Just want to add some fuel to the fire with some additional info. All of South Dakota's public Universities have the same admission standards.

The state of South Dakota recently started a program to award scholarships to entice more of the best and the brightest to stay home. Here are figures from the first class. Of the 826 students that qualified for the Opportunity Scholarship (*Students qualify by taking a rigorous course of study in high school, maintaining a strong grade-point average and scoring at least 24 on the ACT.) 354 chose SDSU, 174 chose USD, and 180 chose other schools in the state.


*quoted from the Sioux Falls Argus Leader Story written by Terry Woster.

http://www.argusleader.com/news/Mondayarticle2.shtm

Combine that with most recent graduation rates from the NCAA:

SDSU
All students: 53 percent
Student athletes: 73 percent

USD
All students: 50 percent
Student athletes: 58 percent

and I think you can see that sometimes bigger is better! ;D


P.S. USD was founded in 1862 but didn't have it's first classes until 1882.

SDSU on the other hand was founded in 1881 and held it's first classes in 1884.

The Athletic Graduation as far as measuring overall academic rankings doesn't matter, except in athletics.

Is there any statisitics on the number of South Dakotans that take advantage of the repreciprocity with the University of Minnesota. I would suspect that a large number of the type of students who would go to the University of South Dakota, may choose the University of Minnesota instead. If you wanted to be a doctor or a lawyer, you would get better advantages as far as what medical school or law school you would go to if you went to the University of Minnesota compared to the smaller University of South Dakota.

The majors that someone who would go to USD would be more artsy/fartsy or pre-law, pre-med types, plus the prestigious journalism program. But if can go to the University of Minnesota, which is one of the most diverse and large institutions offering a plethora of diverse majors in those artsy-fartsy things then you would choose University of Minnesota. I think the tuition is like being from Minnesota if you are from the Dakotas if I am not mistaken. If not UMinn, then they go to University of Nebraska. No reproprocity there.

Now if you are more along the lines of practical majors like engineering then you would go to SDSU. The engineering school is what probably makes it bigger. These more practical majors make the school maybe more popular as a choice and would make them the local choice, where the would-be USD artsy/fartsy pre-law/pre-med types may go to U Minnesota instead, as it gives them better advantages. Without this reprocity agreement, I bet that USD would be harder to get into, because of capacity and those artsy-fartsy and pre-med, pre-law types would go there instead. North and South Dakota are not states that young people stay in, so if they can go to another states university like U Minn, they are more likely to do it.

Also, the State of South Dakota has a 2nd Engineering school, only not at USD. Its the South Dakota School of Mines, located in Rapid City. the University of North Dakota has an Engineering and Mines school and NDSU has the other Engineering school which includes Architecture. If USD had the School of Mines along with their engineering, it would be the same size as SDSU, as the enrollment of SD School of Mines is 2,400.

The bigger is better arguement is still not proven. 89Rabitt, can you tell me if their is a designed capacity for both schools (USD and SDSU). The Reprocity with UMinn, plus several South Dakotans going to Univ of Nebraska, Iowa State and University of Iowa has an impact on enrollment in these schools in the Dakotas, just for the reason of having a critical mass of programs. There, the size of those institutions would matter to the 4 Flagships of the Dakotas.

This is what I am talking about by the way, RE: the University of Minnesota:

http://onestop.umn.edu/onestop/Tuition_Billing/Tuition_Rates/Reciprocity_tuition_and_fee_rates.html




Thus, South Dakotans, North Dakotans and Manitobans are treated like Minnesotans -- ie. thus the University of Minnesota is acting like another state flagship university for both North Dakota and South Dakota. If this did not exist, I bet the University of South Dakota would have more people choosing it for college, as they would have more limited choices. But how can the USD compete with U Minn?

Yet more info, from today's Sioux Falls Argus Leader:

http://www.argusleader.com/sports/Fridayarticle5.shtml

Student athletes fare well in class

MADISON - Student athletes at the six state-run universities do well academically when compared to the student body as a whole, according to a report prepared for the state Board of Regents.

The grade point average of all student athletes outpaced the GPA of the general student population, the report said.

It looked at data for students enrolled during spring and fall terms in 2003.

The grade point average of student athletes at individual universities ranged from a high of 2.89 at South Dakota State University in Brookings to a low of 2.6 at Black Hills State University in Spearfish. . . .


You keep talking about this "prestigious journalism program" at USD. a friend of mine who is a journalism prof. at Oklahoma wrote this.

