issues not only at Omaha but South Dakota as well. The 3 Minnesota schools could be on board as well as part of the transition process, and it would likely not be hard to find a sixth member from within (Denver already sponsors women's lacrosse).

MVC football would survive, albeit barely:

Missouri State
Northern Iowa
Illinois State
Southern Illinois
Indiana State
Youngstown State

If Missouri State leaves for FBS, Southern Illinois, Indiana State, and Youngstown State join the OVC for football (subbing for non-scholarship Morehead State and non-football SIUE and Belmont) while Northern Iowa and Illinois State join the Summit for football only.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:19 am 
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Good posts on Muskie's and wbyeager's part so far. But despite of that, and for what I understand, like why they're saying that the Summit has hate for North Dakota? I mean, what happened to the old D-II North Central Conference days, in terms of athletics and competition? Like UND is being a thorn to the Summit's side, which led the former Sioux joining the Big Sky in the first place?

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 Post subject: Summit League Expansion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:02 pm 
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It's mainly Tom Douple's handling of the nickname issue. Keep in mind USD was originally going to the Big Sky as well, but UND views themselves as being peers of Montana, Montana State, etc. than NDSU or SDSU.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:07 pm 
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The travel budget UND most need to be in the Big Sky has to be a killer. If The Summit could put together a plan that would involve FCS football sponsorship I think UND could be enticed to join their old brethren.

Also, I think if the bigger Minnesota schools can afford the additional scholarships to transition to FCS I'd like to see them make the jump. The Summit could even think about taking over sponsorship of the National Collegiate Hockey Conference as Denver, UNO, UND, St. Cloud St., Minnesota-Duluth, and WCHC member Minnesota-Mankato would all be members


Last edited by fighting muskie on Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:13 pm 
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wbyeager wrote:
It's mainly Tom Douple's handling of the nickname issue. Keep in mind USD was originally going to the Big Sky as well, but UND views themselves as being peers of Montana, Montana State, etc. than NDSU or SDSU.


Even so, it's still unfair, damnit! Even so, how come South Dakota chose the Summit over the Big Sky in the first place? I personally wanna see the Dakota schools either together or either in pairings (i.e.: conf. A: UND, USD; conf. B: NDSU, SDSU), NOT all damn apart!

Anyways, when North Dakota gets their proper choosing of a legit nickname soon as of the 2015-16 season (to replace their once-traditional fight Sioux), after that such period of having that nickname issue, will that affect the school to jump shift to the Summit, or will it remain in the Big Sky just because UND is OVER the other Dakota schools? When I meant "over", I meant it in wrestling terms like its above them or something.

fighting muskie wrote:
The travel budget UND most need to be in the Big Sky has to be a killer. If The Summit could put together a plan that would involve FCS football sponsorship I think UND could be enticed to join their old brethren.


I know, huh? Must be tough when it comes to travel issues for the former Fighting Sioux to face almost half the Big Sky teams on the West Coast (plus WITHOUT division play, which has like 11 full members + 2 fb. affiliates). Like, this ain't the Pac-12 or the MW.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:58 pm 
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The Summit League made an all-but-football offer to USD alongside SDSU and NDSU. USD was prepared to give notice when the Big Sky wanted to add them alongside UND, as USD would finally have a non-Great West home for its football program (the Big Sky basically took the rest of the Great West in Southern Utah, Cal Poly, and Cal Davis). The Summit League then was able to arrange MVFC membership for USD as the MVFC's 10th member.

Had USD gone west, Idaho would be staying in the WAC and The Summit League would be down to 7 schools for 2013-14 counting new member Denver. The Summit would need to add NJIT for all sports just to have a shot at survival. The other possibility is that Denver stays in the WAC since it wouldn't need to invite Grand Canyon. The WAC then invites NDSU and SDSU, and Omaha instead of Chicago State. The Summit League collapses, sending Chicago State, Western Illinois, IUPUI, and IPFW to the Atlantic Sun's new West Division with Lipscomb and NKU.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:15 pm 
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wbyeager wrote:
The Summit League made an all-but-football offer to USD alongside SDSU and NDSU. USD was prepared to give notice when the Big Sky wanted to add them alongside UND, as USD would finally have a non-Great West home for its football program (the Big Sky basically took the rest of the Great West in Southern Utah, Cal Poly, and Cal Davis). The Summit League then was able to arrange MVFC membership for USD as the MVFC's 10th member.

Had USD gone west, Idaho would be staying in the WAC and The Summit League would be down to 7 schools for 2013-14 counting new member Denver. The Summit would need to add NJIT for all sports just to have a shot at survival. The other possibility is that Denver stays in the WAC since it wouldn't need to invite Grand Canyon. The WAC then invites NDSU and SDSU, and Omaha instead of Chicago State. The Summit League collapses, sending Chicago State, Western Illinois, IUPUI, and IPFW to the Atlantic Sun's new West Division with Lipscomb and NKU.


