NCAA Conference Realignment & Expansion Message Boards
NCAA Map

Discussions by Conference:
  It is currently Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:53 am

Help support CollegeSportsInfo.com by shopping

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1134 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56 ... 76  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:48 pm 
Offline
All-Star
All-Star
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:56 pm
Posts: 2750
Location: Reedley, CA
They don't need 8 in the SLC for football. In the FCS you need 6 for fb. 8 would be more ideal but if no one from the south wants to move up then they don't have any fb options. Delta St., Tarleton St.? backup plan UALR, ORU. locks if all else fails UTPA, HBU.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:09 am 
Online
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am
Posts: 3802
Yes, but the Southland has been pretty public that it wants to protect it's football interests i.e. membership numbers. At 7, they are one Lamar or SHSU upgrade away from being the great West.

_________________
Image

Image@ncaasports Image csi.com/facebook

Image
Like the new CSI Userbar? Feel free to use it here and any other forums.
You can save and host it yourself or link from here.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:56 pm 
Offline
All-Star
All-Star

Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:25 pm
Posts: 1650
Perhaps these last few posts belong over on the Southland Conf. thread, but they do pertain to the possible destination of ORU and UALR and therefore relevant to the Summit, too.

If you are running the Southland, you've heard all the rumblings. Assume UTSA and Texas St. announce departures today. The only other SLC school making FBS rumblings (I think) is Lamar (maybe they have their eye on the Sun-Belt).

So in FCS, for a football conference you need 6, but let's assume that realistically you want 8 minimum.

So they COULD replace UTSA and Texas St. now with 2 non-FB schools (say ORU and UALR), and tell Lamar that if they choose to NOT play FB in the SLC, they are gone.
I think the obvious source of replacements is the D-2 Lonestar Conference, in fact they were into some fairly serious negotiations with Tarleton State and perhaps other Lonestar football schools a few years ago, when they expanded to 12 with Central Arkansas and TA&M - Corpus Christi.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:14 pm 
Offline
All-Conference
All-Conference

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 9:41 pm
Posts: 749
Location: Wilmington, NC
The Summit League has a real chance to lay a solid regional foundation which would allow them to better compete with the Horizon and have a clear geographic footprint of their own.

Step 1 and 2 are already completed: Find more appropriate homes for Southern Utah and Centenary
Step 3: Work with the Southland to get them to take Oral Roberts for the UTSA non football school slot that is now open
Step 4: Get Nebraska Omaha to upgrade to Division 1 and FCS Football and invite them for Summit Member #9
Step 5: Kiss and make up with North Dakota and get them for Summit Member #10
Step 6: Work with MVFC to get Nebraska Omaha and UND in as #11 and #12; Divisions would be a piece of cake; No pressure to add football for other schools as the football schools have a solid home w/ all their rivals in all sports.

You could also then begin evauating east and west candidates, one for each potential division, for the 11 and 12 slots if you wanted to go divisions in all sports.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:46 pm 
Offline
All-Conference
All-Conference
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am
Posts: 673
Location: Louisville, KY
Is the return of football still a possibility at Wichita State? They could be the 11th football school in the MVFC and North Dakota could be #12. If North Dakota moved the rest of its sports to the Summit, then that creates the following:

Big Sky: 10 all sports/12 football
Summit: 10 all sports/0 football
MVFC: 10 all sports/12 football (5 from Summit, 6 from MVC, 1 from Horizon)

The Summit could then bring on Nebraska-Omaha for all sports, which would allow the MVFC members to play football in their home conferences, although both conferences would just barely meet the requirements for an automatic bid.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:59 am 
Offline
Freshman
Freshman

Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:45 pm
Posts: 29
Beyond simple physical geography, which this thread seems to emphasize, there are many cultural, economic, social, and political reasons why the Big Sky is a much better institutional conference choice for UND and why the Summit is a poor choice. The Dakota schools have significantly different resources and programs, and each are seeking the right individual situation. Out of unintentional ignorance, this thread seems to want to pigeonhole each institution as identical.

- U of North Dakota has more of a national profile than the other Dakota schools - more national programs (aviation, medicine, energy, entrepreneurship), higher rated academics (UND and NDSU are Tier 1, USD and SDSU are Tier 2), higher endowment, higher athletic budget, national TV contract on Fox College Sports, more regional broadcasts.

- UND's American undergraduate enrollment from outside the upper Midwest is much higher than the other schools - largely because of aviation - and UND wants to continue an upward enrollment trend. The Big Sky has a better brand to help with that marketing.

- North Dakota participates in the Western Undergraduate Exchange, where students from western states gain reduced tuition. The footprint of the Summit and the MVFC does not include states that are eligible for reduced enrollment.