"I can comment about one department on each campus: journalism. USD has a newly remodeled facility, paid for by Uncle Al Neuharth... and they have five faculty for it. Oh, wait, their department chair is leaving because they have no money to OPERATE the new facility and he's frustrated (he's a great guy, by the way). So make that four faculty. And of those four, ONE has a doctorate. They were recently accredited for the first time (all good j-schools are) based on promises by the USD administration that the faculty would grow and more money would be provided to beef things up. The administration has now reneged on those promises. USD's journalism program will probably not be re-accredited or, if it is, it will be conditional on more money and faculty lines being provided. That is unlikely, according to my sources there. It's not a pretty picture, and I'm told that there are similar problems with funding and faculty departures across the USD campus.

Contrast that with SDSU journalism. They have a newly remodeled facility, paid for by Anson and Ada May Yeager. There are 10 faculty members, including six with doctorates. The department has been continuously accredited since accreditation began in 1948. Look at the staffs of newspapers in the region and you'll find many, many SDSU graduates and darned few from USD. SDSU's program has a truly national reputation for quality and has produced many outstanding graduates over the years."

Don't get me wrong, I think USD is a fine little school. We just happen to be bigger AND better. ;) ;D

I'm sorry I thought this was an athletics based web site, oh wait it is. ;)

Frozen, it's a chat board and I don't really want to get into a deep discussion on the merits or geographic limitations of various Universities. I just wanted to have a little fun and throw some quick facts at you. Have a good night. ;D

And you are a SDSU grad no aren't you? Lots of bias there. You can dig up articles and statistics that make your point, because of that bias.

I have no affilation with the State of South Dakota. Bias are loaded with provincialism and myopia.

The problem with about 1/2 of the US states regarding the 2-Flagship problem is that there is this belittling of the other flagship, like they don't exist. Its a world of a everlasting dichotomy. Well, the world is not a dichotomy. If I recognize a school for having, lets say Tom Brokaw as an allum, you get bent out of shape, because the other half of the dichotomy is not being recognized.

Okay, not to inflated the red-state/blue state dichotomy this country has now, here's your SDSU allum:

Tom Daschle

There so that matches the USD Tom Brokaw.

Now I think that's impressive. You know why. I can't remember his name, but the US Senator from South Dakota who was in the seat that US Senator Tim Johnson currently holds. Can't remember his name. He was Senator from SD in that seat up until the 90's.

Well he is an allumnus of Harvard. Well guess what, despite this, a newspaper in Des Moines, IA in 1995 voted him the dumbest US Senator. They thought Daschle was quite a leap and loads more intelligent than that Harvard grad, and he is an allum of SDSU. That and he was, for a while the Senate Majority and Minority Leader. Too bad you didn't reelect him.

I don't buy into these dichotomies. You should relax your rivalry with USD and root for them when they don't play SDSU, because, they have South Dakota in their name and if they can do well, then its all good for the state of South Dakota. The same with USD fans. They should root for SDSU when they don't play them. But you probably diss them so much that you wish they would lose all their games.

So throw out your South Dakota dichotomy, and root for USD when they are not playing SDSU.

Yes, but there is a relationship with those merits and following. Otherwise, why isn't the Eastern Washington University outdrawing Washington State University?

There are deep meanings behind it. Think about it.

Frozen,

You need to lay off the caffeine and lighten up. ;) Please show more where I said anything bad about Tom. My dad went to HS with him. I was simply pointing out that USD does not have a "prestigious journalism program".

The Senator you are thinking of is Larry Pressler, good guy. Beyond going to Harvard he also went to USD for his under grad.

You are right I am a SDSU Alum and I will take your word for it that you "have no affilation with the State of South Dakota". You also don't have many facts and are making tons of assumptions. You assume that USD has a great history because they have been around since 1862. I made no arguement on your point of thier history. I merely pointed out that although they were founded in 1862 they didn't hold a class until 1882. You assumed that the journalism department must be prestigious simply because two alums are recognizable to you, when the facts don't support that assertion. The list goes on and on. When your assumptions are flawed due to a lack of factual knowledge I help by providing some. I'm sorry if that offends you.

Let me end by saying I only joined this little party because a few on this thread wondered why USD freshmen enrollment is so small. I provided factual numbers when others were guessing at that number. If you want to sing the praises of USD by all means do so, but go get some facts. They have plenty of things to be proud of you, I think (I just couldn't help myself ;) ), you don't have to make assumptions that aren't true.

Last assumption is that I need to "throw out your South Dakota dichotomy, and root for USD when they are not playing SDSU." One, we really don't play each other anymore. Two, I actually went to both schools (SDSU undergrad, USD grad) so you have no idea if I root for them or not. You assume because I take a few jabs at them that I don't. Well at least you got one right. ;D

Seriously, I have no interest in engaging you in a serious exchange of ideas. I don’t have the time and after all this is an internet bulletin board not a DC think tank. Have a good day. ;D

I can dig up articles and statistics because I know how to use reference materials. I use them because I think facts are better then pure speculation and so I use facts to support my point of view.

Is your point that your factless point of view is better because you have no ties to either school? Just wondering?