You made a good point. But on the other side of the coin, and after what you've said, I would prefer that instead, just to see the Dakotas compete at least yearly on most sports instead of being literally split, for UND's sake.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:03 am 
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fighting muskie wrote:
Also, I think if the bigger Minnesota schools can afford the additional scholarships to transition to FCS I'd like to see them make the jump. The Summit could even think about taking over sponsorship of the National Collegiate Hockey Conference as Denver, UNO, UND, St. Cloud St., Minnesota-Duluth, and WCHC member Minnesota-Mankato would all be members


I think we're a few years out from seeing something like a system campus war if there won't be sweeping changes in the Division 1 landscape anytime soon. Like, some constriction from the state governments to reel in certain expenses. Some of Minnesota's other campuses *could* support additional programs, but not if it doesn't help the main campus' programs. I'm casually keeping an eye on what happens in Nebraska with ice hockey, and what happens between UNL and UNO. UNO fought really hard to put the sport out there into D1, cutting some of its others to keep it, while all it might take for UNL to do something is get a wheelbarrow of money dumped on them. It's quite the double standard.

I think the Minnesota and Wisconsin field is WYSIWYG. I don't think anyone jumps up into that realm for hoops and/or more.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:10 pm 
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The Bishin Cutter wrote:
fighting muskie wrote:
Also, I think if the bigger Minnesota schools can afford the additional scholarships to transition to FCS I'd like to see them make the jump. The Summit could even think about taking over sponsorship of the National Collegiate Hockey Conference as Denver, UNO, UND, St. Cloud St., Minnesota-Duluth, and WCHC member Minnesota-Mankato would all be members


I think we're a few years out from seeing something like a system campus war if there won't be sweeping changes in the Division 1 landscape anytime soon. Like, some constriction from the state governments to reel in certain expenses. Some of Minnesota's other campuses *could* support additional programs, but not if it doesn't help the main campus' programs. I'm casually keeping an eye on what happens in Nebraska with ice hockey, and what happens between UNL and UNO. UNO fought really hard to put the sport out there into D1, cutting some of its others to keep it, while all it might take for UNL to do something is get a wheelbarrow of money dumped on them. It's quite the double standard.

I think the Minnesota and Wisconsin field is WYSIWYG. I don't think anyone jumps up into that realm for hoops and/or more.


While no sport will surpass football/basketball, baseball is getting good ratings these last few years and nationwide interests in collegiate hockey is steadily increasing.

Its only a matter of time before most of the Big Ten is playing these sports and that includes Nebraska, but I imagine that UNO will still be able to keep their program.

Hockey rights are growing, and I expect most Northern schools to sponsor the sport but Idoubt it'll ever expand much to the South or West.

However, I expect LAX to skyrocket in the next 10-20 years. We'll see an increase of LAX playing members of the ACC/B1G, and possibly a Western formation between the Big12/PAC12, as every school except Oklahoma State plays top tier club, and many like Texas, Stanford, and Arizona State have talked about "getting in" on the sport as they have plently of homegrown talent that is shipping out to the Big Ten/ACC. If they can keep the talent in state then they can also claim some of that $$$. LAX in a few year will be like baseball and will be yet another "required" sport that is needed in order to join/stay in the elite leagues.