- UND has by far the largest grad school - so again, exposure outside the region is important.

- By adding UND, the Big Sky gains exposure throughout the Dakotas and NW Minnesota, with UND's regional cable network. SDSU and NDSU do not have cable networks. USD just started theirs. So in essences, by adding UND, Big Sky programming gained viewership for almost 1.5 million (+ NW Minnesota). The Summit will not have the cable programming in the Dakotas with 3 schools that the Big Sky will have with one school.

- UND has a number of programs geared toward American Indians (medicine, law, engineering, nursing, psychology, aviation etc). The West is where the American Indian population largely lives.

- UND medicine is geared toward servicing the rural west. Again, kinship with the Big Sky.

- UND's strength in geology, energy, environmental sciences and engineering are again geared toward development of western resources: oil, mining, wind, western coal - again associated with the West.

- Western North Dakota has strong ties with Montana and Denver - not with the Midwest. Western North Dakota is also going through an unprecedented oil boom - bringing untold billions into the state economy. That is a very important consideration about what market to serve. Eastern Montana and Western North Dakota will become like a new American Alberta with respect to energy - few people outside the region understand that.

- Other than Minneapolis-St Paul and N Dakota itself, the alumni of UND are concentrated in western cities in and near the Big Sky footprint: Phoenix, Denver, Seattle, Portland, Bay Area. The Minneapolis alumni can connect with UND athletics through the WCHA. For South Dakota schools, the Kansas City market as in the Summit is very important - not so for UND.

- As a school with an aviation and aerospace college, UND has a fleet of it's own to assist with charter travel. Travel in the Big Sky is essentially no different than the Great West.

- With over 260,000 paying fans last year, UND hockey is a tremendous financial resource to fund much of the other programs. USD especially has significant budget issues and facility needs - and would struggle financially in the Big Sky.

- U of Montana specifically listed it's new association with UND as a reason that it will stay with peer schools in the Big Sky.


UND is staying with the Big Sky for the long-term, as it's future lies increasingly in the West.

NDSU on the other hand increasingly relies on students from Mpls-St Paul (Minnesota students are the majority of it's undergrad populations). Many of NDSU's programs are geared toward midwestern agriculture and manufacturing - so it's association with the Summit and MVFC make more sense strategically to it.

As far as Nebraska-Omaha - it needs to continue to associate itself with UND for hockey reasons.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:44 am 
Online
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am
Posts: 3802
wbyeager wrote:
Is the return of football still a possibility at Wichita State? They could be the 11th football school in the MVFC and North Dakota could be #12. If North Dakota moved the rest of its sports to the Summit, then that creates the following:

Big Sky: 10 all sports/12 football
Summit: 10 all sports/0 football
MVFC: 10 all sports/12 football (5 from Summit, 6 from MVC, 1 from Horizon)

The Summit could then bring on Nebraska-Omaha for all sports, which would allow the MVFC members to play football in their home conferences, although both conferences would just barely meet the requirements for an automatic bid.


Technically, UNO now has two options:

If the MVFC agreed to addign UND and UNO for football, then UNO could upgrade to D1 and join the Summit, along with UND. Summit has stable membership then, even if they lose ORU.

But UNO also has the Big Sky option now. They could upgrade and join with UND, NoCo, Montana St. and Montana in the Big Sky for a 12/14 split.

I think the Summit would be smart to make a push to get UNO to join and get the MVFC to OK UND and UNO.

Makes for a nice balance:
UND, NDSU, USD, SDSU, UNO, UMKC, WIU, IPFW, IUPUI, Oakland

_________________
Image

Image@ncaasports Image csi.com/facebook

Image
Like the new CSI Userbar? Feel free to use it here and any other forums.
You can save and host it yourself or link from here.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:30 pm 
Offline
Freshman
Freshman

Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:45 pm
Posts: 29
Quinn wrote:
wbyeager wrote:
Is the return of football still a possibility at Wichita State? They could be the 11th football school in the MVFC and North Dakota could be #12. If North Dakota moved the rest of its sports to the Summit, then that creates the following:

Big Sky: 10 all sports/12 football
Summit: 10 all sports/0 football
MVFC: 10 all sports/12 football (5 from Summit, 6 from MVC, 1 from Horizon)

The Summit could then bring on Nebraska-Omaha for all sports, which would allow the MVFC members to play football in their home conferences, although both conferences would just barely meet the requirements for an automatic bid.


Technically, UNO now has two options:

If the MVFC agreed to addign UND and UNO for football, then UNO could upgrade to D1 and join the Summit, along with UND. Summit has stable membership then, even if they lose ORU.