Sorry I re-read your post and this line did astound me, and I felt I needed to respond. I'm done. Have a nice weekend.

But your facts, or conversation with another professor on the journalism school isn't a fact either. Its an opinion.

I have seen the USD journalism program hold a forum or a summit on C-SPAN before, where important national journalists, like Cokie Roberts was speaking.

When you mention a cut in a program at USD, what about cuts at SDSU? Are there any cuts there? South Dakota is a small state. Most states are having budget issues. Public universities go through cuts. Is it politically feasible to target cuts at USD and not have any at SDSU?

Sure you went to both schools, but its usually the case that one that goes to one schools prefers one over the other. I've seen it with other people in other states with this dichotomy of 2-flagships and they went to both schools.

What I am getting at is the designed capacity of the school and that reflects size. Plus the 850 South Dakotans that attend the University of Minnesota through the reprocity program and the 450 South Dakotans that attend the University of Nebraska-Lincoln (South Dakota is only 2nd to Nebraska of those that attend the University of Nebraska).

The University of South Dakota is in Vermillion. That community is located along the Missouri River. A number of communities in Iowa along the Missouri River, in the Missouri River valley are located entirely in the federally-recognized flood plain. That means in order to excavate dirt and to build any structure in a federal flood plain you have to get a permit. I don't know how much of Vermillion, or the USD campus is in the Federal Flood Plain, but it might cause it to have limitations in expanding the university. So its capacity may be smaller than SDSU. And the state may have expanded SDSU for this reason. There are more dormitories on the SDSU campus than USD. The dormitories at USD are at near capacity and the SDSU ones are at 96% capacity. The reason why SDSU is bigger is most likely related to a designed capacity.

Yes, I think not being tied to the state gives me an idenpendent look on these schools. If you were promoting USD more over SDSU, I would give you statistics that would balance the conversation that would show SDSU's merits.

Frozen Tundra:

I think you are way over-estimating the potential draw of the U of Minn for NoDak/SoDak students. First, plains culture is not elitist, unlike the east coast where it is practically a disgrace to go to a public university. Second, if a high schools student from ND or SD wanted to go to attend a higher "status" university, they generally have numerous choices because of geographical diversity in the admissions process. Finally, UND, NDSU, and SDSU are attractive to many Minnesotan's because of the size of the campuses and communities, safety, and cost. U of Minn is also seen as too much of a commuter campus. Minnesota students, many from the Twin Cities, make up at least 30% of the populations at UND and NDSU.

Your talking to someone who's from the Great Plains.

Every state has their share of people that what to major in artsy fartsy stuff. Just because your from a Dakota state, doesn't mean everything is practical minded. Who do you think Joni Mitchell is? She from the Great Plains. Canadian Plains. Saskatechwan. Neil Young anyone? He's from Winnipeg. Willa Cather? Nebraskan. The Great Plains is alive with artsy fartsy types.

So, UMinn is in Minneapolis. Its bound to get a few people from the twin cities. But it also a highly regarded U. If people live in Minneapolis, its hard to look at statistics on enrollment and say they live there because they are from there or they live there because they go to school there. Irregardless, its not a University of Louisville nor a University of Memphis, University of Houston, Boise State. They don't teach Truck Driving 101, or 351 at the University of Minnesota. At Boise State they do. Its a highly regarded public research university, in the Big 10 with 45K students. They don't teach Truck Driving, but they do educate PhD's in Chemical Engineering, Literature, Archeology, Theater, Architecture, Economics, Horticulture, Veterinarians, Jewish Studies, Asian Studies. See, you name it. Its there. Its not Boise State. Its more like the University of Illinois.

No, the UND and NDSU enrollments from Minnesota. Have your looked across the Red River of the North? Moorhead? East Grand Forks? The 2 universities are in close proximity to Minnesota towns that are going to attract students to those flagships, as its closer to home.

I think that we can both agree, in general, that U of Minn is much more attractive to a potential graduate or professional student than dakota schools. For undergraduate studies, the eccentric types that may be attracted to U of M also serve to repel more mainstream students. Madison's general campus environment, even with its counter cultural leanings, are really much more attractive to the average student, both grad and undergrad, IMO.

But you see, there's even these activist types at the University of North Dakota:

http://www.und.edu/history/1970s.htm

It's following that typical "University of's _______" being generally more liberal/activists, and the "___________ State University" of being the more pragmatists.

I thought I was bad at thread drift. :-X

BTW, Montana, University of, tends to keep it tight, and it'll probably be tighter after their million-dollar deficit fiasco. I don't see them willingly joining a division of the BSC or a new conference with the Dakota schools. The proximity to Cheney, Pocatello, and Ogden are important to them, and they always bring in another California school in a given year. Portland and Sac, for that matter, make valuable recruiting trips.