I see few few more D2 upgrades coming out of out Minn/Wisconsin but I doubt there are any suprises.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:44 am 
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Someone asked me as a Summit League fan and follower by pm if I thought North Dakota should be brought into the Summit League to join its Dakota Brothers. (Since I don't have enough posts to be able to pm back, I will answer here.) Asking if North Dakota should be brought into the Summit to join its sister institutions is like asking if Texas A&M should be returned to the Big 12 to join the other Texas schools or if Florida should be moved to the ACC to join Florida State and Miami. On the surface, it makes a lot of sense to increase in-state rivalries and reduce travel costs, etc, But these issues also involve emotions, personalities, egos and interpersonal relationships. the financial consequences are not as great as they are for the major conference schools but are still important. North Dakota probably would be in the Summit except that the Summit supposedly indicated they would not be considered for membership until they resolved their Sioux mascot issue with the NCAA. That issue drug on for several years and in fact North Dakota still doesn't have a mascot replacement. That stance by the Summit did not go down well at UND. In addition, NDSU and UND have a very intense relationship on and off the field that impacts the possible addition of UND to the Summit. SDSU and USD have a similar rivalry, but it has probably been less antagonistic over the years. In my personal opinion, it was good for SDSU and USD to be in separate conferences for a 7 or so years which allowed some of the negative aspects of the rivalry to dissipate over time and the more positive aspects are now apparent when they play. UND joining the Summit also brings up the football issue. There probably isn't a space in the MVFC for UND as the more eastern schools in the conference do not want to have to make another trip to the northern plains each year. Some of suggested that the Summit League try to start its own football conference, but why would the four football playing members want to leave the arguably strongest football conference in FCS to form a new less stable at least initially football conference? Finally, from a geographic perspective, the Summit has 6 western schools, SDSU, NDSU, USD, Omaha, Oral Roberts and Denver) and only three eastern schools, (IUPUI, Fort Wayne, and Western Illinois) so there is really more of a need for an eastern school to balance the conference geographically. The Summit League has become much more highly respected conference over the last few years. Its men's post season basketball tournament is one of the best attended of all the mid major conferences and the women's post season conference tourney is more highly attended than those of some of the major conferences as written up in USA Today last March. So the Summit is not desperate although they would probably like to add 1-3 schools provided they are a good fit. I personally would not mind if UND joined the Summit, but there may well be other institutions that would be better fits and that would strengthen the league more. From my perspective, UND needs the Summit more than the Summit needs UND, but I doubt if UND fans see it that way.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:32 am 
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Rabbit74 wrote:
Someone asked me as a Summit League fan and follower by pm if I thought North Dakota should be brought into the Summit League to join its Dakota Brothers. (Since I don't have enough posts to be able to pm back, I will answer here.) Asking if North Dakota should be brought into the Summit to join its sister institutions is like asking if Texas A&M should be returned to the Big 12 to join the other Texas schools or if Florida should be moved to the ACC to join Florida State and Miami. On the surface, it makes a lot of sense to increase in-state rivalries and reduce travel costs, etc, But these issues also involve emotions, personalities, egos and interpersonal relationships. the financial consequences are not as great as they are for the major conference schools but are still important. North Dakota probably would be in the Summit except that the Summit supposedly indicated they would not be considered for membership until they resolved their Sioux mascot issue with the NCAA. That issue drug on for several years and in fact North Dakota still doesn't have a mascot replacement. That stance by the Summit did not go down well at UND. In addition, NDSU and UND have a very intense relationship on and off the field that impacts the possible addition of UND to the Summit. SDSU and USD have a similar rivalry, but it has probably been less antagonistic over the years. In my personal opinion, it was good for SDSU and USD to be in separate conferences for a 7 or so years which allowed some of the negative aspects of the rivalry to dissipate over time and the more positive aspects are now apparent when they play. UND joining the Summit also brings up the football issue. There probably isn't a space in the MVFC for UND as the more eastern schools in the conference do not want to have to make another trip to the northern plains each year. Some of suggested that the Summit League try to start its own football conference, but why would the four football playing members want to leave the arguably strongest football conference in FCS to form a new less stable at least initially football conference? Finally, from a geographic perspective, the Summit has 6 western schools, SDSU, NDSU, USD, Omaha, Oral Roberts and Denver) and only three eastern schools, (IUPUI, Fort Wayne, and Western Illinois) so there is really more of a need for an eastern school to balance the conference geographically. The Summit League has become much more highly respected conference over the last few years. Its men's post season basketball tournament is one of the best attended of all the mid major conferences and the women's post season conference tourney is more highly attended than those of some of the major conferences as written up in USA Today last March. So the Summit is not desperate although they would probably like to add 1-3 schools provided they are a good fit. I personally would not mind if UND joined the Summit, but there may well be other institutions that would be better fits and that would strengthen the league more. From my perspective, UND needs the Summit more than the Summit needs UND, but I doubt if UND fans see it that way.


You have various good points Rabbit. For instance:

North Dakota does have issues with the other Dakota schools, even ever since that the nickname issue UND has, which led South Dakota to join the Summit (instead of the Big Sky with UND as a pair combo) in the first place. So far, UND hasn't yet figured out a decent nickname and they have it until the beginning of the 2015-16 season. How about the former Fighting Sioux becoming either the Flickertails or the Roughriders as its future nickname and mascot? Which both of those suggestions look not offensive to Native Americans, but also well-represented within the state.

Regarding with the football issue, you're right about that. But look at how the Big Sky is currently, with 13 members (11 full + 2 fb-only in UC-Davis & Cal Poly), which is not typical for an FCS conference. Why not the MVFC have about 12 members? Maybe someday, once UND solves the nickname issue, they might possibly re-apply for the Summit & MVFC respectively.

In case UND is not considered Summit material (plus, it plays great baseball for the WAC as an affiliate), then how about the Summit finding more suitable schools within the right side of the Midwest (IL, IN, OH)? But those schools must be D-II upgrades. Aside from UND, why not having some Minnesota schools as well?

I also think that UND needs the Summit than the Summit needs UND. But as long as they stay in the Big Sky, it might never happen.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:48 pm 
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The Summit League just upped its exit fee to $1,000,000. Great sign of stability when the exit fee is increased. It was $250,000 previously.


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