But UNO also has the Big Sky option now. They could upgrade and join with UND, NoCo, Montana St. and Montana in the Big Sky for a 12/14 split.

I think the Summit would be smart to make a push to get UNO to join and get the MVFC to OK UND and UNO.

Makes for a nice balance:
UND, NDSU, USD, SDSU, UNO, UMKC, WIU, IPFW, IUPUI, Oakland


LOL. Not going to happen.

This board just does not get anything beyond simple geography and mileage.

TCU moving to the MWC must have been viewed as insanity on this board.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:51 pm 
Online
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am
Posts: 3802
s2c wrote:
Quinn wrote:
wbyeager wrote:
Is the return of football still a possibility at Wichita State? They could be the 11th football school in the MVFC and North Dakota could be #12. If North Dakota moved the rest of its sports to the Summit, then that creates the following:

Big Sky: 10 all sports/12 football
Summit: 10 all sports/0 football
MVFC: 10 all sports/12 football (5 from Summit, 6 from MVC, 1 from Horizon)

The Summit could then bring on Nebraska-Omaha for all sports, which would allow the MVFC members to play football in their home conferences, although both conferences would just barely meet the requirements for an automatic bid.


Technically, UNO now has two options:

If the MVFC agreed to addign UND and UNO for football, then UNO could upgrade to D1 and join the Summit, along with UND. Summit has stable membership then, even if they lose ORU.

But UNO also has the Big Sky option now. They could upgrade and join with UND, NoCo, Montana St. and Montana in the Big Sky for a 12/14 split.

I think the Summit would be smart to make a push to get UNO to join and get the MVFC to OK UND and UNO.

Makes for a nice balance:
UND, NDSU, USD, SDSU, UNO, UMKC, WIU, IPFW, IUPUI, Oakland


LOL. Not going to happen.

This board just does not get anything beyond simple geography and mileage.

TCU moving to the MWC must have been viewed as insanity on this board.


Being that geography is one of the last of the criteria that we collectively focus on, I don't know where you possibly would come up with that. As a newcomer to this forum, I would recommend reading the threads first and posting only when you have a better understanding of the data provided on this forum.

* Summit League commissioner Tom Douple has already had conversations with UNO Ad Trev Alberts.
* The MVFC has gone on the record of being in favor of 10 schools or 12 schools, just not 11...which is why UND was left out.
* The MVFC and Summit had discussed a merger already for football, but was put on hold when SUU made it clear they would leave for the Big Sky if invited. In other words, the two conferences work together.
* Obviously if the MVFC didn't agree to accept UND and UNO, then the Summit would not expand with them.
* The Big Sky is on the record of being in favor or 12/14. They are 11/13. So where is that #12 going to come from? UNO is currently the only real option.


so s2c, I hate to be blunt, but frankly, if you don't want to be here, dont' be here. We don't really need trolls trying to stir up things rather than just doing your homework first and posting something beneficial.

_________________
Image

Image@ncaasports Image csi.com/facebook

Image
Like the new CSI Userbar? Feel free to use it here and any other forums.
You can save and host it yourself or link from here.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:22 pm 
Offline
All-Star
All-Star
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:56 pm
Posts: 2750
Location: Reedley, CA
ah I wanted to talk sh*t to the newbie that pins the whole website's opinion on one post.

Geography does matter Utah Valley and NJIT are in the same conf., so are La Tech and Hawaii. I'm just waiting for the BE to take Hawaii then we will have seen it all ;)

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:22 pm 
Offline
Freshman
Freshman

Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:45 pm
Posts: 29
Quinn wrote:
so s2c, I hate to be blunt, but frankly, if you don't want to be here, dont' be here. We don't really need trolls trying to stir up things rather than just doing your homework first and posting something beneficial.


So let me get this straight:

I posted 13 very factual and thoughtful reasons why UND would prefer to stay in the Big Sky over the MVFC/Summit.

Immediately, in the next post, apparently rejecting all of that homework and facts, it was implied that UND would accept the MVFC/Summit combination if offered. If facts were of paramount importance here, my earlier post would have been questioned and discussed. But now I am accused of not bringing facts to the table. :shock:

The idea of Big Sky full membership is something UND has always dreamed up, but was only made available recently - likely by Montana's enhanced bargaining position in the Big Sky. Full membership in the Big Sky - rather than Big Sky football affiliate membership changed UND's outlook on conference affiliation. I stated that UND is no longer not interested in the Summit. Apparently you disagree. Where are your facts?

Certainly you are capable of understanding my frustration with this board.

BTW, Fresno State fan posts on multiple boards, and I really value his opinion.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:21 am 
Offline
All-Star
All-Star
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:56 pm
Posts: 2750
Location: Reedley, CA
s2c, who are you, if you know me? If you're not using sarcasm I thank you. Apparently my degree in liberal studies at Fresno St. in 2001 doesn't count since you call me "fan" not alum

If you know I post on a lot of boards you must be well rounded. Are you NoDak? That's they only UND fan I see on lots of boards. When NCC was strong in D-II it was a dream for the 4 dakotas to be in the big sky if the D-I NCC wasn't gonna happen. Things changed, DSUs left UDs behind bad blood, yada yada 2010 is here 3 are back together and UND went it's own way for now.

Here's my level headed answer. No facts just 20 years of watching the musical chairs of conference movement. I think that if the Summit gets UNO to move up and is offered MVFC membership there's a good shot UND joins. I think N.Dak politics would really like NDSU and UND in the same conference like they were in the NCC. I don't see how Portland St., Sac St., Idaho St. are more like UND than NDSU, USD, SDSU, UNO who they were in a conf. with for a long time. UNC is the only Sky school that UND has a long rivalry with. Geography doesn't matter if it pays to make long trips. The Sky is no better than MVFC/Summit so why not cut down travel costs by joining the Summit. MVFC doesn't want 12. Then I see UNO joining UND in the Sky.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:57 am 
Offline
All-Star
All-Star
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:56 pm
Posts: 2750
Location: Reedley, CA
Quinn, I looked up some of s2c's stuff. He's got a lot of good D-II to D-I info that he passed on to me last year on here. I think you hit a nerve talking about his team(UND). He's talking about hockey in an expansion thread. That should tell you where his loyalty is.

We all know hockey doesn't drive any bus in college sports. UND had D-I hockey and were good long before the move to D-I. Football drives the bus if you have it, basketball does if you don't have football. Summit/Big Sky have nothing to do with hockey.

_________________
Image


Last edited by Fresno St. Alum on Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:05 pm 
Online
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am
Posts: 3802
s2c wrote:
Quinn wrote:
so s2c, I hate to be blunt, but frankly, if you don't want to be here, dont' be here. We don't really need trolls trying to stir up things rather than just doing your homework first and posting something beneficial.


So let me get this straight:

I posted 13 very factual and thoughtful reasons why UND would prefer to stay in the Big Sky over the MVFC/Summit.

Immediately, in the next post, apparently rejecting all of that homework and facts, it was implied that UND would accept the MVFC/Summit combination if offered. If facts were of paramount importance here, my earlier post would have been questioned and discussed. But now I am accused of not bringing facts to the table. :shock:

The idea of Big Sky full membership is something UND has always dreamed up, but was only made available recently - likely by Montana's enhanced bargaining position in the Big Sky. Full membership in the Big Sky - rather than Big Sky football affiliate membership changed UND's outlook on conference affiliation. I stated that UND is no longer not interested in the Summit. Apparently you disagree. Where are your facts?

Certainly you are capable of understanding my frustration with this board.

BTW, Fresno State fan posts on multiple boards, and I really value his opinion.



Look, we get it, you're a UND fan. That's great and it's always expected that a fan will have a high level of optimism in their program (and the decisions made by the school administrators).And now UND is headed to the Big Sky and that's where the immediate future will be.

But what is a fact is that the preference for UND was to be in the MVFC. And doing so they would be in said conference with the other 3 Dakota schools. Unfortunately for UND, that was not something the MVFC was interested in.

What is a fact is that it came down to simple math: the MVFC wanted 10 or 12 schools. It all hinged on SUU. Don't be so quick to forget that the Summit/MVFC merger came close to happening, but SUU was straight forward in telling the Summit/MVFC that they eventually hoped to be in the Big Sky with NAU and Weber St. You're opinion based on your last post is that UND would have turned down the MVFC and instead joined the Big Sky. Odd that USD had (2) options instead of just one, and they chose the opposite of UND. Are we to assume they just were in favor of making a decision that made less economic sense? Or maybe they made the decision that was in their best economic interests.

What is a fact is that Montana had been discussing internally leaving the Big Sky to join FBS and the WAC. The UND move to the Big Sky was done under the impression that Montana might not even be there.

In what one can only assume is blind optimism, you seem to be trying to tell us that you honestly think that UND prefers to NOT be with the other 3 Dakota schools. And that they do NOT want to be in the MVFC for football. And those assumptions are incorrect based on multiple sources. UND's first choice was to join the MVFC and be a part of the Summit League for it's other sports. But football needed a home and the Big Sky was the only option. The Big Sky invitation to North Dakota was extended under the assumption that the MVFC was not going to expand and the UND AND USD would be joining. The only issue was USD working out the exit situation with the Summit, which they hadn't fully joined yet. And at the last minute, the MVFC made it's offer to USD...the same offer that UND had hoped for and unfortunately for them, never got.

Conference realignment comes down to simple economics. And if the Summit League does expand with UNO, something that has been discussed, UNO will only be upgrading if they have a football home. The struggles at UND and USD (RE: football home) are enough to make any program find assurances before upgrading now. And if Douple works with the MVFC on UNO membership, it still comes down to the 10/12 issue. Unless a program like YSU or WIU leaves for another conference, there will be no open 10th spot.

And the economics are very basic to understand: the savings on travel costs for all sports are huge for UND in the Summit/MVFC compared to the Big Sky. And if the MVFC does lose a school, you can bet the farm that UND will listen to join as a replacement. And if UNO does enter the picture for an upgrade, there is a strong likelihood that UND would be approached beforehand since the the MVFC would stick to the 10 or 12 model.


As for your frustration, my response derives from exactly that FSA posted: some newcomer comes in here and posts without reading enough of the forum to be able to make a value judgement. Had you, you would know that this forum places a premium on the facts and the top conference realignment factors: economic opportunity. Similarities in school mindsets, etc, are all luxury items that follow AFTER economics. Look no further than the Big East, a hybrid of some of the stronger academic schools (private basketball schools) with some of the lowest ranked large state schools.


And when dealing with the bottom of the barrel conferences like the Asun, Big Sky, Summit League...those with less options...indeed, geography is a factor because we're talking about conferences with minimal revenue streams. The primary motive behind the historical push by SUU to get into the Big Sky has been to cut on travel expenses by being in a better regional footprint. Same with Denver to the WAC. At the top of the conference landscape you have much more money, so a school like TCU is not going to have to factor in location and would jump at a chance to join the Pac-10 or even Big East (for all sports). But of course, the Big 12 is their top preference, in their own backyard.


But if you're going to come in here and post about false assumptions and make statements assuming that people think one way and "it's all about geography", it's well worth telling you that you are mistaken. But that doesn't change the fact that one should not have to tell you this. You should do your homework first before making false assessments. And if you are frustrated and don't want to put in the time to understand what the real mindset is of the posters here, then it's as simple as not coming. Just like USD in recent weeks, you have choices. And it requires exactly zero effort to just no visit. We're all dedicated to this topic here, and would always prefer the membership to be quality rather than quantity. Because it only takes a few posters before a forum is borderline unusable like a number of forums I used to frequent more often in the past.

_________________
Image

Image@ncaasports Image csi.com/facebook

Image
Like the new CSI Userbar? Feel free to use it here and any other forums.
You can save and host it yourself or link from here.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:08 pm 
Online
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am
Posts: 3802
Fresno St. Alum wrote:
s2c, who are you, if you know me? If you're not using sarcasm I thank you. Apparently my degree in liberal studies at Fresno St. in 2001 doesn't count since you call me "fan" not alum

If you know I post on a lot of boards you must be well rounded. Are you NoDak? That's they only UND fan I see on lots of boards. When NCC was strong in D-II it was a dream for the 4 dakotas to be in the big sky if the D-I NCC wasn't gonna happen. Things changed, DSUs left UDs behind bad blood, yada yada 2010 is here 3 are back together and UND went it's own way for now.

Here's my level headed answer. No facts just 20 years of watching the musical chairs of conference movement. I think that if the Summit gets UNO to move up and is offered MVFC membership there's a good shot UND joins. I think N.Dak politics would really like NDSU and UND in the same conference like they were in the NCC. I don't see how Portland St., Sac St., Idaho St. are more like UND than NDSU, USD, SDSU, UNO who they were in a conf. with for a long time. UNC is the only Sky school that UND has a long rivalry with. Geography doesn't matter if it pays to make long trips. The Sky is no better than MVFC/Summit so why not cut down travel costs by joining the Summit. MVFC doesn't want 12. Then I see UNO joining UND in the Sky.


bravo

_________________
Image

Image@ncaasports Image csi.com/facebook

Image
Like the new CSI Userbar? Feel free to use it here and any other forums.
You can save and host it yourself or link from here.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1134 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56 ... 76  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
 

 




Looking for College Sports apparel? Support our partner:








Support Our Partners: Search Engine Marketing - Search Engine Optimization - Search Engine Training - Online Marketing for Restuarants

Subway Map Shirts - Food and Travel

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group